Why have incels gotten so much attention?

[Ryika]

I find your level of aggression here hard to understand.
There has been, for multiple generations by now, this cultural current of straight women dismissing - ostensibly at least - men in general for vague reasons of self-actualisation.
You know, this whole nonsense about bouble baths and cats and unnecessarily large wine glasses.
At the same time there is this overemphasis in our cultures on men finding women who attach themselves to them and, for that matter, plain access to sex.
You see this reflected in the fact that even left-of-centre characters (say on this board) have nothing better to do than to question the sexual market value of anybody they disagree with.
This is, in fact, toxic.
And above all this obsession about sex obviously is the transcended version of the horrible and abusive obsession about marriage of eras past.
Mgtow-ism is a plausible, even logical, reaction to all of this. Arguable a necessary and healthy one.

I have no problem with the "canonized" philosophy of MGTOW. If a person decides that they prefer living on their own, makes their own goals and draws the energy from that to achieve whatever they want to achieve, then good for them.

However, that is not the MGTOW movement as it exists right now. If you go some of the big mgtow hubs like r/MGTOW, or watch some of the popular MGTOW channels on youtube, most of what you'll see is actual misogyny, 2000 different posts where individual women have done something bad that is then generalized on women as a whole, and a whole universe of pseudo-science and general negativity.

 

[Hygro]

They're not nuts; they're experiencing a form of suffering that's taboo to talk about, and are reacting as suffering people usually do when they aren't so much as allowed to express their suffering. SlateStarCodex has a good writeup on the phenomenon.

Great article.

MGTOW is to MRAs what radical feminists are to feminism. I'm eagerly waiting for what ever is the lesbian feminism of the MRA movement.

A modern romanticization of Greek warrior lover culture.

I should also have said that like MRAs, the common perception of them (incels) is driven entirely by what their political opponents say about them.

Yeah. This extends to a lot of things and if one ever wonders why “people don’t get it” then start with yourself and see if you understanding of an out-group comes from discussions with fellows from your in group.

 

[Peuri]

A modern romanticization of Greek warrior lover culture.

Yes! Awesome. Theban sacred band, with Tom of Finland aesthethics.

 

[HoloDoc]

You know perfectly well they were, and that I have made thousands of posts about them right here. But i'm banned from posting at the Guardian because I openly disagree with feminists. Tim apparently thinks i'm a Conservative ( ) simply because I disagree with feminist ideas about society.

I stand by what I said: people really do seem to be forgetting what the left is about.

Hang on, I literally called for Katherine Murphy to be "taken out back and put down" for bias, repeatedly, in her own articles, and I was never banned. I suspect you made comments a wee bit more incendiary than you're letting on.

"Disagreeing with feminist ideas about society" is basically code for; "women are less important than men, and need to accept this and make me a sandwich."

 

[HoloDoc]

Yes! Awesome. Theban sacred band, with Tom of Finland aesthethics.

Isn't Milo Pedonopoulos already doing that, with his desire to rape little boys to prove his masculinity?

 

[Ryika]

Huh?
But isn't that mirroring the discrepancy "Feminism" v feminism rather nicely?

Yeah. As you should now, I have nothing nice to say about the current-day feminism movement either.

The one redeeming factor that Feminism has and MGTOW doesn't have, is that independent from the lunacy that has taken over the feminist spaces of the internet, there are some pretty damn good academics who are doing actual work.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Yeah. As you should now, I have nothing nice to say about the current-day feminism movement either.

The one redeeming factor that Feminism has and MGTOW doesn't have, is that independent from the lunacy that has taken over the feminist spaces of the internet, there are some pretty damn good academics who are doing actual work.

There is a second redeeming factor, in that feminism arises from an actual position of forced subservience while any "men's equality" movement is inherently false since equality is specifically not what they are striving for. The mechanisms of feminism can be faulted, but it isn't inherently false in its objective.

 

[Peuri]

Isn't Milo Pedonopoulos already doing that, with his desire to rape little boys to prove his masculinity?

Wasn't he more on the receiving end though?

 

[HoloDoc]

Wasn't he more on the receiving end though?

Like most of these so-called alpha males who degrade women and minorities and constantly brag about their own privilege, he does seem more likely to be the bottom in any actual relationship. Including with a woman.

 

[Peuri]

There is a second redeeming factor, in that feminism arises from an actual position of forced subservience while any "men's equality" movement is inherently false since equality is specifically not what they are striving for. The mechanisms of feminism can be faulted, but it isn't inherently false in its objective.

But there are legitimate men's issues. The problem with the sort of buzzfeed feminism is that the gendered system of the past is portrayed as one sided oppression of males over women, while the gendered system had roles for both sexes. Both of which were constricting in different ways. Women have been more and more freed from those roles, where as for men the roles have not opened as much. Such issues can also be discussed within feminism.

 

[Ryika]

There is a second redeeming factor, in that feminism arises from an actual position of forced subservience while any "men's equality" movement is inherently false since equality is specifically not what they are striving for. The mechanisms of feminism can be faulted, but it isn't inherently false in its objective.

MGTOW is not even a "men's equality" movement, so I'm not sure what you're referring to.

But in general.. The MRM is a "men's equality" movement, and while I also don't have a lot of good things to say about them either (a consistent theme for ideological groups, it seems), in theory, they may very well have some valid points. "Equality" is not just measured on the grand scale, even if women as a group are "overall 12% disadvantaged when compared to men", there may still be issues where either men as a group, or specific subgroups of men, are disadvantaged and those disadvantages can and should be tackled, even if men are in the "privileged position".

Ironically i would claim the same point.

I don't see how you could. There is no academic field called "MGTOW".

 

[MaryKB]

Oh I definitely agree some subsets of men are disadvantaged and need help, such as black men, homosexual men, transgender men, and so on, but men's problems are caused by other men, not women. And of course you have toxic masculinity which hurts men, but that itself is another form of misogyny (you shouldn't be weak and soft like women!)

From my perspective, groups like men going their own way and incels are all types of "men's rights activists", and they're all misogynists, they're all about restoring men's "rights" over women and some sort of weird believe in some inherent right to male dominance, and how women are too uppity and such because we demand actual equality.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

But there are legitimate men's issues. The problem with the sort of buzzfeed feminism is that the gendered system of the past is portrayed as one sided oppression of males over women, while the gendered system had roles for both sexes. Both of which were constricting in different ways. Women have been more and more freed from those roles, where as for men the roles have not opened as much. Such issues can also be discussed within feminism.

There are legitimate men's issues, and there is absolutely no one standing in the way of addressing them. There is no one who has the power to obstruct addressing them even if there were anyone so inclined. That's the core difference between addressing women's issues and addressing men's issues. Addressing men's issues is universally regarded as a good idea, while addressing women's issues is a direct challenge to men since many women's issues have to do with inequities that are beneficial to men.

@MaryKB ...liking that post was insufficient. That is brilliant.

 

[HoloDoc]

But there are legitimate men's issues. The problem with the sort of buzzfeed feminism is that the gendered system of the past is portrayed as one sided oppression of males over women, while the gendered system had roles for both sexes. Both of which were constricting in different ways. Women have been more and more freed from those roles, where as for men the roles have not opened as much. Such issues can also be discussed within feminism.

This is true. Childcare and men's role in the family is a big one of these. As a single parent, I've grappled with this for years.

 

[Narz]

Oh I definitely agree some subsets of men are disadvantaged and need help, such as black men, homosexual men, transgender men, and so on, but men's problems are caused by other men, not women. And of course you have toxic masculinity which hurts men, but that itself is another form of misogyny (you shouldn't be weak and soft like women!)

From my perspective, groups like men going their own way and incels are all types of "men's rights activists", and they're all misogynists, they're all about restoring men's "rights" over women and some sort of weird believe in some inherent right to male dominance, and how women are too uppity and such because we demand actual equality.

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Clearly you're not educated.

Men get way more jail time for same crimes and get shafted in family court.

There are issues if anyone cares to learn about them but very few do.

But its men's job to be stoic. Complaining is not for us.

Men are socially shamed for whining unless they're in a class that's allowed to. May be partially a good thing tho.

 

[caketastydelish]

There are legitimate men's issues, and there is absolutely no one standing in the way of addressing them. There is no one who has the power to obstruct addressing them even if there were anyone so inclined. That's the core difference between addressing women's issues and addressing men's issues. Addressing men's issues is universally regarded as a good idea, while addressing women's issues is a direct challenge to men since many women's issues have to do with inequities that are beneficial to men.

Counterpoints:

1) in universities academia is overwhelmingly from a feminist/female perspective. "men's rights" or "men' issues" get no credence whatsoever. Mainstream academia overwhelmingly sides with feminists. And it also overwhelmingly agrees with the worldview that men get all the advantages and women are oppressed. Any disadvantages men may or may not have doesn't even get discussed whatsoever.

2) The mainstream media routinely mocks men's rights groups whenever they mention them (SNL, late night talk shows, mainstream news outlets, etc)

3) government funding. As one example out of countless ones, notice that the Obama administration had an entire 'women and girls' organization within it with absolutely no equivalent for 'men and boys' whatsoever. Trump, the supposedly male supremacist president doesn't have anything for women and girls... but nothing for men and boys either.

The establishment, in terms of those three major things (universities, the media, the government) is on the feminist's side and thinks very poorly of men's rights groups. I don't see how you could possibly say the feminists are the ones being faced with more fierce opposition. The MRA's have a surprisingly large amount of traction considering they're nothing more than a grassroots movement, but that doesn't mean they don't face opposition.

 

[Synobun]

Clearly you're not educated.

Men get way more jail time for same crimes and get shafted in family court.

There are issues if anyone cares to learn about them but very few do.

But its men's job to be stoic. Complaining is not for us.

Men are socially shamed for whining unless they're in a class that's allowed to. May be partially a good thing tho.

Men decide that.

 

[Ryika]

Oh I definitely agree some subsets of men are disadvantaged and need help, such as black men, homosexual men, transgender men, and so on, but men's problems are caused by other men, not women.

I'm surprised that "poor men" didn't make that list. Quite an oversight, given that homeless people are mostly men.

Your overreaching argument is easy to disprove however, all I need to do is to remind you of the existence of TERFs, Trans-Exclusionary Radical Feminists: A subset of almost exclusively female feminists, who neither like M2F- nor F2M-trans individuals.

And of course you have toxic masculinity which hurts men, but that itself is another form of misogyny (you shouldn't be weak and soft like women!)

Women generally don't like weak or "unmanly" men either. How often do you see women saying "Where have all the good men gone?", or see them make fun of the nerdy guy who enjoys playing video games a bit too much for his age?

Overall, your ideological need to pose men as the sole perpetrators and women as the sole victims has little to do with reality.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Men get way more jail time for same crimes and get shafted in family court.

I repeat, no one is standing in the way of addressing those issues. There is no organized resistance among women trying to prevent addressing those issues. One of those issues, by the way, is a misrepresentation. Men are usually not awarded with what they want in family court, but generally speaking they aren't qualified to get what they are asking for.

 

[Narz]

Men decide that.

Decide what?