Why have incels gotten so much attention?

Well now you know someone that doesn't fit that narrative.

Cool. Problem is that a large number of anecdotes more closely resembles data than a single anecdote does, and since there is precious little actual data that's gonna throw a wrench in the "men get shafted in family court" issue...as does pretending that the actual issue is "men get shafted." The actual issue is that family court, in a very real sense, requires judges to rule in a vacuum of information. You walk in, your ex walks in, you give wildly disparate descriptions of the situation, and generally with no additional information or investigation a judge makes a ruling...and the docket usually calls for him amking that ruling after about thirty seconds of "deliberation." Calling that "men get shafted" based on your anecdote does nothing to push for any effective solution.
 
And why are women seen as less threatening than men?
Lower potential for aggression, intelligence is more distributed towards the medium which leads to fewer cases of extreme violence that involve women, smaller bodies, rounder, less imposing forms, softer voices...
 
I can get that 'women are seen as less threatening than men' but that doesn't change the fact that if you commit a crime you should get the same punishment as the other 50% of the population.

'women are seen as less threatening than men' is an argument you could make that fewer women would commit said crimes in the first place... but those who specifically do should get the same punishment as the men who do.

Just my opinion, of course.
 
These last pages man.

Feminism is a broad category. Plenty of feminists fight fairly for the rights of all sexes and gender identities. Some embrace a generalist reaction against MRAs at large. This is often fair as many MRAs are incredibly toxic people with little real perspective about what women face. These MRAs stand in principal opposition to feminism and have no real understanding of our current culture and history and should naturally be dealt with. But true feminism should take male issues into consideration, even if most of the fight is about female liberation. Universal opposition, mockery and denial towards male issues is a lesser problem than universal opposition, mockery and denial towards female issues, but it is still a problem. I like what Mary writes but while the bottle meme is hilarious, it undercuts suffering that's experienced and real, even if it's sparse contrary to issues for the female sex.
 
Ok all the hits I’ve seen on google by feminists are saying at the very least it’s problematic or harmful for men to do it to women of color or for gay white men to do it gay men of color.

I haven’t anything that makes the same assertion if it’s a white female doing it to a man of color.

Edit: the personal experience I’m talking about.


She didn’t give a **** about me as a person or human being. She’d just never been a guy of middle eastern ancestry so used me as a bucket list. She had expectations of me based on racial stereotypes that are in no way shape or form what I actually am. She even admitted to after it ended that she was partially motivated by middle eastern male customers being dicks to her where she worked and in “your culture they teach you not you do this and sleep around easily so you betrayed them” (her words not mine.)

I also lost my virginity to this girl. I was genuinely hurt.

https://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/2013/08/2013823182256649433.html

Also internal academic debate regarding orientalism, and in particular Said's excellent Orientalism (mentioned and linked at the top of the article) would be good places for you to start.

https://www.wweek.com/culture/2017/...-pleasure-on-race-fetish-and-objectification/

https://www.jstor.org/stable/pdf/466835.pdf

http://gal-dem.com/chocolate-city-care-fetishisation-black-men/

https://blackwomenofbrazil.co/sexua...tion-of-the-black-male-body-in-brazil-part-1/

Lower potential for aggression, intelligence is more distributed towards the medium which leads to fewer cases of extreme violence that involve women, smaller bodies, rounder, less imposing forms, softer voices...

But then surely we would also see lighter penalties for men with smaller bodies/frames or softer voices?

Also relevant literature:

https://www.jstor.org/stable/448831?seq=1#metadata_info_tab_contents
 
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I can get that 'women are seen as less threatening than men' but that doesn't change the fact that if you commit a crime you should get the same punishment as the other 50% of the population.

'women are seen as less threatening than men' is an argument you could make that fewer women would commit said crimes in the first place... but those who specifically do should get the same punishment as the men who do.

Just my opinion, of course.

This is dependent on the assumption that punishment is the only objective of incarceration. Since at the very least lip service is paid to rehabilitation, and without question 'protection of the public' is a widely cited purpose, the argument falls apart. "Women are less threatening" plus "incarceration is needed to protect society" inevitably points to men being sentenced more harshly than women. Even though they may have already committed crimes they are still "less dangerous to society."
 
Incels get much attention? Where, what? Did I miss something?

If you go some of the big mgtow hubs like r/MGTOW, or watch some of the popular MGTOW channels on youtube

When I read this, I sometimes wonder if some things are actually happening in RL, or if some of the fuzz created is really only created by people saying weird stuff online, without anything actually happening.

I'm also a bit confused that "the feminist" and "the MRA" (or Incel or MGTOW) are being pulled out of their drawers in the discussion here.
Do they actually exist in RL?
I guess my environment is a bit low in nutty people, because I never meet such people, it's always only BS on the internet.
 
Which genes, specifically?

I can't simply assume that sexual dimorphism might be connected to genes?


You don't see any irony in using a single example of a white person using racial stereotypes to claim that the stereotypes infect Westerners everywhere? (And hey, why not throw in some unrelated demonization of Israelis while you're at it, because that's what it really is all about).

EDIT: You do understand that literally the entire Arab world does this to Israelis and Jews?
 
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This is dependent on the assumption that punishment is the only objective of incarceration. Since at the very least lip service is paid to rehabilitation, and without question 'protection of the public' is a widely cited purpose, the argument falls apart. "Women are less threatening" plus "incarceration is needed to protect society" inevitably points to men being sentenced more harshly than women. Even though they may have already committed crimes they are still "less dangerous to society."
You been doing yoga Tim cuz that's quite a stretchhhhhhhhhhhhh?

The idea that because women are physically meeker they are less dangerous is... well something I believed most of my life and man did I pay for it. :eek: #maletears
 
This is dependent on the assumption that punishment is the only objective of incarceration. Since at the very least lip service is paid to rehabilitation, and without question 'protection of the public' is a widely cited purpose, the argument falls apart. "Women are less threatening" plus "incarceration is needed to protect society" inevitably points to men being sentenced more harshly than women. Even though they may have already committed crimes they are still "less dangerous to society."

Women at large being less dangerous applies to women who haven't committed crimes in the first place... and it is true that more men commit crimes proportionally than women. Still, those who do deserve to be treated the same. Be fair.

edit: on a per capita bases blacks commit more crimes than whites but I don't think you would find it fair for blacks to be jailed longer for the same thing either, would you?
 
This is dependent on the assumption that punishment is the only objective of incarceration. Since at the very least lip service is paid to rehabilitation, and without question 'protection of the public' is a widely cited purpose, the argument falls apart. "Women are less threatening" plus "incarceration is needed to protect society" inevitably points to men being sentenced more harshly than women. Even though they may have already committed crimes they are still "less dangerous to society."
How threatening a person seems to a judge or jury and how much of a threat to society they actually are, are two different things. If a woman commits a crime, shows the same kind of ruthlessness as a man who commits the same crime, but then is being seen as less capable of repeating such crimes and thus, gets a lower sentence than the man who committed the same crime, then that's discrimination by gender and should be addressed. Either she is serving fewer years than are required for rehabilitation to take place, or he is serving extra years for no reason at all.

But then surely we would also see lighter penalties for men with smaller bodies/frames or softer voices?
I know I've read a study that concluded that smaller men get lighter sentences a while ago, so I'm pretty confident that we'd see those differences in other attributes as well if we analyzed the data.
 
[QUOTE="Owen Glyndwr, post: 15241116, member: 144573"
But then surely we would also see lighter penalties for men with smaller bodies/frames or softer voices?[/QUOTE]
Oh I'm sure we do (especially with assault) but it's unlikely anyone will study that.
 
I can't simply assume that sexual dimorphism might be connected to genes?

If it's a question of body size/build/voice then surely we should expect to see the same disparity reflected in smaller-stature men?
 
You been doing yoga Tim cuz that's quite a stretchhhhhhhhhhhhh

The idea that because women are physically meeker they are less dangerous is... well something I believed most of my life and man did I pay for it. :eek: #maletears

When I was on supervised release I had federal agents closely observing me. It would have been difficult for me to acquire a firearm or other practical weapon, and equally challenging to maintain possession of it without getting a rapid return ticket to prison. But I was still demonstrably capable of returning to my criminal lifestyle, because I was still six three and was actually in much more effective physical condition than I was in before I went to prison. In the world of violent crime lack of physical size is a devastating handicap that generally can only be overcome through weaponry, so, yeah, even felonious women are less dangerous as long as they are under supervision...which upon release they will be.
 
Cool. Problem is that a large number of anecdotes more closely resembles data than a single anecdote does, and since there is precious little actual data that's gonna throw a wrench in the "men get shafted in family court" issue...as does pretending that the actual issue is "men get shafted." The actual issue is that family court, in a very real sense, requires judges to rule in a vacuum of information. You walk in, your ex walks in, you give wildly disparate descriptions of the situation, and generally with no additional information or investigation a judge makes a ruling...and the docket usually calls for him amking that ruling after about thirty seconds of "deliberation."
Now you're talking about data but you said before you never looked at any data. And yes family court pretty much sucks because it's all he-said/she-said and as no one here is even denying women tend to be better at garning empathy/appearing believable which gives them an advantage in court.

Calling that "men get shafted" based on your anecdote does nothing to push for any effective solution.
So you're saying when people deal with injustice they should keep it to themselves?

I mean mostly I do but in this thread I couldn't resist.
 
@caketastydelish if you're really interested in hearing about women's perspectives, my first suggestion is to always be open minded and listen and not try to dictate conversation, or ask loaded questions. If you'd really be interested in talking about my views and experiences, please feel free to start a conversation with me, I have a feeling a talk like that might be far more productive privately.

I feel though as a basic thing, you're sort of missing there's still a vast power imbalance, because of historical male control over women that's still nowhere near to equal today. Men still afford higher respect to men of color than to white women.

I'll always remember a conversation I had with my father when I was younger, sometime in the 1990s. I don't remember how my talk with him started, but I remember he was telling me about American history, and he said there'd never been either a black president nor a woman president. And I asked him which he thought they'd have first, and he told me he had absolutely no doubt I'd see a black man as president before a woman, and of course he was absolutely right. I really suggest you think deeply about what that means.

I have a coworker on my team, he's been on my team for about a year and a half now, and he's from Africa. He speaks perfect English, but his accent is very thick, and while I get along very well with him and his family, I'd be lying if I said he wasn't mostly useless as a colleague. He's kind to me privately, but well honestly I do almost everything for him, and he always is contacting me for every question he has on how to do things, and I usually need to end up making programs and reports for him, and fixing things, and proverbially I have to hold his hand to walk him through basic tasks even now. And he's supposed to back me up on my reports when I'm taking a vacation, but he often calls me when I'm off work for things he should be able to figure out for himself. Well anyways, between him and myself, who do you think other managers are giving credit to and offering advancement opportunities to?

I'm sorry for how your girlfriend treated you, and I can imagine how hurtful that must've felt and also humiliating, and I agree it's problematic for anyone to have to go through something like that. I do believe you're still not really understanding power imbalances between men and women.

I also was in an interracial relationship with my long term boyfriend, he was of Indian ethnicity (but he was born and raised in Canada), and things got really bad between he and I. Both men and women are conditioned from an early age how women have certain expectations in relationships of a subservient role, and it took me a long time to break out of that mindset (many women haven't and still think that's natural order, that's why you see so many women still siding with misogynists), and for years I basically lived as his slave. I had a very difficult time getting myself out of my situation, and my perspective on life really changed a lot as a result. Of course you'll see outlier examples of things being different, but overwhelmingly women are treated as inferior by men still.

@Angst I feel a big problem is you so often see claims about "But what about the men?!" used to obfuscate women's issues and to control conversations and redirect back to being male-centric. In my mind "men's rights activism" is completely sexist at its core and is all about countering women's progress, because really as an entire group men don't have any rights at risk (unless you count things like the "right" to abuse and rape women, and have no consequences for mistreatment of women, and be entitled to dominate everything always), and especially no rights being oppressed by women. And really I feel that's what's really wrong, is they blame women for their problems, which is complete and utter nonsense, any problems they face as a group are from other men. And I fully support activism for black men, homosexual men, transgender men, and such, but again women aren't problems for those men, other men are.
 
If it's a question of body size/build/voice then surely we should expect to see the same disparity reflected in smaller-stature men?

I didn't claim any such thing. Still awaiting your apology for linking to Israel-hate.
 
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