Why I think cloning is wrong

[Dr Tiny]

5. If having sex with a clone is wrong, then it's unfair to a clone to make him since the clone wouldn't be able to morally have sex with anyone.

This step makes no sense to me. As I see it:-
Having sex with my daughter is wrong for moral, legal and genetic reasons
I would also consider it also wrong for the same reasons to have sex with a clone of my daughter.
I do not consider it morally wrong to have sex with someone elses daughter i.e. my wife, it is somewhat vital to the continuation of the species afterall. Therefore I do not see how it would be wrong to have sex with a clone of someone elses daughter (clone of my wife), assuming the orignal wasn't around to raise some violent objections
Therefore I can still have sex with a clone as long as it is not a clone of a close* family member.

*where close is whatever your prefered definition of close is.

 

[anarres]

Gosh, don't confuse poor ceirdan with logic. :shakehead

Come on guys - I just read the opening post and I could see the proof right in front of me! You guys just need too many steps filling in for you.

 

[Che Guava]

Here's an enlightening question.

What if someone totally unrelated and totally different DNA wise, gets plastic surgery and is made to look EXACTLY LIKE your close relation? (adult son, daughter, brother, sister, father, mother -- whatever would be considered wrong incest by you)

Would you say THAT would be wrong and if so why?

That would be wrong for another reason entirely: someone has gone through the trouble of having plastic surgery to look like your sibling in some ridiculous attempt, I can only assume, to satisfy thier deep-seeded incest fetish.

 

[Kayak]

Quick reply before I go to a lecture - if someone completely unrelated to you was cloned, does everyone posting here think sex with THAT clone would be wrong? If yes then I presume it's because you've managed to follow Cierdan that clone sex is wrong (therefore cloning is wrong), if no, then I kind of think it means you disagree with Cierdan's conclusion that sex with clones is wrong. I say it all comes back to your definition of incest, which since I don't agree with, I don't agree with your logical chain.

Ah, thank you Sophie. I have been keeping this argument in my back pocket for a while in this discussion. It is time to raise it.
Cierdan you have managed to eliminate your own possibility here. Work your equation backward. By your reasoning the only posibility would be that in this case sex with the clone of your daughter is wrong because genetic incest (my definition) is wrong. This is true (applying your assumptions) for this case only, see Sophie's proposal above.

 

[wit>trope]

Ah, thank you Sophie. I have been keeping this argument in my back pocket for a while in this discussion. It is time to raise it.
Cierdan you have managed to eliminate your own possibility here. Work your equation backward. By your reasoning the only posibility would be that in this case sex with the clone of your daughter is wrong because genetic incest (my definition) is wrong. This is true (applying your assumptions) for this case only, see Sophie's proposal above.

Wow I didn't know you were this smart!

The question is which do think you is more convincing?:

1) The clone of the daughter is not a daughter.
2) Sex with a clone is not wrong.

If you go with (2), then you would conclude more or less that the clone of the daughter is a daughter. OTOH, if you think (1) is more convincing, then you would conclude that sex with a clone is wrong.

So that boils the whole thread down to those two options. You and sophie must be super smart

 

[Kayak]

Wow I didn't know you were this smart!

The question is which do think you is more convincing?:

1) The clone of the daughter is not a daughter.
2) Sex with a clone is not wrong.

If you go with (2), then you would conclude more or less that the clone of the daughter is a daughter. OTOH, if you think (1) is more convincing, then you would conclude that sex with a clone is wrong.

So that boils the whole thread down to those two options. You and sophie must be super smart

Your condescending attitude aside. How about if I go for both?

 

[wit>trope]

kayak, complimenting you is like complimenting a woman about her weight: "You've lost a lot of weight!" "Since when did I look like a cow?"

You can't reject both (note that Sophie and others didn't reject both) because mere DNA-similiarity can happen even if extremely extremely rarely between very unrelated persons as already acknowledged by Sophie earlier in the thread.

 

[Kayak]

kayak, complimenting you is like complimenting a woman about her weight: "You've lost a lot of weight!" "Since when did I look like a cow?"

You can't reject both (note that Sophie and others didn't reject both) because mere DNA-similiarity can happen even if extremely extremely rarely between very unrelated persons as already acknowledged by Sophie earlier in the thread.

The problem is that your decision set is not mutually exclusive. If one were to choose 1 it in no way means that 2 is incorrect. And you haven't answered Sophie's question.

 

[HannibalBarka]

If sex with the clone of the child is wrong it has to be wrong FOR SOME REASON. Some FACT has to MAKE it wrong. It can't be the fact that the clone is your child -- since the clone ISN'T your child. So what possible FACT could MAKE it wrong? The only possibility left is the underlying act of cloning. Having sex with a cloned person must somehow be wrong.

what makes you think that this is the only possibility left?

 

[wit>trope]

what makes you think that this is the only possibility left?

OK, then what other possibility would you suggest?

 

[HannibalBarka]

OK, then what other possibility would you suggest?

Logically, unless you demonstrate that:

1. this possibility is among the possible solutions (in the group that constitues the possible solution)
2. all the other are proven to be not be a solution
3. there is a solution

other wise you're logic does not stand.

And I did not see that this possibility is among the possible solutions more than : because the sky is blue

 

[carlosMM]

The only possibility left is the underlying act of cloning. Having sex with a cloned person must somehow be wrong.

aside from all your false assumptions - this is the heart of the matter. You WANT cloning to be wrong and twist facts until it is

 

[Rambuchan]

For the record: I believe there is nothing wrong with it at all. In fact, they've had a bad press in recent years. From Stephen King's "It" to accusations of paedophilia, they are generally held to be suspicious and deviant characters. However, they have played a long and important role in history, both socially and politically. From humorous advisors to rulers since antiquity (whose antics may have served as the only form of dissent), they have now become nothing but entertainers at children's parties. It's sad.

 

[anarres]

Logically, unless you demonstrate that:

1. this possibility is among the possible solutions (in the group that constitues the possible solution)
2. all the other are proven to be not be a solution
3. there is a solution

other wise you're logic does not stand.

And I did not see that this possibility is among the possible solutions more than : because the sky is blue

Don't use the basic tenants of logic with him - he's got an IQ of 170 you know!!

FWIW I've shown this thread to many people at work and they simply can't believe anyone can get the concept of a logical proof so utterly and completely back to front!!!

It's the repeated use of the word "proof" in a pseudo-logical context (i.e. no basis in logic theory but a superficial use of some terms from logic) that really causes the belly-laughs though.

 

[Kayak]

Don't use the basic tenants of logic with him - he's got an IQ of 170 you know!!

FWIW I've shown this thread to many people at work and they simply can't believe anyone can get the concept of a logical proof so utterly and completely back to front!!!

It's the repeated use of the word "proof" in a pseudo-logical context (i.e. no basis in logic theory but a superficial use of some terms from logic) that really causes the belly-laughs though.

What. I like rolling big rocks uphill.

 

[nonconformist]

What if someone totally unrelated and totally different DNA wise, gets plastic surgery and is made to look EXACTLY LIKE your close relation? (adult son, daughter, brother, sister, father, mother -- whatever would be considered wrong incest by you)

I've not laughed this hard for a long time.

 

[De Lorimier]

For the record: I believe there is nothing wrong with it at all. In fact, they've had a bad press in recent years. From Stephen King's "It" to accusations of paedophilia, they are generally held to be suspicious and deviant characters. However, they have played a long and important role in history, both socially and politically. From humorous advisors to rulers since antiquity (whose antics may have served as the only form of dissent), they have now become nothing but entertainers at children's parties. It's sad.

While I appreciate the EFFORT to be FUNNY, I have to say that CIERDAN is a lot more FUNNIER in this THREAD than you can only DREAM of being.

Edited for the CAPITALIZATION of LETTERS to try to put some EMPHASIS on my post even THOUGH it makes me seem like a MORON

 

[anarres]

You KNOW that CAPITALISING a few WORDS is a SIGN of INTELLIGENCE?

I have to POINT OUT the important words so the STUPID people can UNDERSTAND me.

 

[Rambuchan]

While I appreciate the EFFORT to be FUNNY, I have to say that CIERDAN is a lot more FUNNIER in this THREAD than you can only DREAM of being.

Edited for the CAPITALIZATION of LETTERS to try to put some EMPHASIS on my post even THOUGH it makes me seem like a MORON

Well Cierdan operates in an entirely different league to me when it comes to humour. He just makes it seem so EFFORTLESS.

 

[carlosMM]

Well Cierdan operates in an entirely different league to me when it comes to humour. He just makes it seem so EFFORTLESS.

Yeah, but is it NATURAL?