Why is Italy never in Civ?

[Leonel]

It's always fun to slap Italians in the face.

 

[Ahriman]

Und zis is how ve zay goodbye in Germany, Dr. Jones!

 

[Louis XXIV]

Why? Because a Civilization's state in the 11th century is how we define it's historical significance?

You know what, if France had been insignificant in the 11th century and had STAYED insignificant, then it wouldn't be in the game. The thing is it didn't. Just because at one point in history Italy was more significant than France and Germany, that doesn't mean that it is overall more significant unless there is something magic about the 11th century meaning it is the only one that matters.

I'd argue that the Frankish Empire was dominant in the 9th Century, Germany was the 10th, and Italy was the 11th and 12th. After that, it was still vital for Europe until the 15th and 16th Centuries. The only reason I wouldn't argue for clear superiority was because they weren't as powerful militarily separate as European Kingdoms were unified. For example, the Duchy of Milano might be able to stand up to the King of France (which he did), but there were plenty of smaller Commonwealths that could not. Still, don't cherrypick the dates I'm using to say that I'm only saying certain years matter. You said that Italy had been in a state of flux or also rans for most of their history. My point is that, for centuries, Italy has been vital for Europe (at a time when France and Germany were in a state of flux or "also rans" compared to cultural and economic dominance of Italy).

Also, Duchies like Florence and Milan as well as the Venetian Republic were powerful players in the European stage. The naval and commercial dominance of Venice insures its place as one of the most powerful Empires in Medieval and Renaissance Europe until the trans-Atlantic trade destroyed its advantage (and it destroyed the Ottoman's power too, so that's not a reason to ignore a Civ).

You know, there was one point in history when Italy was the most important civilization the western world had ever seen. It was called the Roman empire. So that's what you get, you don't get a second slot in the limited civilization list because at some point in the 11th century Italy was slightly more interesting than France. Seriously.

There's a difference between having another civilization in Italy and them being the same civilization. There's also a difference between Italy being slightly more interesting than France and Italy being vital for the development of the state and the birth of modern Europe. Don't misrepresent my words that much

 

[Churchill's Hat]

Having debt doesn't mean you are going to bankrupt. And ~112% of GDP debt is not such a big deal! If u have many debts and if u still can pay it, this means you are rich. That's economy. Every country has debt. I bet USA is the state that has the most debts in the world.

What you probably mean is National Debt, and I'm going to assume its as a percentage of GDP as you specifically used that. The US is actually 66th at 39.7%; the top ten are Zimbabwe, Japan, St. Kitts and Nevis, Lebanon, Jamaica, Singapore, Italy, Greece, Sudan and Iceland.

 

[The End Is Nigh]

Having debt doesn't mean you are going to bankrupt. And ~112% of GDP debt is not such a big deal! If u have many debts and if u still can pay it, this means you are rich. That's economy. Every country has debt. I bet USA is the state that has the most debts in the world.

Living on the other side of the Aegean, I wish I could be as optimistic as you are

 

[Chalks]

There's a difference between having another civilization in Italy and them being the same civilization. There's also a difference between Italy being slightly more interesting than France and Italy being vital for the development of the state and the birth of modern Europe. Don't misrepresent my words that much

Regardless of how vital Italy is to the development of modern Europe - it's not more important than any of the existing European civilizations in the game.

If I'm misrepresenting your words, it is only because you're posting off topic and am forced to twist them to fit. This discussion relates to the civilization roster and unless you can de-thrown an existing European civ in favour of modern Italy you have no argument here.

 

[Louis XXIV]

Well, no, the question is why they're never in. I said in my first post why. But I don't think it's an unreasonable evolution of the topic to discuss arguments for why it could be in some version. And this doesn't mean "at the expense of a European civ currently in" or "in one of the current 18 slots." For the most part, I've been arguing against people who try and downplay their accomplishments. I honestly don't ever expect them in, I just don't like people dismissing Italy's accomplishments without knowing truly what they did.

 

[oChuckles]

And no, I don't mean Rome, I mean Italy. Medici, etc -- those types of Italians. It's really a slap in the face to include a faction like the Songhai but never Italy.

I always thought it was weird that Civ IV had Mali and not Songhai... :/



But anyway, here's my crazy conspiracy theory:

I think part of it might be the "conspicuous absence of the Axis Powers" thing. The exclusion of Hitler is less conspicuous than would be the exclusion of Germany, but the exclusion of Italy is actually less conspicuous than the exclusion of Mussolini would be if Italy were included.

This is caused by two things:
- on Europe maps Rome takes up the space. (and Europe is already crowded)
- Germany and Japan have more of an identity outside of "being an Axis Power" than Italy does, despite being a happenin' place during the Renaissance.


tl;dr backpedaling for (outdated) political correctness causes no Italy.

 

[Disgustipated]

All the leaders included in civ5 represent the height of that civilization's achievement. Rome was perhaps one of the greatest/organized empires in history, and Italy is just the leftovers. It would be redundant to have both, and I dont think a sane developer would choose Italy over Rome in a civilization game. It has nothing to do with you feeling Roman, it is all about who would be fun to play for the majority of the civilization community.

Isn't america just the leftovers of England?

 

[Disgustipated]

Having debt doesn't mean you are going to bankrupt. And ~112% of GDP debt is not such a big deal! If u have many debts and if u still can pay it, this means you are rich. That's economy. Every country has debt. I bet USA is the state that has the most debts in the world.
Anyway, it is really funny to discuss if Italy is economically good or bad.
Moreover, whatever parameter you choose else than economy, italy would be in the first 10-15 of the world as well. health, education etc. maybe the only thing italy is not very good could be the army. but anyway, most european counties' armies are weak anyway.

112% not a big deal? This is getting off topic a bit, but read this article. You may not agree with it, but I do.

http://money.cnn.com/2010/03/15/news/international/greece_debt.fortune/index.htm?source=cnn_bin

 

[Chalks]

Isn't america just the leftovers of England?

Nope, modern Britain is the leftovers of the British Empire.

 

[kivanc]

112% not a big deal? This is getting off topic a bit, but read this article. You may not agree with it, but I do.

http://money.cnn.com/2010/03/15/news/international/greece_debt.fortune/index.htm?source=cnn_bin

yes it is getting off topic.
every country may have debt. but at least italy is a member of G8 and G20. why do we discuss italy's economics?
and culturally, it is shining, it is the 1st address for many tourists in the world.
plus calcio, plus ferrari etc etc

 

[Charles Martel]

Declaring that the Hellenic empires forged by Alexander were Macedonian not Greek is like calling China Mongolian.

The reason why Macedonia vs. Grece, unlike China vs. Mongolia, are not represented as distinct civs is just a limitation of a narrow game design. But these gross simplifications of Firaxis's shouldn't misled us into thinking that Alexander's empire "makes more sense as a Greek civilization than a Macedonian one". Anyway, my original argument was that Greek mainland, under Philip and Alexander’s rule, was more like conquered land than a cohesive and independent state. So I think that to regard Alexander's Grece as a truly unified nation is dubious to say the least. It seems to me that this argument still stands regardless of you comparison with of Macedonia/Greece with China/Mongolia, unless I've somehow missed the point of your comparison.

to say that Al-Andalus revitalized EUROPEAN culture (as in, christian Europe? Outside of Iberia?) is clearly wrong. I wonder what Charles Martel would have to say about that claim....

Actually, I'd love to see Al-Andalus in the game. I guess that people would object on the grounds that it "overalps" with Spain, or that it should be represented by a generic Arab civilization. The real problem as I see it is that Civ4 (and probably Civ5 too) doesn’t really allow fragmentation of lager empires (Civ4’s Vassal States didn’t really succeed in simulating that properly, but I hope that Civ5’s Puppet States and City States will be somewhat better).The Moors and the Berbers certainly deserve to be in the game as a major civilization: Al-Andalus could then spawn as a fragment of the Moors.

If you can argue that there is another European civilization being included that is less influential than modern Italy then I'd like to hear it.

Although I do happen to think that Italy roughly falls into the same European league as Spain, France or Germany, I am not in the business of arguing that country X is more influential than Y. These argument are often silly, and I have no interest in getting bogged down in these kind of comparisons. In fact, I don't even think that some other civ should be excluded in order to make room for Italy.

Rather, I am for increasing the total number of civs and introducing a more dynamic game mechanics whereby ancient cultures rise, collapse and get gradually replaced by their modern counter-parts. With a system like that in place, Italy may emerge later in the game as the closest continuer of ancient Rome.

 

[Chalks]

Although I do happen to think that Italy roughly falls into the same European league as Spain, France or Germany

France and Germany? Really? In my opinion, Napoleon and Hitler guarantee the inclusion of those two countries if nothing else.

Spain I would agree is a real fringe contender - although it's influence on the new world puts it ahead of Italy in my opinion, I would be happy to see it slip into an EP to make room for another nation - by which I do not mean modern Italy.

 

[Ahriman]

It seems to me that this argument still stands regardless of you comparison with of Macedonia/Greece with China/Mongolia, unless I've somehow missed the point of your comparison.

the point of the comparison is this; the Mongols conquered China, but then became Chinese. For ages the rulers of China were descendents of Mongol conquerors, but their achievements are more rightly conceived of as Chin

The "Greek" civ is representing the entire Hellenic world; Macedonia, Selucid, Ptolomeic, Pontus, etc.
One of the most significant cultural diasporas the world has ever seen, spreading all over the Mediterranean (and up into the Black Sea).

These civs are culturally Greek, just as China was culturally Chinese, not Mongol. The conquerors adopted the ways of the conquered.

They absolutely need a representative, being the real birthplace of western civilization, and Greece is the best representative of them, as well as being the most romanticized/iconic.

There are lots of civs that can represent Renaissance Europe, where Italy was of high historic importance, but there aren't any others in the game to represent the Hellenic world.

With a system like that in place, Italy may emerge later in the game as the closest continuer of ancient Rome.

I have no particular problem with that (as long as we're largely talking about cosmetic name changes of a single player, rather than Rhyes style changes which don't belong in the main Civ game). But its difficult to make happen for every player.

I can see Turkish Sultanate -> Ottoman Empire, England -> Britain, Gaul -> France, Rome -> Italy, and maybe even Egypt -> Arab (though that one is pretty damn slender).
but what are you going to do for Aztec, Inca, America, Songhai, Spain, Greece, Russia, India, China, Japan, Mongols?

 

[Pangur Bán]

We're representing 6000 years of history. Rome is good for representing Italy, and if not, then Italy is not important/distinct enough to be add. However, since in Civ4 we had both Germany AND its medieval incarnation the "Holy Roman Empire", I wouldn't put it past the developers to add it ...

 

[Dark_Jedi06]

and culturally, it is shining, it is the 1st address for many tourists in the world.

Not attempting to downplay the importance of Renaissance art/architecture in Italy, but I think the first thing tourists look for when visiting Italy are those monuments left by the Romans.

Just a thought.

 

[IdiotsOpposite]

Not attempting to downplay the importance of Renaissance art/architecture in Italy, but I think the first thing tourists look for when visiting Italy are those monuments left by the Romans.

Just a thought.

What about the Sistine Chapel, the Basilica of Saint Peter (I'm counting it!), the Leaning Tower of Pisa, the Cathedral of Milan, etc.?

I can only name two great Roman monuments: The Colosseum and the Pantheon.

 

[mechaerik]

Actually, France is the most visited tourist destination.


Italy is #5 (but this is data for 2008, may have changed, but I doubt it changed much).

 

[EMT]

the point of the comparison is this; the Mongols conquered China, but then became Chinese. For ages the rulers of China were descendents of Mongol conquerors, but their achievements are more rightly conceived of as Chin

The "Greek" civ is representing the entire Hellenic world; Macedonia, Selucid, Ptolomeic, Pontus, etc.
One of the most significant cultural diasporas the world has ever seen, spreading all over the Mediterranean (and up into the Black Sea).

Actually, have you ever heard of the Indo-Greeks and Greek Afghanistan?