prejudged_fire
Chieftain
- Joined
- Jun 28, 2007
- Messages
- 8
yep you're right, I just started a game simply to see if it was there lol
Yay! One point for me!!
![[party]](/images/smilies/partytime.gif "Party [party]")
Why is Korea in the game?
- Thread starter Bast
- Start date
Harbourboy
Deity
Well, you can all prove how tough Korea is in this month's Major and Minor Gauntlets, which both involve the Koreans and their mighty Hwachas! Are Hwachas any use in an Emperor Domination game on Continents? Let's find out.
IMAGINE
The Romans who have assimilated Greek culture eventually invade and conquer Greece. But they proceed to destroy the most important Greek works, monuments, artifacts; take it for their own, or deface it and make it look stupid. In short, the Romans take it on as their mission to belittle the Greek civilization.
Thus the modern world never gets to hear of Socrates, Plato, nor Aristotle.
Athens? history-buffs might have heard it somewhere.
What the heck is a Sparta?
Alexander the what??
Trieme, now who in all heaven could that be?
Iliad?? Isn't that the name of some Russian?
Ah, I know Homer though, he is that affable buffoon in the Simpsons!
I admit, the above is a hyperbolic hyperbole. Not everything can be completely quashed, and so Greece might still end up in the game CIV IV.
But then, some boob goon will ask, "Why is Greece in the game??"
and a tool stooge replies, "$$$"
This I use as an analogy because facts that are glaringly obvious to me, concerning events even until modern times, are completely obscured to others.
Let me give you some examples:
-Concerning territory, right up to the 1900's central and eastern manchuria was Korean land, under the Kando province. In fact, legally, it still is!
China annexed this territory from Japan in exchange for the use of some railroads. This territory is as big as what United Korea would be.
This is one of the top issues that will face Korea when we do eventually achieve unity, the reclamation of our land.
-Korea was never a regional power?? WRONG.
Even just by tracing history back to the samguk period or ancient choson dynasty, we see that Korea was able to rival China in terms of military or territory.
However!
The thing is, sources concerning Korea are very few and quite inaccurate.
Even in North American universities, lecturers and professors are quite ignorant regarding Korea, and this is understandable, due to the fact that sources are inadequate.
But why are sources inadequate?
The answer is because of the Japanese colonial period.
We had grand libraries with hundreds of thousands of historical records, books, and the like. The Japanese burned them all.
In fact, what is currently being taught about our ancient history is a remnant from our colonial past, fabricated by the Japanese.
The best of our artifacts, paintings, were stolen from us.
Heck, Korea used to have many tigers and leopards, but they were hunted down to the brink of extinction. The reason? The Japanese, who do not have tigers on their island, thought that these fearsome hunters were akin to the Korean spirit, and must be broken. Then they proceeded to portray tigers as big harmless cats.
Let me get off this topic, it is one that can become highly provocative.
And Yes, I am a Korean, and I do resent the atrocious acts that were done to us during the colonial period.
However, I hold that the past must be forgiven, but it should never be forgotten. Or be misinterpreted as it is being done now.
In this Modern age, we as Koreans are ourselves unsure of our own ancient history... I wonder if that is what it would be like had it happened to the Greeks... or the Romans, had their writings and the byzantines not survived.
However, there are certain things that we are definitely sure of, and it is that we are a distinct, unique, and accomplished civilization. And although maybe the world may not acknowledge it, we view ourselves as one of the greatest, if not The Greatest civilization of all time.
Here is a modern example:
-South Korea, one of the Top 10 economies of the world.
We went through colonial period and the Korean War, which absolutely destroyed everything. From the midst of sub-saharan africa-like living standards we rose to the Top 10 in less than 50 years, a feat achieved with HALF of an already shrunk down country.
To go on and answer BAST's Question, here is my take on why people like him ask "why is korea in the game?"
The Answer: Soft Power, or in other words, CULTURE
In fact, although it does hurt my pride that he would question Korea, it does not surprise me at all. Korea severely lacks in soft power.
Why are France and Italy, who aren't economic or military superpowers, recognized and LIKED in many places around the world?
Because of their cultural influence and superiority.
Why is Japan recognized and liked? once again, the answer is soft power.
For Koreans, it has been hard to establish or even think about soft power.
Millennia of warfare, invasion, and not having enough to eat has left the people chasing economic gains. And on top of that, we are currently a people who have lost their own history. How can we hope to influence others?
As I have said above though, there are certain things that cannot be refuted, and these are such things that BAST is claiming.
In the meanwhile, I aspire to right the wrongs and place Korea amongst the world's great civilizations, in our place where we belong.
So that no one will ever ask such a question as, "Why is Korea in the game?" ever again.
On a side note, Japan during the Yamato period and even after, more than 50% of their nobles were of Korean origin. Their Emperor is also of Korean origin. Albeit, it doesn't count for much now anyways.
Finally, regarding "Why isn't Israel in the game?"
I think that Israel is already VERY WELL REPRESENTED!
By whom?
Take a guess!
That's right! The Barbarians!
The Israelites were a tribal and nomadic people, who invaded and took over foreign cities. Archaelogical evidence suggests that when the Israelites took over a city, the cultural level of that city actually decreased!
That is exactly what the barbarians do, and even more, since they actually found their own cities!
Even Jerusalem was stolen by David from the so-called gentiles.
And before that, the israelites were a slave people to the philistines.
Well, I may have offended you, but take that as your grain of salt.
The Romans who have assimilated Greek culture eventually invade and conquer Greece. But they proceed to destroy the most important Greek works, monuments, artifacts; take it for their own, or deface it and make it look stupid. In short, the Romans take it on as their mission to belittle the Greek civilization.
Thus the modern world never gets to hear of Socrates, Plato, nor Aristotle.
Athens? history-buffs might have heard it somewhere.
What the heck is a Sparta?
Alexander the what??
Trieme, now who in all heaven could that be?
Iliad?? Isn't that the name of some Russian?
Ah, I know Homer though, he is that affable buffoon in the Simpsons!
I admit, the above is a hyperbolic hyperbole. Not everything can be completely quashed, and so Greece might still end up in the game CIV IV.
But then, some boob goon will ask, "Why is Greece in the game??"
and a tool stooge replies, "$$$"
This I use as an analogy because facts that are glaringly obvious to me, concerning events even until modern times, are completely obscured to others.
Let me give you some examples:
-Concerning territory, right up to the 1900's central and eastern manchuria was Korean land, under the Kando province. In fact, legally, it still is!
China annexed this territory from Japan in exchange for the use of some railroads. This territory is as big as what United Korea would be.
This is one of the top issues that will face Korea when we do eventually achieve unity, the reclamation of our land.
-Korea was never a regional power?? WRONG.
Even just by tracing history back to the samguk period or ancient choson dynasty, we see that Korea was able to rival China in terms of military or territory.
However!
The thing is, sources concerning Korea are very few and quite inaccurate.
Even in North American universities, lecturers and professors are quite ignorant regarding Korea, and this is understandable, due to the fact that sources are inadequate.
But why are sources inadequate?
The answer is because of the Japanese colonial period.
We had grand libraries with hundreds of thousands of historical records, books, and the like. The Japanese burned them all.
In fact, what is currently being taught about our ancient history is a remnant from our colonial past, fabricated by the Japanese.
The best of our artifacts, paintings, were stolen from us.
Heck, Korea used to have many tigers and leopards, but they were hunted down to the brink of extinction. The reason? The Japanese, who do not have tigers on their island, thought that these fearsome hunters were akin to the Korean spirit, and must be broken. Then they proceeded to portray tigers as big harmless cats.
Let me get off this topic, it is one that can become highly provocative.
And Yes, I am a Korean, and I do resent the atrocious acts that were done to us during the colonial period.
However, I hold that the past must be forgiven, but it should never be forgotten. Or be misinterpreted as it is being done now.
In this Modern age, we as Koreans are ourselves unsure of our own ancient history... I wonder if that is what it would be like had it happened to the Greeks... or the Romans, had their writings and the byzantines not survived.
However, there are certain things that we are definitely sure of, and it is that we are a distinct, unique, and accomplished civilization. And although maybe the world may not acknowledge it, we view ourselves as one of the greatest, if not The Greatest civilization of all time.
Here is a modern example:
-South Korea, one of the Top 10 economies of the world.
We went through colonial period and the Korean War, which absolutely destroyed everything. From the midst of sub-saharan africa-like living standards we rose to the Top 10 in less than 50 years, a feat achieved with HALF of an already shrunk down country.
To go on and answer BAST's Question, here is my take on why people like him ask "why is korea in the game?"
The Answer: Soft Power, or in other words, CULTURE
In fact, although it does hurt my pride that he would question Korea, it does not surprise me at all. Korea severely lacks in soft power.
Why are France and Italy, who aren't economic or military superpowers, recognized and LIKED in many places around the world?
Because of their cultural influence and superiority.
Why is Japan recognized and liked? once again, the answer is soft power.
For Koreans, it has been hard to establish or even think about soft power.
Millennia of warfare, invasion, and not having enough to eat has left the people chasing economic gains. And on top of that, we are currently a people who have lost their own history. How can we hope to influence others?
As I have said above though, there are certain things that cannot be refuted, and these are such things that BAST is claiming.
In the meanwhile, I aspire to right the wrongs and place Korea amongst the world's great civilizations, in our place where we belong.
So that no one will ever ask such a question as, "Why is Korea in the game?" ever again.
On a side note, Japan during the Yamato period and even after, more than 50% of their nobles were of Korean origin. Their Emperor is also of Korean origin. Albeit, it doesn't count for much now anyways.
Finally, regarding "Why isn't Israel in the game?"
I think that Israel is already VERY WELL REPRESENTED!
By whom?
Take a guess!
That's right! The Barbarians!
The Israelites were a tribal and nomadic people, who invaded and took over foreign cities. Archaelogical evidence suggests that when the Israelites took over a city, the cultural level of that city actually decreased!
That is exactly what the barbarians do, and even more, since they actually found their own cities!
Even Jerusalem was stolen by David from the so-called gentiles.
And before that, the israelites were a slave people to the philistines.
Well, I may have offended you, but take that as your grain of salt.
ParkCungHee
Deity
- Joined
- Aug 13, 2006
- Messages
- 12,921
Thats exactly the point, saying Korea was a "colony" of China because it adopted things such as Confucianism from China is like saying England is a "colony" of France because it adopted Enlightenment thought.For the people who'd like to push the issue of England being a colony of France: WTH?
England has a few cultural things in common with France but to say that it was a colony of France? Comon guys...
prejudged_fire
Chieftain
- Joined
- Jun 28, 2007
- Messages
- 8
rlaw, dude.. calm down, no one here was insulting Korea or putting it down.. my god....
Azander
Fairy
While Korea certainly deserves to be in the game, I don't consider it one of the greatest civilisations ever.
sylvanllewelyn
Perma-newb
- Joined
- Oct 19, 2006
- Messages
- 2,050
Yeah, he/she sounds like a fanatic. A very un-eloquant way of expressing ideas. BUT he has a lot of points, and does put it better than I (ever) could.
The core idea of CIV4 is "what-if". What if Ghandi lived in the ancient times and lead India with his ideas throughout? What if England started in the middle of desert? What with the Roman Empire prospered to the modern times?
What if the Koreans were not caught between two civilizations with rich lands and a ruthless military tradition?
Korea "once" commanded a large portion of Manchuria, probably won't get it back again, because of cultural issues. As for getting N.Korea back... it would be even harder than China getting Taiwan back, and the economic costs would be many times more staggering than East and West Germany. But surely, the Koreans have more than proven their worth.
Actually, it depends on what standards you use, really. It **IS** possible to say that Korea is really an offshoot of Chinese and Japanese culture, **IF** you are consistant about it and also agree that Spanish and French civilizations are really just Romans, and that the English civ are really just the German civilization. Be consistant people.
As for soft power... you've gotta be frickken kidding me. Korea has way more cultural power than China. Everytime people mention China, it's cheap take-outs, laundry-man, deformed child acrobats and "their exports are killing our jobs". That's also very well represented in CIV4: cultural output is not dependent upon ancient wonders, but COMMERCE!!!
As for the Israel comment, I am inclined to disagree, if only slightly. They were neither tribal nor empire, but sort of semi-nomadic, a form of social structure best suited for prolonged warfare, as they have a combination of civilization and hardened lives. Their civilization is not magnificent buildings, but ideas, especially the complex concept of god and morality. They have two MAJOR accomplishments, neither of which unique, both of which they were the first:
Medical knowledge.
Have you noticed all those references to hygiene in the bible? As non-religious as I am, those "rules" are not really religious at all, but rather what allows them to sustain much higher populations than their neighbours, leading to their rapid conquest of their neighbours.
monotheism and morality.
In the past, people had no idea what "morality" was, only what works and what doesn't. Each god was in control of one aspect of their lives, and their influance was only in the local region. For example, each tribe had one rain god for "the world", but once they moved to another place, they "forget" the rain god and "fit" a new name to the rain god into their minds (why does Zeus have more than 1 wife?). Simple logical thought, while simple to us, didn't make sense to the ancients. In fact, the idea of remembering real facts as opposed to myths is difficult to many people. One of the cores of early Judaism was that all these sacrifice and ideas were pointless if there wasn't love to neighbours and doing the "right" thing, not making other suffer. Because one god represented one idea, and no animal sacrifices are more important than love and care of neighbours, the Israelites fiercely enforced this one overwhelming idea as "One God".
However, Civ requires external as well as internal achievements. In architecture, music, clothing, EMPIRE... Persia and Babylonians already "represented" them, and Cyrus represented their ideas of morality than their own dastardly leaders did.
The core idea of CIV4 is "what-if". What if Ghandi lived in the ancient times and lead India with his ideas throughout? What if England started in the middle of desert? What with the Roman Empire prospered to the modern times?
What if the Koreans were not caught between two civilizations with rich lands and a ruthless military tradition?
Korea "once" commanded a large portion of Manchuria, probably won't get it back again, because of cultural issues. As for getting N.Korea back... it would be even harder than China getting Taiwan back, and the economic costs would be many times more staggering than East and West Germany. But surely, the Koreans have more than proven their worth.
Actually, it depends on what standards you use, really. It **IS** possible to say that Korea is really an offshoot of Chinese and Japanese culture, **IF** you are consistant about it and also agree that Spanish and French civilizations are really just Romans, and that the English civ are really just the German civilization. Be consistant people.
As for soft power... you've gotta be frickken kidding me. Korea has way more cultural power than China. Everytime people mention China, it's cheap take-outs, laundry-man, deformed child acrobats and "their exports are killing our jobs". That's also very well represented in CIV4: cultural output is not dependent upon ancient wonders, but COMMERCE!!!
As for the Israel comment, I am inclined to disagree, if only slightly. They were neither tribal nor empire, but sort of semi-nomadic, a form of social structure best suited for prolonged warfare, as they have a combination of civilization and hardened lives. Their civilization is not magnificent buildings, but ideas, especially the complex concept of god and morality. They have two MAJOR accomplishments, neither of which unique, both of which they were the first:
Medical knowledge.
Have you noticed all those references to hygiene in the bible? As non-religious as I am, those "rules" are not really religious at all, but rather what allows them to sustain much higher populations than their neighbours, leading to their rapid conquest of their neighbours.
monotheism and morality.
In the past, people had no idea what "morality" was, only what works and what doesn't. Each god was in control of one aspect of their lives, and their influance was only in the local region. For example, each tribe had one rain god for "the world", but once they moved to another place, they "forget" the rain god and "fit" a new name to the rain god into their minds (why does Zeus have more than 1 wife?). Simple logical thought, while simple to us, didn't make sense to the ancients. In fact, the idea of remembering real facts as opposed to myths is difficult to many people. One of the cores of early Judaism was that all these sacrifice and ideas were pointless if there wasn't love to neighbours and doing the "right" thing, not making other suffer. Because one god represented one idea, and no animal sacrifices are more important than love and care of neighbours, the Israelites fiercely enforced this one overwhelming idea as "One God".
However, Civ requires external as well as internal achievements. In architecture, music, clothing, EMPIRE... Persia and Babylonians already "represented" them, and Cyrus represented their ideas of morality than their own dastardly leaders did.
Ogedei_the_Mad
Caffeinated Khagan
sylvanllewelyn said:
Actually, it would be more the case that Japan is an offshoot of Korean culture, not the other way around. But you're right - if we're to be consistent about this following this logic, then one can say that Spanish and French civilization is an offshoot of Roman civilization.
cybrxkhan
Asian Xwedodah
fanatics like those ruin their civilizations' repution. take it from someone who has read about Poles on the forums. (no insult, Poles and TheLastOne
).if you're talking about modern day China, yes, probably, thanks to the commies. but ancient days... well, yes, Korea had a deep cultural tradition, but it all came from China, which had a great and flowering culture... but it doesn't matter now, because in Asia, great and flowering culture was replaced by communism or capitalism.
Huayna Capac357
Deity
Korea not only invented block printing, they have unified empires (Silla, Goryeo) for hundreds of years. Though they were never that significant, they are worthy for at least an expansion pack.
Also, North Korea has nukes
, which scares the heck out of me 
!
Also, North Korea has nukes , which scares the heck out of me !
Yooka
Chieftain
- Joined
- Dec 7, 2005
- Messages
- 69
Decent thread, methinks. And I'm prone to agree with much of what rlawhdgur has to say. But as far as the main reason Korea was added... I think this sums it up.
Hooray Free Market.
Between China and Japan, I feel Korea has been that nation that historically has been doing all it can to hold on, like when you're playing a non-aggresive nation, and realize you have Montezuma on one side and Napolean on the other. Bad positioning & tough luck.
Why Korea is in the game? The gaming market of Korea is HUGE!! VERY huge. If I was developing Civ4 I'd definitely add Korea to sell more copies.
Hooray Free Market.
Between China and Japan, I feel Korea has been that nation that historically has been doing all it can to hold on, like when you're playing a non-aggresive nation, and realize you have Montezuma on one side and Napolean on the other. Bad positioning & tough luck.
The Flame
^^ bad diplomat ^^
Wow, another one of these threads. Time to crank out the usual answers.
Money (market), Western appeal, well-known, etc.
I think you get the point.
Money (market), Western appeal, well-known, etc.
I think you get the point.
Ogedei_the_Mad
Caffeinated Khagan
Civilization IV isn't sold (legally) in Korea. As I've already mentioned many times before, none of my 422 students have the vaguest idea what it is. Therefore the gaming market and "money talks" arguments are not valid.
Traitorfish
The Tighnahulish Kid
Also remember that Monotheism was a powerful proto-nationalistic tool. Most nations of the time place their nation God at the head of the pantheon- Marduk in Babylon, Assur in Assyria, etc. By removing all other deity gods in favour of this single chief deity, the Israelites helped cement a sense of national identity among their people, and made it harder for an invader to suppress that nationality. For example, when the Assyrians conquered Babylon they toppled Marduk and installed Assur as the chief god, allowing them to quickly absorb the populace into their empire- for the peasants, all it meant were a few changes in details, their religion stayed more or less the same. The Israelites, on the other hand, maintained their sole god and it was much harder to replace this monotheistic faith than it would be to alter an existing polytheistic faith, making it much harder to replace their national identity with a foreign national identity. The fact that Judaism is still going strong while the religions of Babylon, Greece and Egypt are long-dead helps prove the effectiveness of this strategy.
The Flame
^^ bad diplomat ^^
dutchking
Deity
- Joined
- Apr 30, 2007
- Messages
- 3,317
Ogedei_the_Mad
Caffeinated Khagan
South Korea. What I meant by legally is what one of the posters mentioned earlier - that "Korean version" Civ4 copies that do exist in South Korea often are *not* legal. There is no Korean version of Civ4 and the gaming market here caters mostly to online games. Civilization is also *not* popular here.
ParkCungHee
Deity
- Joined
- Aug 13, 2006
- Messages
- 12,921
Because they're pirate copies made to play in Korean.Why is it illegal? (if it's not legal) ^Also which Korea?
Conqueror Worm
Prince
- Joined
- Jan 22, 2006
- Messages
- 301
Well, from skimming over the posts, it seems that Korea as a unified or semi unified power has been around for about 2000 years or so, mostly with relatively independent or semi independent status under the semi subjugation of China and more briefly Japan, with relatively brief periods of regional dominance or semi dominance of adjacent parts of northern China and Manchuria.
How does this compare to the history or the Thai or Vietnamese people? Would it be too bold to make the generalization that they also most likely have somewhat similiar historys, with distinct cultures and with relativiely brief periods of local dominance. Is Korea more econmically and militarily powerful than Thailand and Vietnam now - yes. Will this still be the case 50 years down the road - who can say.
Does Korea have a history as long as those of Egypt, India, Mesopotamia, Persia or China - of course not. Has it dominated, terrorized, expanded over, pilliaged or plundered vast regions of the world on the scale of the Romans, Arabs, Vikings, Monguls, Spanish, English or Americans - no. Was it ever the center of civilization in the realms of philosophy and science as were the ancient Greeks, the Arabs of the Middle Ages, or the French of the Enlightenment - no. Was it one of the great civilizations of the New World - such as were the Aztecs or the Inca, or even the greatest civilization for any prolonged period of time in its own geograpical region as Russia - no. Did it carve up a hemisphere as did the Portuguese and the English in the New World, or a continant as did the French, Germans and English in Africa, or divide up the entire world as did the Americans and the Russians in the latter half of the 20th century - no. Did it ever, if even only briefly, expand contol over entire vast regions consisting of many nations as did the Macedonians under Alexander, the French under Napolian, or the Germans or Japanese during the early stages of the Second World War - most certainly not.
Hence, the arguement really becomes is it a high or low second tier civ, in terms of Civ the game. Well, it does seem to have the longevity of more ancient cultures such as those of the Vietnamese or Thais, combined with the current power of newer nations such as Canada or Brazil. So, I guess, why not Korea. Personally, I'm still inclined to favor the glory of ancient civs more or less long gone such as the Khmer or Assyrian as far as this game goes however.
Anyway, we already have China, Mongolia, and Japan as East, North, Northeast Asian civs - so while Korea is definately a legitimate second tier civ, I will have to go with the original poster and say a Southeast Asian civ should have come before Korea in the second expansion if they were only going to give one more civ to Asia.
If they were going to give more, or in a third expansion, than yes, why not Korea - though I am certainly not convinced that Korea had as much long term influence on the history of the world as the Portuegese, Dutch, Austro-Hungarians or Ottoman Turks at the peak of their glory, and I really think that that is what this game is really all about. That, and murderous, diabolical conquest and expansion!
But hey, from what I saw in my two years in Seoul, they must surely have far tastier food and far more beautiful women, especiallly if you like it spicy and with lots of make-up, which I do.
Dubu-kimchi, Green Label Soju, DJ Doc, and Mia Sam gori for me - civilization at it's finest!
How does this compare to the history or the Thai or Vietnamese people? Would it be too bold to make the generalization that they also most likely have somewhat similiar historys, with distinct cultures and with relativiely brief periods of local dominance. Is Korea more econmically and militarily powerful than Thailand and Vietnam now - yes. Will this still be the case 50 years down the road - who can say.
Does Korea have a history as long as those of Egypt, India, Mesopotamia, Persia or China - of course not. Has it dominated, terrorized, expanded over, pilliaged or plundered vast regions of the world on the scale of the Romans, Arabs, Vikings, Monguls, Spanish, English or Americans - no. Was it ever the center of civilization in the realms of philosophy and science as were the ancient Greeks, the Arabs of the Middle Ages, or the French of the Enlightenment - no. Was it one of the great civilizations of the New World - such as were the Aztecs or the Inca, or even the greatest civilization for any prolonged period of time in its own geograpical region as Russia - no. Did it carve up a hemisphere as did the Portuguese and the English in the New World, or a continant as did the French, Germans and English in Africa, or divide up the entire world as did the Americans and the Russians in the latter half of the 20th century - no. Did it ever, if even only briefly, expand contol over entire vast regions consisting of many nations as did the Macedonians under Alexander, the French under Napolian, or the Germans or Japanese during the early stages of the Second World War - most certainly not.
Hence, the arguement really becomes is it a high or low second tier civ, in terms of Civ the game. Well, it does seem to have the longevity of more ancient cultures such as those of the Vietnamese or Thais, combined with the current power of newer nations such as Canada or Brazil. So, I guess, why not Korea. Personally, I'm still inclined to favor the glory of ancient civs more or less long gone such as the Khmer or Assyrian as far as this game goes however.
Anyway, we already have China, Mongolia, and Japan as East, North, Northeast Asian civs - so while Korea is definately a legitimate second tier civ, I will have to go with the original poster and say a Southeast Asian civ should have come before Korea in the second expansion if they were only going to give one more civ to Asia.
If they were going to give more, or in a third expansion, than yes, why not Korea - though I am certainly not convinced that Korea had as much long term influence on the history of the world as the Portuegese, Dutch, Austro-Hungarians or Ottoman Turks at the peak of their glory, and I really think that that is what this game is really all about. That, and murderous, diabolical conquest and expansion!
But hey, from what I saw in my two years in Seoul, they must surely have far tastier food and far more beautiful women, especiallly if you like it spicy and with lots of make-up, which I do.
Dubu-kimchi, Green Label Soju, DJ Doc, and Mia Sam gori for me - civilization at it's finest!
cybrxkhan
Asian Xwedodah
^yay, a moderate!
Vietnam is a first-tier civ!!!
Vietnam is a first-tier civ!!!
