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Why is sexuality not allowed in the game, but violence is A-ok?

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Caveman 2 Cosmos' started by Laura, Jul 5, 2012.

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  1. Crusis

    Crusis Warlord

    Oct 26, 2005
    If you have the social issues in the game, you need to have the results reflected across the spectrum of governments and religious settings. Sure, if you have selected liberal as your society, gay rights and other progressive ideas would be a great thing to add to the game. But if you have selected intolerant or a few of the other religious settings as your civs religion, then you should be able to burn gays, lesbians, women's right's groups, etc. at the stake.

    Before you get all bent out of shape, that's the reality of history. We're all about rainbow flags and gay pride parades in our underwear now, but 1,000 years ago homosexuals were killed in dungeons.

    So if we're complaining about leaving sexuality out of the game, there should at least be a try to get it right instead of succumbing to a politically correct agenda. There were no openly gay Templars. There were no openly gay inquisitors, unless by open you are talking about their abdominal cavities.

    We have city pillaging now, we have erasures of religions from cities now.. and let's face it, that means torture, slaughter, and bloody displays on crucifixes. So if we're going to have socially liberal context, the game should have the opposite as well. That's what this game is, a play on opposition and combat.

    I'm not anti-anything, btw, in real life I'm a Libertarian. I couldn't care less about what any of you do in your own time. I'm just saying as a student of history that there should be a counterpoint to any ideology introduced into the game.

    The results of a liberal gay agenda in game might be that your vassal likes you less because he's a theocracy. Or a neighbor declares war on you because of your 'immorality'. Church buildings might stop giving bonuses, while some government buildings might have bonuses increase.

    To say that just adding in a gay pride building is OK is nuts. Social issues such as these have had HUGE ramifications throughout history.
  2. Actuarian

    Actuarian Warlord

    Sep 15, 2010
    I'm still trying to figure out what in-game benefit there would be for having a nudist colony. More happiness due to people getting to run around naked, but extra unhealthiness due to higher risk of skin cancer?

    If we are going to have erotic stories, does that mean we should also have epic fantasy books? Should "Playboy Magazine" & "The Lord of the Rings" be world wonders?


    Seriously, there are a lot of things you could add to C2C in many different areas. I think it is best to look at things in terms of how they make sense in the C2C game environment, and not explicitly try to address social issues, either though forced comprehensive inclusion or forced exclusion.
  3. draz

    draz Warlord

    Oct 25, 2009
    ^ That is indeed a good point. Civ series of course has always been about the 'broad strokes' of technological evolution, and while RoM and now C2C has brought a more detailed view about the breakthroughs in various fields, IMO it is important not to stray from the spirit of Civ too much or you'll end up in a never-ending mire of nitpicky details that don't really add any gameplay value.
  4. Crusis

    Crusis Warlord

    Oct 26, 2005
    Your post, draz, is why we need 'like' buttons on this forum.
  5. ls612

    ls612 Deity Moderator

    Mar 10, 2008
    My short answer here is that first it doesn't add much to the gameplay, as opposed to having units, which are an integral part of every civ game. Second, I've been talking with J about this, and these sorts of discussions may violate the CFC terms of service. He's going to check with the other mods and admins on this.
  6. Actuarian

    Actuarian Warlord

    Sep 15, 2010
    Those nickpicky details - but I so wanted a mime trainer building......

    Great minds think alike. ;)
  7. CiverDan

    CiverDan Warlord

    Mar 28, 2004
    I think people need to make a distinction between scientific advances that are controversial, such as cloning, genetic engineering type stuff etc, and currently divisive social issues. I think the latter has no real place in c2c for a few reasons. First, it doesnt add anything to gameplay in general. Second, Those type of buildings will just serve to alienate people working on this mod.
  8. rightfuture

    rightfuture Emperor

    Mar 11, 2008
    I agree that there is a distinction between 3 types of controversial discussions that C2C is having lately:

    1. The plausibility line of Science Fiction, eventually becoming Fantasy. (a variation of the controversial scientific advances that you mentioned)
    I agree with many discussions about reality being important to maintain for as long as possible in C2C. The reality conversation is important for everyone, because it directly affects the popularity (both current and future) of C2C.

    I think the solution is to keep the main parts of C2C as plausible as possible, for as long as reasonable into the future eras. (I will go on about this in another thread and edit the link to that discussion here.) It should be a flexible line that gets drawn somewhere past the near future era. Please remember Arthur C. Clarke's quote about' Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic' when considering that line; the earth was the center of the universe (Copernicus), the earth was flat ( Columbus), and we didn't think we could reach the moon (Apollo) before you make any decisions. For realism's sake it might be better to err on the side of pushing more fantastic/ controversial stuff into the future.

    2. The currently decisive social issues, like you mentioned.
    There needs to be an ongoing thread for just Controversial Issue Discussion. (I will post one and link it here).

    Tech-Tree discussion is diverse enough that there needs to be a dedicated controversial/alternative Tech tree thread by itself, and potentially a mod-mod, to discuss and include those ideas optionally because of radical differences in philosophy.
    Doing this right will allow solutions to controversial ideas to develop, and more controversial mod-mods to stay separate to keep C2C focused, progressing, and popular.

    We need a outlet for all controversial discussions, to challenge people to make C2C better, to leave room for everyone to be a part of C2C, to explore options and possibilities, and to include and preserve a diversity of people.
    People like Dancing Hoskuld, Ls612, and Vokarya who have at times had a difference in philosophy in how things were progressing, should always have a voice and a reason to continue to want to stay part of C2C. Potential contributors like Jonny Smith, Monaldino, and the few people who have drifted away from C2C, should be invited and included for their ability to refine controversy. New people need to know what they can and can't do to help and be a part of C2C discussion and modding. Everyone should feel included and their ideas valued. Ultimately, the ModTeam has to make those hard decisions on what to do right now.

    I think Realism, Futurism, Fantasy(exploration of pushing the line of plausibility and realism), and popular Culture (star trek, star wars, etc) vs generic-ism (it could happen in the future) should be considered for inclusion into C2C for reasons of exploration, and popularity. There has to be room for some imagination and optional exploration. These themes ultimately deserve their own collected thread and dedicated discussion. I also think historic periods and alternative eras should have their own independent discussions and developed / dedicated community of supporters / players / modders so that C2C can progress separately, yet have a coordinated team effort so that there is a consistent vision that will allow C2C to stay on track and continue progress, yet be free to explore at will.

    Strategy Only said it best
    I think C2C should continue to be it's own entity.....
    With the ModTeam controlling the vision of what C2C should be, so that it continues to be able to grow into the best Civ possibility it can be,
    .....While letting C2C become the best evolution of what it could be, by fostering open discussion, exploring all potential popular what-if or could-be scenarios, making hard decisions optional and open for further discussion, and helping it become more with a great C2C community.

    3. Ideas that people simply disagree with. Maybe we should also have a Solving C2C Disagreements discussion Thread.
    C2C will continue to be a WIP (work-in -progress). Ideas will continuously be in different stages in process. It is great that discussions can continue (by everybody) while work in continued by the ModTeam in the SVN, Having this distinction allows work to continue while discussion occurs in train of thought spurts, as people come up with new ideas and solutions in their own time. Debate should be pursued, as long as it's civil and with the realization that the participants have to find agreement for ideas to be realized.

    C2C will have have to balance the line between committing to ideas (the ModTeam), and entertaining new ones. It may be the only way to make C2C it's best.

    For the sake of keeping progress and C2C identity/integrity, it should always be clear to everyone that ideas and discussion will continue to be entertained, but their must be a consistent decision and development progress, given at will and choice by the ModTeam, so that they want to continue improving C2C. We all feel strongly that C2C should be the best it could be, and we need to understand that with care come a strong individual sense of what it should be. We must remember to work together to do our best to resolve these conflicts. Personally I see opportunity in heated debate, so that their is passion to come to solutions. Everyone's disagreements, mistakes, and experiments could eventually lead to breakthroughs.... As long as they don't interfere with the health of the C2C project and progress. Ongoing debate and discussion should be encouraged as the forge of making progress, not division. The blueprint and structural foundation is strengthened by the ModTeam, as C2C continues to be willing to reinvent itself, while making progress in building it. The C2C community is empowered by the free exploration of ideas and discussion and learning how to mod, so that the vision of C2C evolves.

    I think we should all remember that we are united in the goal of making C2C the best of what the game of Civilization is, for the love, fun, and exploration of it, and that together we have a better chance of making it happen.

    (I also talk a little about this here -http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=11637646&postcount=605)
  9. Hydromancerx

    Hydromancerx C2C Modder

    Feb 27, 2008
    California, USA
    Just so you know I added a Venus of Willendorf wonder. The J gave it the ok. Also added a Childbirth Hut. I do not think that is too sexually explicit either.
  10. Azurian

    Azurian The Azurian

    Apr 10, 2012
    Florida, USA

    @ Laura

    Hello and welcome to CFC and C2C. I agree sexuality was an important catalyst in shaping many events, ideologies, and almost every culture in human history has a "rulebook" on what is acceptable in their culture on the topic of love and copulation. Some cultures believe sexuality must be enforced and regulated, while others see it as a celebration of the human body.

    I think you are missing an important element in your unorthodox discussion. Gender roles. For example in Amazon culture, women are the hunters and the males are the caretaker of children. Gender roles are not included in C2C because the 0.001% of content it could add is not worth the negativity certain players may feel.

    Also 16% of the world population is non-religious, which means 84% is religious!

    Social issues are important, but they are not really a wortheile investment to add to C2C, not because of family friendliness and politcally correct mantras, but because they dont fit the overal flavor of the game.

    The main issue Laura is C2C is a democracy, and if we allowed ssexuality in the game we will have to add a lot of controversial issues that will add maybe 2% to the game but led to 40% of the players leaving.

    These are things that most people of the C2C Community might have an objection too:

    (Not Safe for Work- Never be in C2C)
    Spoiler :

    Sexual Deviants and Fetishes (necrophilia, pedophilia, neophilia etc..)
    Euthanasia / Right to Die

    Gender Roles
    Hate crimes
    Holocaust/ hitler
    Hyphenated American (an epithet commonly used from 1890 to 1920 to disparage Americans who were of foreign birth or origin, and who displayed an allegiance to a foreign country. )

    Child Exploitation
    Domestic violence
    Prescription Drug Ads to Consumers
    Death Penalty
    Felon Voting
    School violence
    Feminism (women rights is ok thou)
    llegal Immigration
    Gay Marriage ( I think Awarness and Rights is the limit)
    Sexuality of Abraham Lincoln
    Adultery ("consensual sex without wedlock")
    Age of consent
    Genital modification and mutilation (Africa)

    Now these are issues that are yellow light an can be controversial but with the right presentation can be included in C2C. 90% of people will not be offended by most of this, but some are contriversial to many depending on their cullture and personal views.
    Spoiler :

    Medical Marijuana
    Science/ Biology/ Health
    Allergy - causes of.
    Allopathic medicine
    Alzheimer's disease
    Alternative medicine and closely related issues
    Assisted suicide
    Aspartame controversy
    Asperger's syndrome and Autism
    Astrology as a "science"
    Bates method
    Biology and sexual orientation
    Birth defect
    Black hole information paradox
    Blood transfusions
    Cancer cures
    Cesarean section
    Cochlear Implant
    Cold fusion
    Conjoined twins
    Depleted uranium
    Ebola virus
    Electrical sensitivity
    Family Planning
    Flat Earth Society
    Genetic Engineering
    Genetically modified foods (or GM food(s))
    Gender differences.
    Gypsies as a race.
    Heritability of IQ
    Bit Torrent
    BitTorrent (protocol)
    Blu-ray Disc
    Criticism of Microsoft
    Criticism of Windows Vista
    Criticism of Apple
    Console wars
    Digital rights management esp re opening -- see talk and archive
    Electric car
    Electronic voting
    Factory farming
    File sharing
    GNU/Linux naming controversy – discussed extensively at Talk:Linux
    HD DVD
    Entertainment Software Rating Board
    Duke Nukem Forever and other development hell games
    Hip hop culture, hip hop music, and rapping
    Entertainment restriction

    This is controversial historyto some people
    Disclosure- I am Mexican American

    Spoiler :
    2011 Sendai earthquake and tsunami
    1953 Iranian coup d'état.
    1973 coup in Chile.
    1992 Los Angeles riots.
    9/11 or September 11 terrorist attacks.
    American Airlines Flight 77
    American Revolution
    Apollo moon landing hoax accusations
    Armenian Genocide
    Aryan invasion theory
    Atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki
    Battle of Cuito Cuanavale
    Berlin wall
    Black Power
    Bloody Sunday (1972)
    Bosnia and Herzegovina - 1992-1995 war.
    Bromberg Bloody Sunday
    Centre Party Germany
    Chicano nationalism - also see Mexican American.
    Cold war era - i.e. Cuban missile crisis
    Communism - histories of communist regimes.
    Confederate States of America
    Jim Crow laws or racial segregation
    Constitutional law
    Crusades into the holy land
    Cyprus dispute
    D-Day 1944 allied invasion of France.
    East Germany (the German Democratic Republic 1949-90).
    Falkland Islands
    French Revolution
    Great Depression
    Green Revolution
    Holocaust denial
    Ireland - history, including 1850s Irish Potato Famine.
    Irredentism in Italy, China, Mexico and elsewhere.
    Japanese American internment during WWII.
    Jesus Christ - historical/ biographical studies (the Bible and other sources).
    Jews in Ukraine and Poland, "Ukrainian and Polish antisemitism".
    Kennedy assassinations of 1963 and 1968.
    Kosovo War
    Kurdish genocide
    Kuril Islands
    Libyan Civil War
    Louisiana Purchase of 1803
    Majestic 12
    Marijuana - illegalization of the drug.
    Mexican-American War (see also History of Mexican-Americans).
    Middle Ages
    Native Americans in the United States
    Nordic race theories of global domination (see also Aryan race and white race)
    Okinawa - U.S. rule 1945-1972.
    Operation Wetback - mass deportation program of Mexicans (either illegal aliens, naturalized citizens and Mexican-Americans) from the US in the 1950s.
    Other Losses
    Panama canal, US rule in Canal Zone 1903-1979.
    Philippines under US rule 1898-1946.
    Prohibition in the US 1919-33.
    Puerto Rico - annexation of the island by the U.S.
    Quebec separatism
    Roswell UFO Incident
    Numerous episodes of Russian-Polish relations
    Soviet Union or the USSR.
    Spanish-American war
    Spanish civil war
    Spanish Inquisition
    Stem cell research
    Texas Revolution of 1836, known by the battle of the Alamo.
    The Rape of Nanking (book).
    Tiananmen Square protests of 1989.
    Trail of Tears
    TWA Flight 800
    U.S. Civil War
    U.S. Latinos or Hispanics.
    U.S. War of 1812
    United States presidential election, 2000
    Unidentified flying objects or UFOs
    Numerous episodes of Ukrainian-Polish relations
    Numerous episodes of Ukrainian-Russian relations.
    Vietnam war
    Watergate scandal
    White supremacy
    Women's rights and feminism.
    causes and effects of World War I.
    causes and effects of World War II.

    These are future Techs that might be added to the Future Eras that fit with "love" and "sexuality".

    Synthetic Womb or Synthetic birth- born by artificial conception device like in the movie The Island (2005)

    Pheromones Will not be based only on human attraction chemicals,since they are chemical signals for many social functions.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pheromones

    will tame it down to include all chemicals signals, including; making food smell better, creating smells in virtual worlds, pheromone Antennas that guide hive mind missles, a religion that uses pheromones to "smell god", flowers that release happiness pheromes to control a population...etc..

    Designer Children- chosing the genes of kids, genetic caste like in the book Brave new world

    Aphrodisiacs will be a class of drugs, in C2C will tame it down to create love and social bonds between people, more of a Cupids bow and arrow than turbocharged sex hormones.


    In C2C, Aphrodisiactic stimulants affecting the dopamine system will create Runner's high, euphoria, social bonds and attempt to improve on the existing opioids: morphine, diacetylmorphine (heroin), and codeine of the oxycodone group, instead of raging "honeymoons".

    Aphrodisiaca religionA religion called Aphrodisiaca might be created in which they worship a goddess that they only can admire when under the influence of illegal aphrodisiacs, similar to Greeks Aphdrodite love cults. Will tame it down in C2C to make the love toward the goddess a "motherly" love than a sex goddess.

    Progenitor birth- an ancestor of an individual in a direct line of descent along which some or all of the ancestral genes could theoretically have passed.

    Robotica/ Binaryamor religion- people see robots as the children of mankind, and beleive gods plan is to introduce the concept of love to robots..family love, romantic love, social love, in the style of the movie Artificial intelligence. Now, the copulation of humans and robots, well thats a Civic choice that is not for me to decide.

    When it comes to sexuality and love, this is what I believe is best for C2C
    Social Bond

    and these themes affect:

    Thr only element of sexuality i can see in C2C are "adult enterainment" buildings that I can count in one hand and are abstract enough that the average 12 year old will not immediately think they are sexual in nature.


    Gentleman's Club (industrial era)
    Redlight District (modern)
    Virtual Erotica (digital era)
    Aphrodisiac Lounge (cyber era)
    Cybernetic Cathouse (nano era)
    Moon Bordello (solar)
    Galactic Cantina (galactic)

    ..and thats all that should be C2C, a chain of buildings for adult entaintainment that represent the changes to sexuality, and a person can use his or her imagination to think what happens in there.
  11. rightfuture

    rightfuture Emperor

    Mar 11, 2008
    The idea of the 'Breast'eraunt, that started with Hooters, plays heavily in an alternate 'rewrite' history series that I really like. The Cross-Time Engineer series by Leo Frankowski

    The protagonist makes a empire of pink-pony pub restaurants in medieval Poland. (among many more significant and intelligent changes)
    After seeing the recent success of 'breast'eraunt chains like Bone-daddy's and Twin peaks here in Dallas, the idea doesn't seem so silly. Sex sells.

    (Needless to say the series could be a great inspiration to C2C for any C2C modder who reads it)

    To further my point that alternate history fiction could be very useful for C2C.

    Here is a review from Amazon:
    Excellent 5 Star Book Series
    "This is the best time travel series in a realistic timeline ever written. Before these books, L. Sprague De Camp had held that title for decades with his "Lest Darkness Fall", but it was too short. Mark Twain may be the most famous with his "Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court", but that is more light hearted than serious, and disappointing at the end. The Conrad series delivers on all the promise, and even after 5 books, it still leaves you wanting more. (There is a sixth book now, but Conrad is a minor character, and I've reviewed it separately.)

    I say realistic timeline, because Conrad isn't really from our timeline. I was a little suspicious right from the start, but it wasn't until Conrad reminisced about the Mongols invading France that I thought "Hey, wait a minute". It turns out that it didn't happen to us (even without Conrad). But the historians I read agree that it would have, except the great Khan died and the Mongols had a war of succession which they never recovered from. This is often used as an example of the actions of one person changing history. I never even heard the story, until Conrad got me to look it up. Go figure.

    This is an action story, with fighting and sex, where Conrad overcomes insurmountable obstacles, and usually has a good time along the way. The author doesn't just ignore the time travel though. He writes a science fiction sub-plot about that too. In fact, the author is obviously an engineer, not just because it takes an engineer for Conrad to build the things he does, but also from the way the books were planned out and crafted. Obviously the author planned the Mongol invasion and built the series around it, but he also foreshadows romantic sub-plots 3 books in advance.

    I love these books, and share other reviewers disbelief that they haven't been reprinted since 1993. If you've already read them, and love them too, you might want to try "The Misplaced Legion (Videssos Cycle, Book 1)" by Harry Turtledove, about elements of one of Caesar's legions travelling into Rome's future of the Byzantine Empire. Only it's not the real Byzantine Empire, it's a parallel universe where magic works. Aside from that, it's Byzantium during the 1100's written by a Byzantine historian. And of course you'll want to read the "Island in the Sea of Time" series by S. M. Stirling, about modern day Nantucket going back in time to the Trojan War. These works are different, but also 5 star time travel books. "

    These books are really good. He approaches everything as an engineer and in depth, while being fun.
  12. Azurian

    Azurian The Azurian

    Apr 10, 2012
    Florida, USA
    I might even change the word Aphrodisiac to Soma so the more concervative of players may not get offended or irritated.
    Soma will be based on the Soma in A brave new World by Aldous Huxley and Indian religion.


  13. Thunderbrd

    Thunderbrd C2C War Dog

    Jan 2, 2010
    Las Vegas
    Ok, so personally I feel that those issues do have a place in C2C (yeah pretty much all those listed as not cool in Azure's post (especially Hitler and the holocaust)) but they need to not be thrown in lightly but rather with all the deep impact that MAKES them so controversial. They should be presented, as everything else in Civ should be, with an OBJECTIVE approach that honors all opinions and really delivers the social disturbance they represent into the game via game effect. Someone mentioned earlier some really good points about that acceptance or rejectance of various values on a cultural (civ) basis should be definitive grounds for diplomatic grievances - I mean just look at how much our own American culture pisses off Islamic sensibilities and has led to great resent and conflict there.

    How to implement should be more a matter of setting up those yes/no civics we had been talking about earlier so imo it should simply be a wait.

    Oh, and Pornography is no technology... its been with us throughout all of history as some have stated. What it mostly represents on a social level is the way we've found we can profit from instilling prudish values into a community - take open sexuality away and sell it back to them in shadowy secrets, thereby making it a taboo and we all know well that humanity is certainly defined by a desire to have and break taboos.
  14. Azurian

    Azurian The Azurian

    Apr 10, 2012
    Florida, USA
    Mod Team
    Especially Ls612, Joseph II, and Vokarya

    Do you find this stuff controversial that I will be adding to the game?

  15. Hydromancerx

    Hydromancerx C2C Modder

    Feb 27, 2008
    California, USA
    Amazon as in South American region or Amazon as in the "Amazons" of Europe?

    Whats wrong with Immigration as an issue? I mean we do have an Immigration civic. I think a border fence would be a possible civic building in the future. Likewise illegal smuggling is already in the game under crime related stuff (mostly drug trafficking than human trafficking).

    I plan in the future to add them as Romani culture in the future. I see nothing wrong with including them with all the other cultures. In fact I think thy would be offended if they were not included as their own culture.
  16. Sarah Starlight

    Sarah Starlight Chieftain

    Jul 6, 2012
    @ Hydro
    I think he meant it might offend some people, but he never said what time in history thou haha!
  17. Samin

    Samin Warlord

    Mar 1, 2012
    Death Penalty (another item on the no-go list) is also in the game with multiple buildings (crime punishment) but I think the key here is that they are not added glorifying it.
    I live in Germany and we're pretty sensitive about the whole nazi thing. Denying the holocaust is a crime, same for showing pictures of Hitler or nazi symbols (especially swastikas). But it's allowed to talk about and even show those things in a historical, non-glorifying context (e.g. documentary) and I feel like the same applies here for this mod. That's also why hitler can't be a leaderhead because that could be considered as glorifying (because you could play as him and lead him to victory).

    And the Hitler-as-leaderhead issue really shows to me that it's not about "Hitler was a really bad guy so he shouldn't be in the mod" because other historical bad guys (or bad things) are the game like Ghengis Khan or clear references to the Crusades and that's not considered offensive or insensitive at all - for various reasons but that's how it is.
  18. Praetyre

    Praetyre King

    Nov 19, 2009
    Auckland, New Zealand
    Ok, I'm genuinely confused by some of these.

    I say this as a supporter of the death penalty and a hardcore pro-lifer; I'm not clear on why abortion clinics would be more controversial than, say, crucifixion crosses or other means of execution as buildable things.
    Kind of irrelevant, frankly, unless you have, I don't know, special types of crimes that are brought down by graveyard buildings and increased by schools. Incidentally, what is neophilia? An attraction to new things?

    No suicide booths, then. Not sure why this is worse than the death penalty or human cloning, though.

    Can't you already do this if you run an Inquisition against Christianity in your cities? Not sure what else you can really do with this other than, I don't know, giving harsher diplomatic penalties between certain religious groups (Abrahamic-Pagan, Christian-Mormon and those sorts of disputes)
    What exactly is so NSFW about anarchism? It's just a political philosophy, no more inherently adult than fascism or democracy. It would be weird to implement in C2C, but that's because the game mechanics are kind of based on the assumption there's a central government to begin with. Besides, who doesn't want some bomb-throwing anarchist stereotypes or Guy Fawkes mask wearing Russian intelligence patsies spicing up the crimes and events in the later eras?
    Similar to Christophobia; I've actually suggested giving some option for civics that reward cultural homogenity, which would potentially put Israeli culture on the chopping block in your cities (or at an advantage).
    Well, we do have female versions of units; it would probably be too unbalancing to have unisex gender roles in ancient societies anyway, with a much greater soldiery potential.

    I think there should be penalties for having too many cultures around in a city, realistically speaking; the real controversy comes over whether you put those down to environment or nature.
    He's part of the leader pack anyway; rest falls under the points I made for antisemitism.
    Not really sure how this would even work; some form of culture mechanic? I can see good gameplay potential coming out of this, though obviously with much more than America involved.

    I would agree with you if this means sexual exploitation, but I can see a perfectly legitimate role for reflecting the role of child labour in society, perhaps by giving a :production: penalty to education buildings and civics, forcing the player to choose between a more manually or more academically oriented path for their Civ-youth.
    We have Crime (Assault)- rest is all down to cultural attitudes which fall outside the scope of our existing mechanics to even simulate, and would grant miniscule impact anyway.
    Not sure what's so bad about this; we have drug store buildings and pharmaceutical goods; seems perfectly SFW to have a Merck-equivalent corporation to dole em out, and advertisements with accompanying social issues (generic, not just for drugs) represented throughout the eras, from private town cryers to Futurama-style dream-adverts.
    You checked our punishment buildings, MrAzure? We have everything from crucifixion crosses to lethal injections; all we need is an agony booth :p
    Suffrage would be an annoying civic category to implement, since logically it should force the player to choose a category if they have a democratic civic, forbid it for some civs like Monarchy and make it optional for civics like Fascism or Federal
    See domestic violence.
    Why is gay rights allowed but feminism isn't? I'm no fan of either, but this seems like a double standard to me, and I'd definitely say feminism is less controversial and has had more impact on human history.

    I'm with Hydro on this; this is one of the biggest and yet least talked about issues in our Modern era, and it would give a real impetus to choose some of the more restrictive immigration civics.

    Hey, Tropico 3 was rated T, and it had it. Would probably amount to being one of Hydro's civic buildings, though the effects would be quite a tough one (most religions should get a penalty to it while the happiness penalty or benefit might vary based upon a society's "social liberalness" value; almost a kind of generic property at the civic level)
    Crime (Solicitation)
    Already a building.
    Why this, in particular? How would it even be represented or have any impact on gameplay whatsoever?

    The hell? I can think of a huge number of controversial issues surrounding Lincoln, but that wouldn't be among them.

    Can't see this as anything but a potential crime building with harsher penalties from certain civics based on a social liberality gradient.


    Not sure what impact this has; don't see anything wrong with it anyway.
    Transhumanism is always going to make this an elephant in the living room; I can see a role for this in a submod for controversial content if handled well.

    Well, I guess you could make some foods and buildings give more :) while giving :yuck:. We already do this to an extent with our agricultural civics and some of the big food buildings.
    Hey, we have a full on drug trade; this ought to be easy.
    I'm confused; you listed this as a red light issue.
    I assume here you are referring to the mis/overdiagnosis of this. Can't really see a way of representing it anyway, other than some random event that reduces productivty in your civ for 10 years or something and boosts income from your health clinics.
    A planned disease, from what DH and Hydro tell me.
    Even vanilla has this; alcohol and it's associated buildings give :yuck:. We also have the Rehab Clinic.
    Seems a tad irrelevant, frankly.
    Alternative medicine buildings could be pretty interesting; I mean, we do have shaman's huts and the like giving tacit endorsement to naturopathy on some level. Might mess up our health building balance, though.
    See allergies.
    See Allopathic medicine.
    See allergies.

    See Abortion and Euthanasia.
    We could do an event like this, actually; would provide some spice to the modern era.

    Like ADHD, I'm guessing you mean the vaccine controversy; I don't think it's prevalent enough to be represented as an ingame event anyway, and it's not infectious so it can't be modeled under the disease system.

    Hydro's stated we aren't going into fantasy, and I'm guessing he counts the paranormal as such.

    See allopathic medicine.
    Your suggestions for the future eras are going to make this an absolutely unavoidable topic, especially for Transhuman. We also reflect this with the penalties Animal Testing Lab, Cloning Lab and RePet Store bring.
    Pretty much irrelevant.
    See allergies.
    We'll probably have to take a position on this one sooner or later in Galactic. No one outside of high-level scientific circles is going to seriously loose sleep over this, and they don't play C2C anyway.
    Relatively few religious oppose this, and they aren't represented in C2C's anyway, unless you want the Jehovah's Witnesses in or something.

    It's already a wonder, and has been since Civ II; other than that, this will just be an altmed issue.
    Not sure how this is an issue of any sort; a technology, maybe. I'm a product of one, if it helps.
    See allopathic medicine.
    Could make a cool building; might get people confused if you call it a massage parlor though :p
    Not sure what's controversial about this, absent of bioethics or cloning issues.
    I've heard of a couple of fringe groups in America who oppose this, but staying away from the African stuff, it's more or less irrelevant to gameplay unless you want some :health: giving national wonder or something.
    See Bioethics. This is already a major part of Transhuman.
    What the hell is controversial about this? Sorry if I sound confrontational, but is there some doubt as to their efficacy? Otherwise, they seem about as edgy as crutches.
    Not really edgy, just futuristic; it'll probably be an important tech in the future eras.
    Not sure how they'd impact anything.
    Can't see how this would be represented; fundamentalist civics give :science: penalties anyway. Guess you could give :mad: from Theory of Evolution for some religions, but stances are by no means universal across different religions or sects.
    We have cryonic prisons, and I'm fairly certain sleeper ships will be one of the first settler units you'll be using in Galactic.
    I've actually suggested this; it would have to give a :strength: boost at a harsh :health; penalty to the areas it's used in.
    These all seem to just be odder varieties of diseases; not so much controversial as just plain difficult to simulate in our current environment. I'm not a believer in the "affluenza" theory, but it could make an interesting balance mechanic.
    Done and done. All we need is negative corporations to act as drug cartels, which is partly covered already by the crime system.
    Well, we have SO and DH on hand for that :p Other than that, see allergies.
    Seems a perfectly legit candidate for a disease to me.
    See astrology.

    It's a project; see creationism.
    See abortion; otherwise, it could make an interesting early Modern technology that gives you a :) bonus at the expense of population growth, and allows a couple of new resources (giving some decidedly noncombative uses for Rubber).
    No one in their right mind has seriously believed this since 600 BC, and before that, no one had a strong competing hypothesis.
    See Cloning. Hydro all but states this is what Uplifting amounts to.
    See obesity.
    See gender roles.
    They are an odd one, but I don't see why Romani can't be a culture in it's own right. I've often argued we need some cultures that work better as nomadic than settled, to allow the player to pull a Genghis Khan.
    This isn't Creatures; it's rather outside of the game's scope of simulate.
    Many hunting buildings get a :mad: with Ecology, you can sacrifice bovine units for :) and :culture: with certain buildings boosting it, and we have Bull Leaping- seems well within our purview already. Course, we'd have to have other forms of controversial bloodsport too...
    Piracy is one of the planned crimes, and we do have Mapster.

    Too minor to be a tech, any more than VCRs vs DVDs. There's no real reason to go into that level of detail.
    This just runs into copyright issues; other than that, it's down to advantages and disadvantages of corporations and random events.
    My stance on which is like Henry Kissinger's on the Iran-Iraq war. My civ is going to be a PC using civ if I have anything to say about it :p
    See BitTorrent.
    Just a Transhuman/alt-modern tech with some niche appeal for the Green civic users. DRJ would love it, that's for sure.
    Kind of like suffrage, though you did crib from the wonderful CTP2 by including Virtual Democracy as a future civic option.

    Social networks are undoubtedly a relevant early Transhuman technology; I can see them and their associated privacy issues playing a very interesting role as an extension of the Internet wonder and as wonders in their own right. Obviously, copyright means we'd have to rename it to a fascimile, like we do with the corps.
    See obesity and bullfighting.
    See BitTorrent.
    Too weird and obscure to even have any sort of discernable representation whatsoever- at least black hole information paradoxes have practical relevant to space travel.
    See Blu-Ray.
    Now this I like. A bloodsport for all ages... in both senses. Maybe a boost with the Charity civic?
    See GNU/Linux.
    Now that would be hilarious.
    I say we need more of it! We have casino buildings, but nothing for online gambling yet, or futuristic equivalents like pazaak and sabacc. Fifty quatloos for some futuristic buildings in this line!
    See my comments on erotica as a genre.
    I did have a censorship/media civic category proposed for World 2009; all it amounted to was a tradeoff between :culture: and :espionage:, though I can see other factors weighing in too.

    I'm all in favour of adding new natural disaster events, and that would make one hell of a tradeoff for using nuclear power.
    Revolutions, anyone?
    We have riots already; rest goes under culture differences.
    I've advocated having really high level spy/terrorist activity destroy wonders; other than that, you can't build the WTC past modern anyway.
    Hijackings seem like decent high-level crime/terrorism/random event candidates for modern.
    Revolutions, again.
    Falls under culture differences.
    Too weird and cranky for any sort of serious inclusion.
    There's a mod out there with an Ethnic Cleansing function to purge foreign cultures; fits with my comments on culture earlier.
    In the interests of making the culture system less convoluted, I say C2C says yea to this theory.
    You can nuke cities already; not much else to say about it.
    Pass; my knowledge of African history is miniscule.
    Didn't someone suggest this as a wonder for Closed immigration civic only?
    Guess that'd give you a benefit to only having sub-Saharan African cultures around or something.
    A combo of religious and cultural issues, both in real life and in any similar thing for C2C.
    Ditto, with ethnic cleansing mixed in.
    I say we do this like Hearts of Iron does partisans, with culture and religion mechanics and Revolutions mixed in.
    Not clear on why this is a sore spot or what it could do in C2C.
    See black power and my comments on culture issues.
    I smell a Dieselpunk aircraft a-brewin.
    My music pack has this as the backdrop for Modern; ideological conflicts should definitely play as big, if not a bigger, role than religious conflicts in civ diplomacy.
    Even vanilla has this.
    Splinter civ name for a Revolution'd civ with American culture, far as I'm concerned. Otherwise, if you have this, you'd have to have Bavaria and Prussia and other regional cultures for Germany and other such nations.
    See apartheid.

    King Richard's Crusade, natch.
    See Northern Ireland.
    Just a really big amphibious invasion far as C2C goes.

    Russian puppet state with German culture far as C2C goes.
    This one did lead to an argument in my thread on cultures; it all depends on what approach we want to take.
    British settlement which Argentina wants to snatch because of territorial proximity; no more, no less.
    We have revolutions already.
    See Armenian Genocide.
    I'm in favour of staying away from the specific causes of depressions; I have quite firm views on the subject (ABCT) that would probably ruffle some other folks feathers should we discuss the subject beyond being a game-balance oriented random event.
    Well, I put it Norman Borlaug as a Great Scientist; this otherwise could make a cool series of techs, and goes in well with the exponential nature of my city-pop level numbers.
    See Armenian Genocide.
    Ditto. See Antisemitism, as well.
    See Apollo hoax.
    See Northern Ireland.
    See Northern Ireland. We have Israeli culture anyway; no reason not to have a civto go along with it.
    See Northern Ireland and Bromberg.
    A bit like apartheid meets partisans; would be hard to model, but could present interesting issues if done well.
    He is one of the Great Prophet names I've added; fine from a Christian and Islamic perspective provided they can accept the way game mechanics result in random naming, and Asatruists et al aren't going to find Confucius any more valid either. I have suggested making certain religions require Great Prophets to found for realism and game balance reasons, Christianity being among em, but that discussion seems to have died down.
    See Antisemitism.
    I think we once had JFK as an American leaderhead; other than that, assassinations are pretty similar to hijackings.
    See my comments on Bosnia/Herzegovina.
    See Falkland Islands; we don't have many Japanese users here anyway.
    Revolutions meets Islamic fundamentalists.
    You can buy off cities and they still retain their native culture, pretty much what this amounts to.

    Conspiracy theories might fall under paranormal, but I can see a role for secret societies (Saints and Sinners has em as a mechanic, and the terrorism mechanic from White Lies Black Ops could also provide inspiration. If we can have Scientology, why not Freemasonry as a religion?)
    Vanilla Civ IV has him as a leader; nothing you can really do beyond that besides running Fascism and sending out Police Units to simulate the Red Guard.
    We've got Hemp and Drugs already; bit specific otherwise.
    Could make an interesting scenario, I suppose; culture and civs provide the ingredients, and we have Santa Anna as a Mexican leaderhead.

    Medieval Era, anyone? Not sure why this is more controversial than any other age; it's the bedrock of the entire fantasy genre, to start with.
    We have many of those tribes already as cultures, and Hydro's putting out more; other than that, this is a generic culture issue.
    See Hitler.
    See black power.
    Culture issue.
    Culture and immigration issue, with a sort of lighter ethnic cleansing thrown in.
    Other Losses
    Forget this; getting the canal build and represented in game in the first place would be a game balance and mechanics nightmare. Closest thing I can think of is some Python. script allowing ships to pass through a city on one tile of land through to adjacent water tiles with a particular wonder in place, and that wouldn't fit the Suez Canal at all.
    See Okinawa.

    See marijuana prohibition. Damn, a Mafia themed mod in the style of Afterworld would be cool...
    I'd love to see em as a culture, provided we also get Hyderabad, California, Texas, the Confederacy and the like.
    See Okinawa.
    Ditto. We have French culture as a requirement for Canadian culture anyway.

  19. Praetyre

    Praetyre King

    Nov 19, 2009
    Auckland, New Zealand
    Too vague to really say much about that hasn't been said in other contexts already.
    Could make a cool random event- we have the Secret Military Base to store it :p
    I've always wondered what it is that attracts Poles so strongly to historical strategy games, particularily modding communities. Polish civ mods are to historical TBS's what nude mods are to RPGs. Not that I mind; I love the Poles and I applaud their taste in games, a trait shared by many other Eastern Euros. The Witcher was quite a breath of fresh air too. But I digress.
    Some kind of Judaism wonder?
    We have it, and it's only draw other than generic :culture: is :gold:, hilariously enough.
    See Falkland Islands.
    We've got this pretty well simulated already; all that's really left is to put in the culture and deslaverizaton mechanics into it, something akin to the penalties you got initially decommunizing in Rhye's (something that wouldn't go amiss for our own communist civics, actually).
    You've got Russia, and you can go Fascism-Communist-Marxist. You've also got the Palace of the Soviets. Say no more.
    See Mexican-American war.
    A really nasty case of Revolutions.
    The Inquisition mod's been there since RoM; I don't expect it'll become an issue in future.
    Kind of similar to abortion and cloning; an early transhuman tech with potentially society changing consequences on the road to transhumanism.
    Texas culture meets my comments on Mexican-American War. Remember also we have the Alamo wonder.
    Too specific.
    The unrest penalties China got from switching away from Communism in 1989.
    See my comments on Native Americans.
    Random event, maybe?
    See Spanish Civil War.
    See culture and Chicanos.
    See Mexican-American War.
    Too specific- term limits are similar to suffrage in this regard. Has ties to electronic ballots too.
    Random events/paranormal.
    Probably Falkland/Northern Ireland like.
    See East Germany.

    See Cold War; we have a Vietcong unit and I'd like to see guerilla units like the Technical make a comeback.
    Another random event candidate.
    See black power.
    Already listed.
    This doesn't really matter much; scenarios would start close enough that anything could trigger it, and you're not likely to get the same conflict outside of these scenarios.
  20. anunknownman

    anunknownman Warlord

    Mar 31, 2012
    outer space

    the Sanhedrin is basically a jewish council that acts as an ecuivlent of a courthouse in civ that enforced jewish laws (or the halacha as we call them).

    also i think racism and sexuality should be brought into the mod but in a way that doesn't affend any of the races\cultures\faiths that are present in the mod...
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