1. We have added a Gift Upgrades feature that allows you to gift an account upgrade to another member, just in time for the holiday season. You can see the gift option when going to the Account Upgrades screen, or on any user profile screen.
    Dismiss Notice

Why is the western world declining?

Discussion in 'World History' started by Arent11, Nov 10, 2017.

?

Why is the western world declining?

  1. Demography

    3 vote(s)
    7.9%
  2. General decadency, too much peace, too much welfare

    7 vote(s)
    18.4%
  3. Inner conflicts

    4 vote(s)
    10.5%
  4. There is a decline? Nope, I don't think so.

    17 vote(s)
    44.7%
  5. Other (Please specify in comments)

    7 vote(s)
    18.4%
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. r16

    r16 not deity

    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2008
    Messages:
    5,521
    not exactly about thread , ı will readily admit , but let's say there is a continuity thing here .


    "molon sabe" ... ı can't find the newspaper as ı type this , so apologies in case of wrong spelling and stuff . But that's reportedly Greek for "If you dare, come and take" , during a spat in which the Greek Defence Minister (?) targets the leader of the Main Opposition in Turkey . So according to latest claims 18 "habitable or semi habitable" islands are among the 156 geographic locations that fell under Turkish jurisdiction in 2002 (at least according to Ankara) and yet are under Greek control now . Because A-K-P says extremely nothing on subject , in contrast to having an opinion anything down to mosque locations on Cuba , political opposition always uses it ; after the mutual show of Lozan disagreements the Greeks love to rub it in , so there you are . Main Opposition , simply because they know they will never win the elections , has made it a campaign pledge that their leader will take the islands back in 2019 . Everybody knows no "Muslim" will ever notice that Priests are "blessing" the takeovers and Byzantine flags are reportedly flown . Which might be Greek Military banners , ı wouldn't rightly know .


    time for a Turkish saying then ... Ders alınsaydı Tarih hiç tekerrürden ibaret olur muydu ? Equals History would not repeat itself if people learned from it . Nobody has even bothered about just this year so the Greeks must be confident , having a little fun even and never losing a single night's of sleep on why nobody ever expected Goverments of the Turkish Republic to gain territory , because the whole system was built up not to lose territory again , after 240 years if one needs any known reference point . New Turkey , well , has changed the world in a fortnight , we hear , organizing stiff resistance to the Orange Messiah's Kudüs infidelity , getting 128 votes in favour of a Palestinian state with East Kudüs as its capital . With 9 against , 35 abstaining and 21 not showing up in the UN on the day . ı would have a feeling 140 would be the average number any pro-Palestinian thing would have gained , but no , "Muslims" defeated Trump . Even Christian states had a fear but they were encouraged when the Turkish delegation showed up . Exactly why what comes next will be ignored , but let's have it for the record .


    some typically hare-brained American general has told his troops on exercise in Norway that a war is coming . The quarter to 1/8 White Wabbit (Mattis to American folks here and an epitome of the learned general according to some book from 2003) is on the same tangent . Some Evil Commies are asking for it and a war might take place on the Korean Peninsula . Yeah , some proxy war in which Trump wins as he was born to do . Let Americans believe that . We know whatever happens in the interim , whatever the settlement , we will end up in the opposite sides and Greek presence will be forcibly removed . People will die on those islands . They will be mostly yours . You will be listening to the nets , yours asking for support , for reinforcements , for cover . Your Ministers will not be volunteering to die with them . Nor you will be left in a position to do anything about it . Beware of what you are condemning .
     
  2. Kyriakos

    Kyriakos Alien spiral maker

    Joined:
    Oct 15, 2003
    Messages:
    55,799
    Location:
    Thessalonike, The Byzantine Empire
    ^You have a lot of clowns, and having a 'main opposition party's' leader say that he will go to war to take islands from Greece is rather beyond cretinous. Maybe cretinous enough that the turkish public itself should sort of react -- cause it seems many in your country think it is awesome. It is stuff like that which shows that Turkey indeed must end in the near future, cause it is a warmongering loon country.
    Btw, you have no islands other than the two signed over with Lausannes; you lost the entire Aegean following the 1911 war with Italy, and the 1912 first balkan war.
     
  3. r16

    r16 not deity

    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2008
    Messages:
    5,521
    only because the Christian Coalition that's the EU (as they are called by the Party which happens to be friendly enough to Athens to give away Turkish land) said it would be better if those Turkish islands were turned over . All islands within 3 nautical miles of Turkish shore is Turkish or something , except the ones important enough to be named on paper and already occupied . There has to be one or two , with the 3000 odd in the Aegean . And let's make it clear , the sole reason Athens will be ignoring this page is that they not only believe but want to believe that the New Turkey is eternal and there will be no repercussions .
     
  4. Kyriakos

    Kyriakos Alien spiral maker

    Joined:
    Oct 15, 2003
    Messages:
    55,799
    Location:
    Thessalonike, The Byzantine Empire
    R16, consider that you narrowly survived mass riots, and then had a false-coup, all that in the three past years; your country is playing with red fire and red apples and should speak of no war itself if it could help it :p
    And, yes, Turkey is destabilizing the region by having the dream of neo-ottomanism. Losing the spectacled imperialist didn't help much either in that direction.
     
    Olleus likes this.
  5. r16

    r16 not deity

    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2008
    Messages:
    5,521
    changing the subject
    Spoiler :
    "you" refers to a CFC member in this post . ı believe you were born in late 70s and ı never encountered any claim of yours to be a strategist . Then the thing becomes that there are people who have been strategists longer than you have lived , no doubt still advising your Goverment and what not in some capacity . It's supposed to some good education now that both yours and my country are like close to the damned Russians , who had a massive capability in that Socialist mindset and the lot . More to the point , you have a "Church" that goes back like 3000 years ; all those priest guys did not actually refuse and ignore the glory of Athens and stuff , right ? So much that they would have no fear of the number 1492 , seeing it an almost religious duty even . A charateristics yours share with Israel , of all places . And if this is like the best ? That's exactly why people you would have every right to think as somewhat smart , in contrast to "smart" , will ignore this idea . And on the face of it , why shouldn't they ?

    everybody reads the news . Like an estimated 2 point 3 million men are "likely" to be in those militias -even if no number coming from New Turkey can be considered anything but fantastic bombastic . We both know all claims of independence and what not from both sides of the Aegean are a fabl like La Fontaine ; important to believe but you can't exactly see in real life . We both know Washington calls the shots here and there , meaning yours . Meaning your smart people do not even have to call on Tel Aviv and talk of mutual benefits of hydrocarbons off Cyprus ; now that after the Israelis were called "murderers" ( as soon as Obama , the so called secret Muslim won) . And all the theatrics were so brilliant that nobody ever bothered to believe that trade between Ankara and Tel Aviv like tripled . Primarily oil Kurds stole from Iraq and Ankara explained that as evil Iranians had captured Baghdad and were pillaging Iraq and selling oil to evil Israel . Uhm , stop the transfer , let them ship that with tankers around the Arabian Peninsula ? You know , instead of pipelines passing Turkey ? But , am sure , you already got the drift . Yours even have no fear that we might turn to Russians . They will even laugh to read a rant on how hard it was to get them into Syria and become a Superpower again . Or they were worse than the proverbial train watching oxen to get into action and might have done in 6 months tops by the Spring of 2016 , but they too got fixated by the Gods of War , the unbeatable Kurds and so on . And how they were like geniuses , you know , by bringing BSS to power , thinking like they could control him . Or they also much preferred to rob Turkey this way or the other . Thet are selling S-400 missiles to New Turkey , for 2 years and every press declaration is different . Because New Turkey wants to brag Moscow will protect it from the West and Moscow is tirelessly wink wink to the West , that it would not . ı have no doubt Putin will blame the experts he always refused to listen as they will all hear the faint rumble of tanks in Kremlin , in the din of incoming artillery and the screaming engines of the FACs above .

    and even then , yours will not be impressed . From a blog we learn America still rules the skies . When the current "champions" of each side join the battle , the only thing Su-35 somethings can do is to hope they won't get killed in the fight and catch a tanker to down so that the F-22 will run out of fuel and crash on the way back home . We have claims of the Western pilots that you might even see an F-22 on your nose , but you won't be able to engage because your guns or heat seekers still need radar data for the range . So a Flanker might carry 12 missiles to battle and it's stupid . For its pilot would have to fire 6 at least ; while the 8 missiles on the Raptor will each kill a dumb Russian . See , yours idiotly might dispatch a sea of armour , that tiresome bothersome cliche , all the way to Kamchatka and it's nothing . Yours deal with reality , much of it real funny . Like the Turkish version of Voice of Russia . It had a guest , a former victim of the Congregation . He told us that a "People's SWAT" had already established offices in 4 cities was nothing , media had to avoid mentioning such stuff . More important was the Party cheating about high courts . See , it's like fair when all segments of society are represented equally . So , with a 20% of the population say the Alevis , must have a 20% stake in courts' higher echelons . Wait , there is a twist , Alevis , kinda having no one abroad that might ever love them is not a high risk group like , say , the Right Wing . Like the almost Fascists , the former darlings of America or "Muslims" who run to the Arabs , you know to establish an empire over the Arabs . So , why do ı care if the Alevis have like 40% ? Shall we say there are x amount of judges in a given court system ? So when the Congregation and the party bring Democracy to Turkey it becomes x+y so that percentages will favour the "Muslims" . Democratic reform . Congregation becomes too powerful it becomes (x+y)-y . Democratic reform . There are elections of a sort and we discover 40% of the Judiciary are of the Congregation . Barely denied control becuase every other kind of judges formed a coalition . The Disgrace of July 15th and every Congregation member is sacked . The Party trims the numbers to get slight control , much opposition from "brothers-in-arms" to no avail . As x-y . Why , democratic reform . A little time passes . For total control , it's now (x-y)+y . And ? Why do people insult me with the pointless question ? It's of course a democratic reform .

    the same to happen with the Army of Petrol , to which the victims of the Congregation conspiracies returned with much fanfare . To cut down the career paths of "NATO officers" -an insult pertaining to supposed lack of Nationalist feelings of the said . Soon more and more and "Muslims" and we will all see what happens to the "Nationalist, Kemalist, whateverist" that remain in . And because people will remember , the guest who defended their choice with much gusto , remarks on stuff . You know , he is the guy who was on TV every night , calling everyone who watched TV on the night of Disgrace a coward . Yeah , he has been seen in company of a mafia boss , suspected to be of the Party ...

    islands ? Why , it turns out New Turkey's Foreign Minister has at least once said they are occupied . You know , when it started to be heard it was 15 islands . And apparently when it became 16 , the Last Prime Minister even visited the same using his passport to come in . You know , your media publishes the take overs , the military parades , the blessings and the lot . Such blatant awesomess for Athens make it "hard" for Ankara . Though ı don't know why . "Muslims" walk on water and get scotfree from anything . A philosophy teacher in an Imam Hatip . And mind you philosophy has been like totally hated by "Muslims" with doing every possible thing to remove it from schools ; no doubt because some scholar in the 9th Century talked against it , and in the 9th century philosophy was no doubts pagan . Can't tell what happened to it afterwards ; ı understood basically nothing from it when ı was in High School , but a lot of fancy words exist in it , right ? So , this teacher of 20 years , says all the female students who attend Physical Training classes in his school are conducting adultery , because you can identify they have legs when dressed that way . Dictionary says sweat or jogging suits . In addition to other womanly curves . Oh no , have no worries for the "Muslim" , after saying it's his right as a man to be aroused , all he will get is an extented leave like break . In a year or two , expect him to be a provincial director of schools and the like .

    all pessimism ? The PM has visited East Africa , asking the Sudanese President to give New Turkey an island . Right away . Think it's called Serakin . To become an hub of tourism . ı will , for once , just once , be happy ? Yeah , the Emir of Qatar was days ahead of the PM , visiting the West Africa . On the radio goes that Qatar had long wanted that island as a naval base . Of course , Al-Bashir of Sudan was not arrested in Istanbul during the Kudüs Conference , beacuse the ICC or whatever is not recognized and not because Party might one day face charges from the same . Yeah , that "Muslims" must also exist in Sudan , so that Al-Bashir can justify "angering" the Saudis . Who are like totally "sandwiched" by glorious New Turkey military bases ! Which you won't hear on the Voice of Russia , because they like totally cater to Nationalist idiots in Turkey and "sandwich" is English and "toast" is not . And simply because the future King of the Saudis has the ear of the Orange Messiah , the Last Prime Minister is immediately dispatched to Riyad . The Last Prime Minister really knows how to speak to superiors . And hell , even the visa crisis with the US ends . They were giving appointments to the January of 2019 . Or you could perhaps go to Germany and visit the consular offices there to get one to go to America .

    but then it will be reasonable . An F-16 day added in case yours find any reason to find Phantoms too unfair .

    yes , ask for a toast in Turkey and you will get a sandwich . One might also prefer to starve if too unhappy with the wrong word usage.

    edit: Regarding the length . My apologies , ı forget myself at times .
    Moderator Action: This is an unholy wall of text. You know that this is not appropriate for CFC. ~ Arakhor
     
    Last edited: Dec 29, 2017
  6. Hamilton321

    Hamilton321 Warlord

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2016
    Messages:
    287
    Location:
    Xiapi county
    I have one thing to say about this thread "Do not say 'Why were the former days better than these?' For you do not inquire wisely concerning this" (Ecclesiastes 7:10) NKJV
     
  7. inthesomeday

    inthesomeday Immortan

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2015
    Messages:
    2,798
    Dude, I wish the West would decline
     
  8. orasis

    orasis Prince

    Joined:
    Nov 17, 2006
    Messages:
    438
    I do not notice a decline at least of America. As for Western Europe, you basically sealed the deal with two stupid world wars.

    Another reason why Europe is in decline is because it was built around an economic model that no longer exists - Domestic Labor : International slavery/raw materials. America had a much easier time to withstand the two world wars because it was basically the opposite... domestic slavery (mostly domestic raw materials) / international commerce.

    As for Eastern Europe... they've always been behind and always will be.
     
  9. GoodSarmatian

    GoodSarmatian Jokerfied Western Male

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2006
    Messages:
    9,408
    Gender:
    Male
    The wars were a reason why the USA could become a superpowere because it was the only industrialized country left with an intact infrastructure, but I think we've pretty much recovered from that by now.

    That analysis also comes a couple of decades (maybe centuries) too late. WW2 brought the colonial empires down, but slavery was already long gone by then. We still practice the same somewhat subtle economic imperialism as the US.

    Can't really make those predictions. During Roman times the West was always underdeveloped and poor compared to the eastern provinces and it stayed this way until the Renaissance. Now Eastern Europe is lagging behind, but that can also change. Bulgaria's and Romania's GDP growth is more than twice as high as the EU average and their public debt to GDP ratio is among the lowest in the union.
     
  10. orasis

    orasis Prince

    Joined:
    Nov 17, 2006
    Messages:
    438
    Thanks for the help! Also, cheap energy. That's what all superpowers/empires have. Another reason Europe is meh now.


    Nope. Still relevant. Colonialism was just a nice word for slavery (You fly our flag, we take your ****, we provide you protection - from us. Nice deal). You copy, you mean. You copy.


    Sure I can. Slavs are going to Slav.

    Moderator Action: This is your only warning - singling out nationalities or ethnicities based purely on said distinction is not tolerated on this site. ~ Arakhor
    Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 1, 2018
  11. Tolina

    Tolina trust the pillars with your s e c r e t s

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2013
    Messages:
    10,524
    Location:
    Nightvale, US
    Wow, aren't you a charming folk.
     
    Omega124 likes this.
  12. Kyriakos

    Kyriakos Alien spiral maker

    Joined:
    Oct 15, 2003
    Messages:
    55,799
    Location:
    Thessalonike, The Byzantine Empire
    Romanians aren't slav either ^^
     
  13. GoodSarmatian

    GoodSarmatian Jokerfied Western Male

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2006
    Messages:
    9,408
    Gender:
    Male
    They're Byzantines, and all Byzantines west of Istan... Constantinople are Slavs.
    All except the Gypsies and Hungaria... Huns.
     
  14. Kyriakos

    Kyriakos Alien spiral maker

    Joined:
    Oct 15, 2003
    Messages:
    55,799
    Location:
    Thessalonike, The Byzantine Empire
    Don't romanians think of themselves as descendants of (lowly) latin roman soldiers?
    Not particularly byzantine :)
     
  15. Zardnaar

    Zardnaar Deity

    Joined:
    Nov 16, 2003
    Messages:
    8,837
    Location:
    Dunedin, New Zealand
    Variety of factors. The west peaked in the 1950's (my country 1913). The west has been in a relative decline since the 1970's.

    1. In the good ol days (50''s, 60's) you had a reasonably small amount of people with access to the world economy. The eastern block nations were cut off/out and Asia was either catching up or recovering from the war. China was also isolated. It was around 600-700 million people competing with each other, the other 2-4 billion people were not competing for the world economy in a major way.

    2. Smaller population. In WW2 the world had about 2 billion people. Now we have 7-8 billion IIRC.

    3. The 1970's. Cheap oil ended in 1973, American gas guzzlers struggled to sell in the rest of the world (and USA) Japan started making smaller cars that were reliable/fuel efficient. China also come in from the cold (Nixon), the rise of neo liberialism started here as well. The decline of the American auto industry started here.

    4. Deregulation of the stock market/finance. There were no major crashes in the stock market from 1929 to 1987. Now we are getting them every decade or so, see rise of Neo-Liberalism in the 1970's. There is a decent documentary on Netflix about this.

    5. Rise of the welfare state. Welfare state are generally a good idea in theory, the problem being they were designed in a different time (1930's or whatever). An ageing population and the resources to sustain them are putting pressure on a lot of governments, who wants to kick Grandma to the curb?In addition to being designed in a different time under different assumptions (people not living as long, better economic times) there is another major problem......

    6. Less tax. The right wing likes cutting taxes and then spending more money on things like the military. The USA government has been deficit spending most of the time since the 1960's. In other nations a lot of them cut taxes etc in the 1980's or whenever. The trickle down theory doesn't work though as the rich for example invest in finance/land over production. If you give poor people money via taxes they spend it which is why the governments often encourage consumer spending. However the consumer needs to earn money to spend it. See Kansas and Oklahoma for example of extreme tax cuts where schools are starting to lose 1 day a week. Conservative values of the good ol days (small and medium business/farmers, the middle class) have been replaced by corporate interests.

    7. Wages being more or less stagnant since the 70's. Some wages have gone up slightly but overall real wag growth has been stagnant when adjusted for inflation. And when wages have gone up it has often been eaten up by things like increased costs of housing (here) or things like healthcare in the USA. Wage growth did not keep up with the wage growth of the post war years.

    8. More people in the workforce. When labour is abundant wages go down. More women have entered the workforce since the 1960's (as a %), combined with lots of immigration in the USA and other nations.

    9. Globalisation. More people are in the global economy now and former high paid manufacturing jobs are cheaper to do overseas. This combines with things like corporations getting massive tax cuts which are used to shift manufacturing overseas vs building more factories like they did in the "good ol days". Its become a race to the bottom to find crappy regimes in Asia to allow unregulated manufacturing that doesn't have to worry about things like ethical labour conditions, pollution etc.

    10. Automation. A lot of jobs have been replaced by robots and machines.

    These are the broad outlines. TLDR version Corporations, globalisation, technology, less jobs, excess labour.
     
  16. Olleus

    Olleus Deity

    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2005
    Messages:
    6,478
    Location:
    England
    You've basically listed every reason why the economy grew in the last 40 years lol
     
  17. Zardnaar

    Zardnaar Deity

    Joined:
    Nov 16, 2003
    Messages:
    8,837
    Location:
    Dunedin, New Zealand
    Perhaps but the issues is wealth distribution, who gains from that economic growth. Weath disparity is now at 1905 levels IIRC. The Average wage in America if it kept the growth rate it used to have would be around 90-100k but the wages have kin of stagnated for most workers.

    Here I think the average wage is around $60 000 but most people do not get that, the top 30% IIRC so you are better off using the median wage which is a lot more realistic.

    So wages have not gone up that much (adjusted for inflation) but some things such as health costs or rent/property have outstripped wages.

    Every country has different problems here its low wages and property prices, healthcare seems to be an issue in the USA. My sisters house in the 90's cost 3 years wages, what she paid for that house these days won't even over the deposit in a lot of places which might have 14 years wages to buy a house. Even in the cheap parts of the country you are looking at 5-6 + years wages.

    So the end result is a lot of people are struggling, becoming homeless, rents are through the roof, houses cost to much and instead of spending 25% of your wages on rent its more like 50% sometimes more. People are living in garages and cramming 9 people into a 3 bedroom house in some areas, its posting the government millions in welfare as emergency accommodation they have been using motels.

    I saw my 1st homeless person last year, and we do not live in the expensive parts of the nation. This is in a nation with universal welfare BTW. We had a change of government in they handed out an extra $50 a week to students and rent went up $47.
     
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2018
  18. Lexicus

    Lexicus Deity

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2007
    Messages:
    23,469
    Location:
    Sovereign State of the Have-Nots
    No, it is more like feudal-Europe levels. There is no precedent in US history for the levels of inequality we are seeing today. The Gilded Age was actually far more egalitarian.
     
  19. Zardnaar

    Zardnaar Deity

    Joined:
    Nov 16, 2003
    Messages:
    8,837
    Location:
    Dunedin, New Zealand

    I think it was actually worse in the 19th century but it is heading back towards those levels.

    I would still live now than in the gilded age.
     
  20. Lexicus

    Lexicus Deity

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2007
    Messages:
    23,469
    Location:
    Sovereign State of the Have-Nots
    Nope, the 19th century was also more equal than today, even counting the slaves. Part of this is because there was less wealth overall to hoard then.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page