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Why is the western world declining?

Discussion in 'World History' started by Arent11, Nov 10, 2017.

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Why is the western world declining?

  1. Demography

    3 vote(s)
    7.9%
  2. General decadency, too much peace, too much welfare

    7 vote(s)
    18.4%
  3. Inner conflicts

    4 vote(s)
    10.5%
  4. There is a decline? Nope, I don't think so.

    17 vote(s)
    44.7%
  5. Other (Please specify in comments)

    7 vote(s)
    18.4%
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  1. Kyriakos

    Kyriakos Alien spiral maker

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    Well, compare how they are here, to how greeks aren't in Constantinople, cause they were kicked out illegally. In other words: not sure what you can expect, moreover when Turkey has continuously been hostile and periodically invading stuff or pogroming; i am sure things would be better if it wasn't for that, no?
    Anyway, i expect nothing to change, cause - really - nothing can change. In other words: anything which can change, does.
     
  2. r16

    r16 not deity

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    the Greeks are in Istanbul , only not in the numbers they used to be . Nothing that prevents them from returning apart from old age , having died in the interim or kids having settled into lives of their own .
     
  3. Kyriakos

    Kyriakos Alien spiral maker

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    +1 ruse :)
     
  4. r16

    r16 not deity

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    actually it was a good chance and stuff that anyone returning would be funded by the Party , had it happened in those days when the Party was all on how Turks are evil .
     
  5. Kyriakos

    Kyriakos Alien spiral maker

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    Well, tbh, the term "turk" was frowned upon by ottomans themselves, no?
    And not due to religious reason, but because it was seen as tied to nomads and steppe people.
     
  6. TheMeInTeam

    TheMeInTeam Top Logic

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    Decision rights/incentive/reward do not align.
     
  7. Tahuti

    Tahuti Writing Deity

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    Inner conflicts. The EU member states and the USA in particular are extremely arrogant towards non-Western nations. The EU itself has some abilities to see its role in perspective to say, India and China, as do Australia, Canada and Israel, though overall, the West is going to pay the price for its haughtiness, as every declining macro-civilisational entity does.

    Although it is possible, and indeed seems likely, that the Modern West (modern starting from 1600s onwards) will face a rather unique fate in that it is going to merge with the rest of the world, rather than being outpaced by it.
     
    caketastydelish, Olleus and Hrothbern like this.
  8. REDY

    REDY Duty Caller

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    The rise of china is not suprising. Chinese have hard working mentality, genetical intelligence and culture tradition. They are most populous country.
    Only its communism and arrogance has been keeping them down. In longerm globalisation its clear that they they are n1. But its still question how succesfully will they transit from cheap labor/no human rights economy.

    I dont think that other major non-western countries are doing better, they have worse crisis than west.
     
    Last edited: Dec 15, 2017
  9. Tahuti

    Tahuti Writing Deity

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    State-controlled capitalism is a far cry from communism. And China isn't particularly arrogant on the world stage, except towards smaller neighbours like Vietnam.
     
  10. REDY

    REDY Duty Caller

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    But this is crucial. I mean even Hitler/Stalin were respectful to countries which were not neighbours. Its quite to safe assume what do they think about us when think lowly about extraordinary Vietnam.

    Chinese call themselves to be central nation/the empire of the centre. I acknowledge that meaning is more tricky in formal chinese. But what it practically means is quite evident from their movies and their politics. From my experiences even Russia has virtue of humility in comparision with china.

    This does not mean that chinese were not first in many things.
     
    Last edited: Dec 16, 2017
  11. JohannaK

    JohannaK Careless Whisperer

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    If "genetical intelligence" means culturally hard-coded extreme academic excellence demand from parents, then yes.
     
  12. Tahuti

    Tahuti Writing Deity

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    That is true, though then again, exceptionalism is hardly unique to China. Aside from the Stalinist period, which promoted 'socialism in one country', the USSR was quite exceptionalist as well.
     
  13. Hrothbern

    Hrothbern Deity

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    Chinese are currently on the international stage very diplomatic
    respectful

    But if you look how China is handling pressure on books and articles to be published by the big western publishing houses, incl Oxford, trying to prevent being published anything that does not fit the glorious path forward....

    The teeth that can bite are not hidden all the time anymore
    true it is not is not yet arrogance
    but they do have the nerve to put pressure on this western pillar of freedom of book printing
     
  14. r16

    r16 not deity

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    pardon me for the general thread distraction , but ı was busy writing Star Wars stuff , kinda failed to notice in time . Take a couple of years back , when the future is bright and either Kurds or Sunni Arabs [of Syria or Iraq or both] might bring in oil wells . Oh my , everyone says Turkish Nationalism is always wrong , puts off people , cuts diplomatic options . And how good the Ottoman times were , when everybody was a brother . Oh-kay , whatever . Then a member of "Hülya Koçyiğit and just a few are not traitors" committee says the love for Ottomans will also have to end , sometime soon . It's not liked in Lebanon ... Oh-kay , why ? Because of future prospects , they have sold the State telecommunications company to the Hariri family , and they are always like "No, you can't do this. If you do, we can't justify our voters to wave Turkish flags as if they like ever love Turks." And because of that future prospects , the consurtium that now own the said telecommunications company has paid 1 units of money , has debts of 3 units of money and yet might have made profits and the like of 15 units of money over the years . Nobody notices , for future prospects . Until , you know , the son Hariri proves he is owned by the Saudis . And mind you the expert who shames all experts sits on the board , as the company "steals" copper cables and replaces them with fiberoptics ....
     
  15. Tahuti

    Tahuti Writing Deity

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    To be honest, this is hardly different from how commercial corporations influence universities and other institutions of higher learning to have their research stick to their confirmation biases. Pharmaceutical companies are hampering genuine progress in psychiatry (which after all means soul-healing) to push drugs. That's just one example of commercial interests trumping (oh hey!) academic interest.

    Self-proclaimed 'socialist states' like the PRC and the USSR are actually more like massive corporate conglomerates which operate in every economic sector in their locale and participate in global markets. And if it suits them, they will manipulate academic discourse.

    I'm honestly beginning to think Universities are unable to guard their independence any longer.
     
  16. Hrothbern

    Hrothbern Deity

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    yes
    we are going downhill
    Though there is still a difference between surpressing information on and pushing commercially convenient research.
    Surpressing information comes too close to surpressing freedom of opinion, especially if opinions are so vulnerable by fake info, that good info is a imo a mandatory cornerstone of freedom of opinion.

    I think western governments are either already too much influenced by for example big pharma, or just too lazy to formulate their own science policies.
    It is just crazy that whereas the bulk of the university cost is still paid by the tax payers, that small amount of money of private companies, that carrot, can steer universities.
     
  17. Tahuti

    Tahuti Writing Deity

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    Well, psychiatry wasn't too great a field before the big pharma boom, driven by (accidental!) inventions such as Clozapine. The term 'alienist' ought to attest to that. For all the faults in the theories of Jung and Freud, they are arguably the precious few who pushed psychiatry in the business of actually providing help towards resolving psychological issues rather than stigmatise people for having supposedly defective brains.

    The thing is, psychiatry has always been a field which very easily leads to political abuse, not unlike religion, which is also all-pervasive. One aspect of psychiatry which is genuinely good is psychotherapy, which interestingly is also a feature common to religion. Religions could be said to have a psychotherapeutic element.

    To connect this to the OP: Some developing countries such as Nigeria and India have better overall health outcomes in regards to psychosis than have the USA or the EU.

    The government only pays universities to ensure its accessibility to all students. Actual research is increasingly funded by commercial interests. Of course, politics has always played a role and that won't change that fast. Actually, never.
     
  18. Olleus

    Olleus Deity

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    Not really. The student side of things varies hugely by country: in the UK, students pay to attend university and pay more-or-less the real cost of their studies. They do get subsidised government-backed loans however.

    Research funding is more uniform, at least within the EU and I believe the US. Governments set up research councils (the one that funds me is the Engineering and Physical Sciences Research Council, DARPA I believe is one of the US equivalents) which is taxpayer funded and gives money to researchers (from PhD students to Professors). The money is allocated competitively with researchers submitting grant applications to them that are peer-reviewed; the whole process is rather convoluted and there are lots of different types of grants and agencies (at the country and EU level) that fund science. The admin side of the university is itself funded by them taking a cut (typically 40-60%) of the grants that researchers working at that institution win. I know personally that's how things are done in the natural sciences and I believe it's very similar in medicine and engineering, although the latter also receives some money directly from industry. For example, I've got a friend who's PhD in aerodynamic engineering was partially funded by the state and partly by Rolls-Royce.
     
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  19. Arakhor

    Arakhor Dremora Courtier Moderator

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    I doubt that UK universities charge the 'real' cost of tuition, rather the maximum that they can get away with.
     
  20. Olleus

    Olleus Deity

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    It's essentially both. That's why the maximum was set at that amount. I've looked at the finance reports of a handful of top-tier UK universities and they come close to breaking even on domestic undergraduate students. The reports are out there on the web if you care enough to look (I wouldn't recommend it, I only did because I used to share your opinion and got into a debate over it with several friends).
     
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