I would say the current Prehistoric needs to only be split into two... I'm not sure I'm reading it right but it LOOKS like some are proposing 3.
I'm not going to get too picky here except that we will need to restructure some tech placements for the purpose of spreading out unit upgrades so that we don't generally have more than one in a given era. I think we can do that if we split things as proposed but it's not going to be easy.
The other thing... if you're going to have era gateway techs, which I'm in favor of, then we need to include that in the new tech tree scheme. At EACH era, an x-grid layer will need its own spot. I'll need to adjust the cost charts a bit when this happens so that will change every tech and every building and unit cost but it would be good to get everything set properly once and done and then adjust as adjustments come up.
So... yeah, big project. For me to start my end of that (restructuring the cost charts), I need to see the full tech tree expressed by x/y on a spreadsheet.
I can also then let you know if I see some issues with it for the units that have been reviewed so far. I'll probably have some significant adjustment suggestions at that point to help with unit upgrade staging.
I think I like the second setup better, mainly because I'm concerned that the Classical and Medieval are too short to be split up.
One thing that we could do, though, is take your longer, 20-era scheme and program that in. Then if we decide not to use some of the eras, then we just don't have any techs from those given eras, and I don't think there would be any harm from having empty eras in the game. That will allow us to retain more flexibility later on.
In my scheme, the boundaries are not necessarily the same as in the original. My Neolithic includes some late Prehistoric and early Ancient. My Atomic includes some late Industrial and early Modern; my Information is some late Modern and early Transhuman; and my Transhuman Era is the late old TH plus early Galactic.
Don't be fooled by the "lithic" Neolithic is basically when agriculture comes so it would be at the beginning of our Ancient era. For sure we need to split the Prehistoric era into 2 eras and Paleolithic and Mesolithic fit fine for those roles.
The thing is since we will be adding eras and have to tweak the tech tree we might as well do it all. The thing is should we plan for something bigger than we have right now. So we have wiggle room later? Seems like some eras are all squished and others have room to spare. Should all eras have the same amount of columns such as 10 for each era? Or make them as big as needed?
Having massive wriggle room would be great for expanding each era more. it just will look like a very empty tech tree for some eras if we do this. But it would make some thing simple such as Paleolithic X1, Mesolithic X11, Neolithic X21 and so on.
I also don't know how wide the future eras are. If they are bigger than 10 columns.
Right now I have:
Information: 84-97 (will be changed to 86-97)
Nanotech: 98-107
Transhuman: 108-119
Galactic: 120-132
Cosmic: 133-142
Transcendent: 143-153
Future: 154
So, 10-13 columns apiece, which I think is a good length.
I think I like the second setup better, mainly because I'm concerned that the Classical and Medieval are too short to be split up.
One thing that we could do, though, is take your longer, 20-era scheme and program that in. Then if we decide not to use some of the eras, then we just don't have any techs from those given eras, and I don't think there would be any harm from having empty eras in the game. That will allow us to retain more flexibility later on.
In my scheme, the boundaries are not necessarily the same as in the original. My Neolithic includes some late Prehistoric and early Ancient. My Atomic includes some late Industrial and early Modern; my Information is some late Modern and early Transhuman; and my Transhuman Era is the late old TH plus early Galactic.
That's what I am thinking if we don't need the eras then we can always remove them. But it would be good to have them in case.
Yeah some leak over from other eras can work too. In general that's what I was going for.
I am also not sure about the Imperial Era name. In Toffer's tree he also has Age of Discovery. Perhaps a "Discovery Age" would be better for the later Renaissance tech tree. Right now the Renaissance is 11 columns. Starting with Gunpowder and ending right before Steam Power. Techs in the middle are like Flintlock, Scientific Method, Enlightenment, Mercantilism etc. Not sure where it should start. Age of Discovery is basically 1400 to 1700. While the Renaissance is 1300 to 1700. Both overlap and thus the Renaissance comes first since it was first. Or we could just leave the Renaissance alone too. So like ...
Paleolithic
Mesolithic
Neolithic
Ancient
Classical
Medieval
Renaissance
Steam
Industrial
Atomic
Information
Nanotech
Transhuman
Galactic
Cosmic
Transcendent
Future
And if each era had 10 columns (except future) we would have 161 columns.
Hmm. the 11 and 9 cancel each other out. Its that 12 that would go over and mess up the whole 10 per era. I mean overall I think we are good but too bad it goes over. also for the other eras ...
So really it looks like we do not have to really move anything around. Just add eras and re-era the techs. Since most eras already have. If the Ancient Era was left as is it would be 13. Alternative names could be ...
Paleolithic = Prehistoric
Mesolithic = Stone Age
Having no Neolithic when there is Paleolithic and Mesolithic seems wrong.
So like ...
Prehistoric
Stone*
Ancient
Classical
Medieval
Renaissance
Steam*
Industrial
Atomic**
Information*
Nanotech*
Transhuman
Galactic
Cosmic*
Transcendent*
Future
With the exception of "Modern" we actually keep the names of all previous eras.
* = New Era
** = Renamed Era
EDIT: And if i counted right it would be 148 columns total.
It would be NICE if we could enforce a particular amount of x layers per era but I doubt it's a realistic expectation that we can. If so, it looks like it may need to be 12 layers. I'd support that if we can manage to make it work. 12 would have a very fascinating cyclical underlying meaning to it. Just as important is to try to make the overall amount of techs per era roughly equivalent. How much do we want to 'force' things though? I dunno. It seems as appropriate to consider the eras by the human experience chapters they represent and forcing it too much may take away from that.
As for the clarification on the Neolithic... ok... I get it. Sorry for the confusion. It's the birth of civilization era.
12 would also be fine if you guys can move that many techs. If we want the whole "Gateway" teach at the beginning of each era then we will need at least 1 more space per era except for the Ancient and Classical eras. Also do we want a single tech for the Prehistoric? So basically with base 12 we would have ...
Stone = X10 to X12
Ancient = X19 to X24
Classical = X32 to X36
Medieval = X44 to X48
Renaissance = X51 to X60
Steam = X62 to X72
Industrial = X68 to X84
Atomic = X77 to X96 --- Space Mod Locations ---
Information = X86 to X108
Nanotech = X98 to X120
Transhuman = X108 to X132
Galactic = X120 to X144
Cosmic = X133 to X156
Transcendent = X143 to X168
Future = X154 to X180
However if Steam was not its own era then Industrial would be 15 wide and go over the 12 limit. But when split into Steam and Industrial then the Steam Era is only 6 columns while the Industrial Era is a more appropriate 9 columns wide.
Of couse like all the eras we could just add more. Since most eras are going to gain at least 1 more column even with the "Gateway" tech.
I recall StrategyOnly mentioning some quicker way to move all the techs over to new columns. But I do not remember how its done. Do you guys recall?
EDIT: Oops i forgot about the Ancient era ending up having 13. I suppose it could be moved over to the left a little to take up one spot in the Stone Age. So it would end up being like X23 instead of X24.
The Prehistoric would be split into Prehistoric and Stone Age. i will see if i can get up an altered spreadsheet.
EDIT: Ok click on my signature and then the Tech Tree x12 Tab. You can see each era by color. And approximately where the techs would go. Note the later eras don't have the right tech order since they would be different with the space mod.
EDIT2: Moved over stuff and added Gateway techs as well as numbered the amount of columns per era.
Looking over the tree. I am not sure if having the 12 per era is worth doing. Especially since they don't all fit perfectly. I recommend the following ...
1. We split Prehistoric Era in half into Prehistoric and Stone. Their locations don't change.
2. We split Industrial Era in half to Steam and Industrial. Their locations don't move.
3. Modern Era is changed to Atomic Era.
3. The Space Mod is used as a guide to line up the Information, Nanotech, Transhuman, Galactic, Cosmic and Transcendent Eras.
4. Information Era takes some late Modern and Early Transhuman Era techs.
5. Nanotech Era takes the middle Transhuman techs.
6. Transhuman takes the late Transhuman techs.
7. Galactic Era take the early Galactic techs.
8. Cosmic Era takes the middle Galactic techs.
9. Transendent Era takes the late Galactic techs.
10. Future Era stays the same and is moved to the back of the tree as needed.
In short the only tech moving is really at the Galactic era. There are some moving in the Transhuman but they mostly stay where they are. The Galactic Era on the other hand gets completely redone with lots of new techs from the Space mod. Most new techs will be empty. But that's nothing new for those techs.
Based on what i have seen not only will the empty Transhuman and Galactic Era techs fill up, but any new techs are getting filled thanks to that mod.
Don't want to be a pest, but since the subject of eras has come up and it looks like a shift is forthcoming I figure I might as well throw my hat into the ring:
(I might as well note in advance that my ideal has coincidentially been 12 columns per (sub)era for some time, and that the x placements are all tentative and weighted by some crucial technologies like Writing or Iron Working. I foresee almost all eras being greatly expanded in future, should one of these ways be the future for vanilla-C2C)
Spoiler:
Paleolithic (50,000/200,000 BC) (replaces the entirety of Prehistoric)
Neolithic (my own choice of colour for this era) (10,000 BC) (x19-27)
Ancient (3000 BC) (x28-45) (though I think a lot of the very early medieval techs should be shifted to mid-Classical/three quarters of the way into this combined era)
Postclassical (500 AD) (x46-50) (I think this era greatly needs expansion, for reasons others have stated. However, I'm not convinced splitting it along the lines (either wholly or in part) of Low/High/Late is the way to go about it for vanilla-C2C, considering how Eurocentric that would be)
Early Modern (1500 AD) (more or less as Renaissance is now, the eras start to become better defined at this point for reasons I think I discussed in my own thread)
Late Modern (1800 AD) (x62-sometime before 76? The techs are really mashed together towards the end, WWII tanks come almost immediately after Early Tanks)
Age of Diesel (1925 AD) (see above)
Atomic (1950 AD) (x77-86ish? Mashing isn't quite as severe as with the WWI-WWII periods, and what is currently Modern has currently taken up some of the space of the monster that is Transhuman)
Information (1990 AD) (x86ish-93?)
(I went with Near Future (2050 AD) (replacing x94-113), Far Future (2200 AD) (replacing Galactic) and The End (3000 AD) (replacing Future), but I'll admit I've given those eras less attention and thus am open to letting pepper2000 take over for those parts as far as vanilla-C2C is concerned.
(See above)
I'd also like to note here that while I considered them for my own plans in the past (and of course I'm not a team member and I realize many are approaching this from a gameplay rather than historical oriented viewpoint) I don't really think that Mesolithic and Chalcolithic/Copper Age qualify as eras. The Mesolithic began in the Middle East 10,000 years earlier than it did in Europe, and doesn't really seem to have possessed much in the way of interesting technologies (i.e. anything beyond more advanced tools, much like Lower and Middle Paleolithic). The Copper Age was even less universal than the Bronze, and seems to have largely existed solely in the Middle East c. 5000-3000 BC, and similarly lacks much to distinguish it from the Neolithic.
However, I think a stronger case can be made for splitting Middle and Upper Paleolithic if the start date is moved back to 200,000 BC or earlier, with the latter starting at 50,000 BC.
You might also want to take a leaf (or the whole thing, I'm not bothered) from this more thematic division of the eras, one I think Hydro will appreciate given he knows of Empire Earth:
Spoiler:
Paleolithic (50,000/200,000 BC) (replaces the entirety of Prehistoric)
Neolithic (10,000 BC) (x19-27)
Bronze (3000 BC) (x28-33)
Iron (1200 BC) (not sure)
Classical (500 BC) (not sure)
Late Antiquity (300 AD)/Low Middle Ages (500 AD) (the empty space at the end of Classical and the first 2 columns of Medieval, expanded of course)
Medieval (1000 AD) (not sure. Many parts of the tech tree would need to be greatly expanded if this listing was to work)
EarlyModern (1300/1350/1450/1500 AD) (x48=51-56)
Enlightenment (1600/1650/1700/1750 AD) (depending on when/where you place this, it could partially overlap with Industrial as well) (x56-61/68ish)
Same (instead of "Late Modern", "Industrial". Era could begin either 1800 or 1850, which would obviously impact Enlightenment as well)
Same
Same
Same
(See above)
(See above)
Also, just for fun (and following the "chart out the maximum and trim if desired from there), I'll lay out this monster:
One way of consolidating things could be to split Galactic into Type I, II and III civilizations on the Kardashev scale, though that doesn't help with the dates either if you want to keep a realistic pace. I'd vote for 2200-3000 AD for Type I, 10,000 AD for Type II and 100,000 AD for Type III myself.
Eh. You Neolthic could work but then it basically messes with the Ancient and Classical eras. I think we are better off just having Ancient Era represet the Neolthic and Chalcolithic ages. And then the Classical everything between the Iron Age until the Dark Ages. Plus really then we do not have to move anything or even re-era the techs for Ancient, Classical and Medieval Eras.
As for splitting the Prehistoric Era up, its been something people have been wanting. Calling Paleolithic and Mesolithic, Prehistoric and Stone keep their meaning a little more vague. And it accomplishes splitting the Ages up. Plus each era end up having around 10 techs per era this way. Some more some less. And those with less we can always fill in with more.
As for using Empire Earth as a guide, the fact is we will have tiny eras if we do that. Like eras being only like 3 to 6 columns. One problem we had was speeding through eras. If the eras were a bit bigger to begin with then maybe. also I don't want to add techs just to fill in space. If I am adding a tech it should add aspects we have not added before.
As for the mega eras you post. Maybe some day. But I think for now we should add what we need and expand later as things get more crowded. Some eras already have blank columns and we have not even filled those in. We don't want nearly empty eras or just really short ones. Also the more specific we get with eras the harder it is to place techs. Having some vague wiggle room is always helpful. Since say the Bronze Age appeared at different dates fro different civs.
Digital Age is fine with me. I don't care which one is used. Anyone else have an option on the name? However Electronics age i think may be too broad since there have been electronics in the Atomic Age.
I prefer Information age because that's what it's actually called. By the media at least, I guess. We are currently IN the Information age. So they say.
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