Why is this ModMod Not in C2C Already?

As for splitting the Prehistoric Era up, its been something people have been wanting. Calling Paleolithic and Mesolithic, Prehistoric and Stone keep their meaning a little more vague. And it accomplishes splitting the Ages up. Plus each era end up having around 10 techs per era this way. Some more some less. And those with less we can always fill in with more.

Why do you think this is all necessary for the Mod? Especially the 10 techs/era aspect? Have you made a count of the current techs per era? Or are you taking off on a whimsical ride with this?

Current Number of tech per Era With Out Peppers Modmod in C2C now. These numbers are now off by a few techs per era but are still close enough for a general overview.
ERAs / Tech # / Timeframe in game years
Preh Era/ 100 (~103)/ 44,000
Ancient Era/ 90/ 4,000
Classical Era/ 60/ 2,600
Medieval Era/ 44/ 700
Ren Era /58 / 400
Industrial Era/ 91 / 220
Modern Era/ 92 /100
Tranhuman Era /190 / 980 (does not contain Peppers' additions)
Galactic Era /54 / 2,000 (does not contain Pepper's)
Future Era/ 1 /(Fudge factor era)

Now this is before you moved some techs just within the last week Hydro.

All Game Speed (GS) Modifiers (Research rate, unit build time, plot improvement time, Gold modifier, Inflation, and several more) impacting player, AI, and barbarian etc., are ALL dependent upon these break downs. And are adjusted specifically for each GS (from Normal at 1000 turns thru Eternity at 8145 turns) to give a decent rate.

Quite frankly in the Mods current state Transhuman has a serious bloat problem at 190 techs. Will pepper's work increase or decrease the amount of techs for the TH Era? From what I'm reading it should increase it along with Modern and Galactic. And that is okay if it's streamlined.

Now from the pragmatic point of view comes this question. How do we sustain player play for the normal player to make it to the Galactic Era?

The Mods focus for the last few years has been all warfare oriented. Builder play is getting harder and harder to do. And it will take a good heaping helping of Builder to get the player to these later eras. Most C2C games are Over by the end of the Med Era if played on the slower GS. Only on the 3 fastest can you play to Ren and beyond IF the Mod does not CTD from too many units, buildings, etc that the Civ IV 32 bit limited engine can handle. Will 10 Empires make it to the Modern Era and beyond? They can and have but for the most part every player that has posted a game that has made to Modern or beyond is a lopsided affair.

So to play these later Eras who is going to Fix the mod so that you can do a Ren Era Start and forgo the earlier Eras so you can play the later Eras with out serious game problems such as CTDs?

Do you kill all the work that has went into making the Preh Era what it is today and destroy StrategyOnly's vision for the Preh era? Now SO would like for the Mod to be playable thru the Galactic as much as anyone else. But the Mod is front heavy in it's current state. Because that is were all the work has been for the past 4-5 years. C2C has some serious design issues and crossroads right now.

And what about all this work that Pepper has done? Yes I think it should be in the mod. I want that understood up front. This much effort should not be wasted. It should go into the mod. But without some Major changes to how and when you can start playing C2C only a few will get to it IF they start in the Preh Era that has defined this Mod. Can you all make a Modern Era start playable?

I have brought up several different areas of concern in this wall of text. And I think you all should consider each point carefully.

Then again maybe I shouldn't have brought it up at all. :dunno:

JosEPh
 
Why do you think this is all necessary for the Mod? Especially the 10 techs/era aspect? Have you made a count of the current techs per era? Or are you taking off on a whimsical ride with this?

Sorry not "techs" I ment "Columms" Each Era has around 10 columns! Oh geeze sorry for saying the wrong thing. :hammer2:

So since every column has 10 rows and then 10 columns then there is room if you filled them to the max of 100 techs per era (10 columns x 10 rows).
 
So like this ...

  1. Prehistoric = 9 Columns
  2. Stone = 9 Columns
  3. Ancient = 13 Columns
  4. Classical = 10 Columns
  5. Medieval = 9 Columns
  6. Renaissance = 11 Columns
  7. Steam = 6 Columns
  8. Industrial = 9 Columns
  9. Atomic = 9 Columns
  10. Information = 11 Columns
  11. Nanotech = 9 Columns
  12. Transhuman = 11 Columns
  13. Galactic = 12 Columns
  14. Cosmic = 9 Columns
  15. Transcendent = 10 Columns
  16. Future = 1 Column
As you can see they are mostly 10 columns Steam has only 6 and Ancient has 13. But its more or less even. So 148 columns in total. If it were perfect where every era had 10 columns (except the last era) we should have come out with 151 columns ((15 x 10) +1). I think that is like really close.
 
Do you kill all the work that has went into making the Preh Era what it is today and destroy StrategyOnly's vision for the Preh era? Now SO would like for the Mod to be playable thru the Galactic as much as anyone else. But the Mod is front heavy in it's current state. Because that is were all the work has been for the past 4-5 years. C2C has some serious design issues and crossroads right now.

First of all the Prehistoric Era was redone by me a few times already. The first time was when we first made C2C together. And Secondly I am not changing anything but the Era for the 2nd half of the prehistoric era. So X1 to X9 stay Prehistoric Era. And X10 to X18 are now Stone Era. That's all. Likewise the first Part of the Industrial Era will be called Steam Era and be X62 to X67. While the Industrial Era will only cover X68 to X76. The other stuff is more complex but has already been planed out by pepper.
 
Now from the pragmatic point of view comes this question. How do we sustain player play for the normal player to make it to the Galactic Era?

I believe we use to have a thread about this very topic. in short there is not one good answer to the question, but a lot of little answers that help push the game to longevity. Many of the answers here have either already been added or no longer apply. However I think we can nudge things in the right direction. The Space mod has lots of consolidated buildings and obsolete techs for buildings. If the player can keep playing I think we can get a game that can keep going. I know many time I have said "just one more turn and I will stop" And then I take like 50 more turns. That's the real key to getting to the later eras. To get the player to not realize they made it to there if they just keep coming back to play.

Like you said from the combat side there are lots now thanks to Thunderbrd's awesome settings. And like them or hate them the crime, flammability, education, pollution and tourism all add a new layer to the builder game. More like a Sim City style game than civ4. Then the early game with all the DH's hunting brings a lot of fun.

Once you can explore across the ocean it opens up more exploration. And when you can get to space that adds even more exploration. That's if you use the special maps for that. And hopefully some day we will have multi-maps do we don't have to use those types of maps anymore.

I agree that we have lots for room for improvement in additions and balance. But I also see that the Space Mod brings a lot of things to do on these special space maps.
 
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... That's all. ...
Thus throwing out all the balancing work done! Adding a new era in the middle or at the front makes all the balance era stuff now wrong for the eras that follow it. All the Classic Era stuff will now apply to he Ancient Era for example.

Adding to the end is not so much of a problem.
 
Ok then if its going to cause such a huge disruption of balance lets just stick to adding the later eras. So no more splitting up the prehistoric and industrial eras. So like ...

  1. Prehistoric
  2. Ancient
  3. Classical
  4. Medieval
  5. Renaissance
  6. Industrial
  7. Atomic
  8. Information
  9. Nanotech
  10. Transhuman
  11. Galactic
  12. Cosmic
  13. Transcendent
  14. Future
The Space mod is already going to move a bunch of stuff around in the galactic era and lots of tweaking in the Transhuman and a little in the Modern Era. So things getting unbalanced is unavoidable. But its less work than splitting up the prehistoric and industrial eras too.

Can we all agree on these new eras and renaming Modern to "Atomic"?
 
Ok then if its going to cause such a huge disruption of balance lets just stick to adding the later eras. So no more splitting up the prehistoric and industrial eras. So like ...

  1. Prehistoric
  2. Ancient
  3. Classical
  4. Medieval
  5. Renaissance
  6. Industrial
  7. Atomic
  8. Information
  9. Nanotech
  10. Transhuman
  11. Galactic
  12. Cosmic
  13. Transcendent
  14. Future
The Space mod is already going to move a bunch of stuff around in the galactic era and lots of tweaking in the Transhuman and a little in the Modern Era. So things getting unbalanced is unavoidable. But its less work than splitting up the prehistoric and industrial eras too.

Can we all agree on these new eras and renaming Modern to "Atomic"?
I'm most comfortable with this solution tbh. For so many reasons. It's the least disrupting by far. But it'll still need some adjusting as I do want to see us insert that extra column for a gateway tech into each era (some already have it and we have a number of empty columns in the medieval so not too much shifting should be necessary to achieve this.)

We also do need to expand the Medieval and there are techs in the Classical that should be Medieval I believe.

This approach would let some sleeping dogs lie and would open the fewest cans of worms and I'm sure we all feel that this mod is so large that when we open cans of worms, we really need to be more and more conservative about how much we're wanting to tackle when we do. I'm honestly glad Joe and DH have spoken up here because it was starting to scare me a bit. I'm not so sure that there's any solid need to break up the prehistoric. But I do want to see us move to a 200k start date.
 
Thus throwing out all the balancing work done!

Exactly. And one of the points in my post above.

Being that pepper's work was coming in at the end Eras I have no problem with it at all being added nor the Modern/TH/Galactic changes. As I stated TH is a monster Era with 190 techs and getting them balanced would be much much less work than doing everything over from scratch. So your Era list now is not a problem for me. And I can still keep tweaking the balance as I get more Feedback from the Game Speed thread.

:ninja: by T-brd's post above. :wavey:

JosEPh
 
Joseph, I'm glad you made that post. Truthfully, I don't know how to answer those questions, though I have spent a lot of time thinking about them.

The reality is, as we all know, that a game on a large map and a slow speed with many civs simply cannot go beyond the Renaissance, let alone colonizing the stars. As Hydro alluded to, in order to be playable at all, it simply becomes a different kind of game in the future, more about exploration and building than warfare and diplomacy. I enjoy that a lot, and there are others who aren't interested.

Eventually, we might have a Modern (Information) Era start that will allow the space race to get going early on. That's not a very good answer because I haven't the first idea how to go about making late starts viable.

I'll admit that I did not fully understand the implications of adding new eras. I thought that they were just cosmetic, affecting things like music and city appearance. Given the difficulty, I would now just as soon forgot about the Paleolithic and Neolithic Eras and keep the Prehistoric as it is. By the time we get to Atomic, it's not so disruptive because gameplay is not well-balanced at that point anyway. I'd cast my vote for Hydro's recent 14 era system.
 
Exactly. And one of the points in my post above.

Being that pepper's work was coming in at the end Eras I have no problem with it at all being added nor the Modern/TH/Galactic changes. As I stated TH is a monster Era with 190 techs and getting them balanced would be much much less work than doing everything over from scratch. So your Era list now is not a problem for me. And I can still keep tweaking the balance as I get more Feedback from the Game Speed thread.

:ninja: by T-brd's post above. :wavey:

JosEPh
How bad do you think it would screw you up if we were to adjust the start date to 200k?
 
That should not be too much of a problem. The Preh era Years/turn increment would obviously get much much bigger. And/or the start of Ancient could be reset to 10,000BC instead of it's current 6,000 target.

So Preh would be from 200K to 10K BC. By the way why 200K? What is so significant about that particular date? Why not just 80,000BC for example? Or even keeping it at 50K?

JosEPh
 
Wonderful! I am glad we are making some progress here. I look forward to seeing the new eras added. And just so people know in a side by side comparison the Transhuman era is mostly the same with some addational techs and a few moved. Its the Galactic Era that is completely redone for his later eras. Thankfully the Galactic Era techs were mostly empty. So less can of worms.
 
Wonderful! I am glad we are making some progress here. I look forward to seeing the new eras added. And just so people know in a side by side comparison the Transhuman era is mostly the same with some addational techs and a few moved. Its the Galactic Era that is completely redone for his later eras. Thankfully the Galactic Era techs were mostly empty. So less can of worms.

Yes, Exactly so. And changing the iTurnIncrements for Galactic to fit the added Techs is not a terribly hard thing to do for each Game Speed. But changing All Eras would've reguired a complete do over.
 
By the way why 200K? What is so significant about that particular date? Why not just 80,000BC for example? Or even keeping it at 50K?
A number of us have grown more and more enamored of this start date because more and more evidence is showing that to be about the date of the emergence of what we call homo sapien. Before that it could really be said to be another species and there's a bit of a missing link so this is a juncture where some biblical telling may be injected potentially. According to the growing pool of archaeological evidence anyhow.

It also fits with a date that is just at or before the emergence of some of the human behaviors that are exhibited by our earliest techs. Fire and crude language probably predated by a long ways, but Nomadic Lifestyle, more COMPLEX language, the development of ideas such as right and wrong, (Deception and Cooperation) and such took on a new stage of awareness at this point.

There's just... a lot of good subtle causes to call this date (or roundabouts) the birth of the Human species.

Praetyre is probably our biggest early history buff and could answer this question better than I can about various minutae.

And just so people know in a side by side comparison the Transhuman era is mostly the same with some additional techs and a few moved. Its the Galactic Era that is completely redone for his later eras.
I'm hoping we can split the Transhuman a bit... it's too long as it is, clearly two ages worth as it's really about double the average number of columns.
 
There's just... a lot of good subtle causes to call this date (or roundabouts) the birth of the Human species.

This is just a game you know.......:lol::crazyeye:
 
This is just a game you know.......:lol::crazyeye:
Yes and no. There's an educational factor at work here too. And some small attempts to show a simulation model of a simplistic nature.

It will also be beneficial for future projects to include Earth shaking and terrain evolving events during a phase of Nomadic existence.
 
I'm hoping we can split the Transhuman a bit... it's too long as it is, clearly two ages worth as it's really about double the average number of columns.

It is. But most of the techs do not move from their current locations. See below for comparison.

Space Mod Techs
http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h202/Hydromancerx/C2C MP/spacetech_transhuman_01_zpsjbdrywwp.jpg
http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h202/Hydromancerx/C2C MP/spacetech_transhuman_02_zpswazaetu1.jpg
http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h202/Hydromancerx/C2C MP/spacetech_transhuman_03_zpsnfescaun.jpg
http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h202/Hydromancerx/C2C MP/spacetech_transhuman_04_zpsawkmmm2x.jpg
http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h202/Hydromancerx/C2C MP/spacetech_transhuman_05_zpsxokpapvr.jpg
http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h202/Hydromancerx/C2C MP/spacetech_transhuman_06_zpsdss6x9py.jpg
http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h202/Hydromancerx/C2C MP/spacetech_transhuman_07_zps1xrltcir.jpg
http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h202/Hydromancerx/C2C MP/spacetech_transhuman_08_zpsqjjtmnxu.jpg
http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h202/Hydromancerx/C2C MP/spacetech_transhuman_09_zpsnmed6tfb.jpg
http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h202/Hydromancerx/C2C MP/spacetech_transhuman_10_zpslcf4arwx.jpg
http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h202/Hydromancerx/C2C MP/spacetech_transhuman_11_zpsnufqfksa.jpg
http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h202/Hydromancerx/C2C MP/spacetech_transhuman_12_zpstsa2v8dh.jpg
http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h202/Hydromancerx/C2C MP/spacetech_transhuman_13_zpsijmii8uj.jpg
http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h202/Hydromancerx/C2C MP/spacetech_transhuman_14_zps9lfsalgg.jpg
http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h202/Hydromancerx/C2C MP/spacetech_transhuman_15_zpsqhnjjeso.jpg
http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h202/Hydromancerx/C2C MP/spacetech_transhuman_16_zpslass2dss.jpg
http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h202/Hydromancerx/C2C MP/spacetech_transhuman_17_zpsazsvzcnj.jpg
http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h202/Hydromancerx/C2C MP/spacetech_transhuman_18_zpsrh3abzkw.jpg
http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h202/Hydromancerx/C2C MP/spacetech_transhuman_19_zpsvpedxd7h.jpg
http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h202/Hydromancerx/C2C MP/spacetech_transhuman_20_zpsk7ezwnno.jpg
http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h202/Hydromancerx/C2C MP/spacetech_transhuman_21_zpsoorg1voo.jpg

Current C2C Techs
http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h202/Hydromancerx/C2C MP/c2ctech_transhuman_01_zpsbtropszj.jpg
http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h202/Hydromancerx/C2C MP/c2ctech_transhuman_02_zpsz1kyordc.jpg
http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h202/Hydromancerx/C2C MP/c2ctech_transhuman_03_zpssycnlcn4.jpg
http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h202/Hydromancerx/C2C MP/c2ctech_transhuman_04_zpsfjupyw6q.jpg
http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h202/Hydromancerx/C2C MP/c2ctech_transhuman_05_zpsae3dj5dy.jpg
http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h202/Hydromancerx/C2C MP/c2ctech_transhuman_06_zpsogdrovpy.jpg
http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h202/Hydromancerx/C2C MP/c2ctech_transhuman_07_zpsmbo5gdqc.jpg
http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h202/Hydromancerx/C2C MP/c2ctech_transhuman_08_zpsdocoycmw.jpg
http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h202/Hydromancerx/C2C MP/c2ctech_transhuman_09_zpskmzr1par.jpg
http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h202/Hydromancerx/C2C MP/c2ctech_transhuman_10_zpsr0ad1mqh.jpg
http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h202/Hydromancerx/C2C MP/c2ctech_transhuman_11_zpsxtor9bjw.jpg
http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h202/Hydromancerx/C2C MP/c2ctech_transhuman_12_zpsrjcgvkct.jpg
http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h202/Hydromancerx/C2C MP/c2ctech_transhuman_13_zpseyyhc22k.jpg
http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h202/Hydromancerx/C2C MP/c2ctech_transhuman_14_zpsir7j9gku.jpg
http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h202/Hydromancerx/C2C MP/c2ctech_transhuman_15_zpslbt5vghc.jpg
 
It is. But most of the techs do not move from their current locations.

And really why should they be moved? All you need is a consensus for the desired splitting column.

Yes and no. There's an educational factor at work here too.
Meh, maybe, maybe not. Eye of the beholder and whether the "educational factor" is really educational or propaganda. It is still just a game.
 
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