Why is this ModMod Not in C2C Already?

[Hydromancerx]

I like that too. This makes a tech like Medieval Lifestyle have a rational feel to the progression. I can see why the music tech upgrade would be a big part of what leads to a medieval mentality.

Ok so if Geocenterism requires Astrology. And Paved Roads requires City Planning. And Musical Notation is added as a requirement then we would have ...

Medieval Lifestyle
Req Techs: Paved Roads AND Geocenterism AND Musical Notation

Since all other techs would be redundant.

However if your set on having Paved Roads in the Medieval Era. Right now It requires Machinery AND Mosaic Working. Geocenterism already requires Machinery. So that is covered. However you would loose Mosaic Working tech. Which is not as important. However without City Planning this would mean someone could go into Medieval Lifestyle without knowing City Planning at all. So then I request it be ...

Medieval Lifestyle
Req Techs: Sanitation AND Geocenterism AND Musical Notation

Paved Roads
Req Techs: Mosaic Working AND Medieval Lifestyle

This would then cover everything needed. Machinery, City Planning, even all the other techs.

What do you think?

EDIT: Updated the online tech tree for if paved roads was added the the Medieval Era.

 

[Thunderbrd]

I think you convinced me to leave paved roads at the end of the classical thanks to the Romans having achieved it as one of their pinnacle achievements.

 

[Hydromancerx]

Ok I will move it back on the tech tree.

EDIT: If no one objects I think I will ...

1. Move Weather Lore and Geocentrism back a column.
2. Add Astrology as requirement.for Geocentrism
3. Add City Planning as requirement.for Paved Roads

This should not impact the tree too much yet.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Sounds good. I'm getting a better feel for this era split now.

 

[Hydromancerx]

Ok added to the SVN plus I added Calendar requirement to Weather Lore tech. Seems like that should have been that way in the beginning.

 

[Faustmouse]

Well that's the thing are Lunar techs really needed for Planetary Colonization? I think they eventually will be needed down the line but it might not be a must for say Colonizing Mars.

My answer to this is no. I think you can very well aim for mars directly. However, gameplay wise it gave a nicer progression if you start with near space, then moon, then other planets.... I can see a free tech tree as well, were you can decide were to focus on first. These techs should use the "researches X% faster with tech xy" tag, as knowledge in colonizing one certainly helps understand colonizing the other. We always have techs were you have to ask yourself "do I really need tech X to get Tech Y?" and often the answer is a clear no. But since we don't want deadend techs, they require each other nevertheless.

Then we also want to take into account that our "planet" might not have a semi-habitable planet like mars in it's neighborhood. If there was only venus, then earth, then a huge gap with asteroids and then jupiter far out, I'm pretty sure we'd aim for the moon long before other planets.

I'm happy with both ways (free choice of what to colonize first vs moon first), so whatever you and Pepper feel is better for gameplay. I still think that the lunar techs should spread out a little bit more, at least that you have to research 5 or so techs in between of them (not meaning that they have to be 5 X columns away from each other.)

 

[pepper2000]

Regarding the Lunar techs, the reasoning makes sense. I'm leaning toward Faustmouse's suggestion putting Lunar Colonization before AES. There are some big advantages to colonizing the moon first. Having a firm surface to work with and easily accessible building material helps a lot. I also like the idea of spreading them out and also not having such a big gap from Lunar Bases (though Lunar Bases could arguable be moved forward a bit). On the other hand, since they both come after Asteroid Mining, the case could be made that resources (via captured asteroids) are actually more abundant in cislunar space than on any lunar or planetary surface, and not having gravity to worry about makes construction easier. In reality, there is probably more flexibility to the tech tree, past and future, than we program into the game.

 

[Faustmouse]

Pepper made a good point I actually forgot about. Once you established a lunar base, you could make fuel there. This would allow for much more efficient transfers from earth to other planets, which is another reason to colonize the moon first. Having a "save" testground for new techs on a lunar base is another, as you could evacuate it more easily.

It pretty much boils down to what you define as Advanced Enviromental Systems. You'd need a darn good Life Support System if you want to have a permanently manned space station in earth orbit as well. This is a huge step up from the Apollo Life Support Systems. You can also have a large life support system on your bases, but having them on ships might be a disadvantage. Getting to the moon takes only a few days, while to the mars it is a few months. So one could argue that the better life support systems from AES is required more for the shuttles to get to the new colony then for the colony as well.

 

[Hydromancerx]

Ok i did the following ...

- Moved Vassalage and Smithing to the Medieval Era.
- Added Medieval Lifestyle, Executions, Windmills, Rat Catching and Plague Medicine techs.
- Moved around a bunch of Medieval era techs.
- Tweaked a bunch of Medieval tech requirements.
- Moved Windmill building to Windmills tech.
- Moved Windmill improvement to Windmills tech.
- Moved Gallows building to Executions tech.

Check out the new Medieval Era. No units or buildings or even techs have had their cost redone since this is all a WIP.

I also have an idea for the gateway tech to the Renaissance. X50 techs can be moved back. And then Armored Cavalry and Chivalry can each be moved back 1 column. This leaves eduction needing to move back too. I think i can do some more adjusting to push stuff back. There was more than enough room to compact the techs.

Also TB take a look where i moved the Plague Medicine tech. It is in X46 now. So now there is a big gap between it and Anatomy. Should we have a new unit now?

EDIT: Also I kinda want to use the Agricultural Tools icon for the new Windmills tech icon. And get rid of the one I have, But I cannot find a good icon with a farmer with a Scythe. Since that would be the iconic tool of that era.

I also have no quotes, pedia or descriptions for the new techs yet. So any help with those would be appreciated. I just put "TBD" in their spots.

 

[Hydromancerx]

Ok I figured out where the other half of the Medieval Era techs should go. See the online tech tree fro their new location. They fit perfectly. Not much wiggle room anymore but at least the Renaissance techs do not have to be moved in order to add a gateway tech.

EDIT: Ok I commuted those changes to the later half of the tech tree on the SVN. Let me know what you think. I think it turned out really nice. Except for Martial Arts which could be in a better spot. But it was not moved.

 

[JosEPh_II]

So Classic and Med Eras now have a set number of techs, good. And Thanks for considering the Musical Notation tech for the use with the gateway tech.

I've just exported the latest commit and will ad it to my Play version of C2C. I have a game that is just in the Right spot to see how this all changes the paths. I was just about to research Charters but still needed to go back and get some of the mid Class techs for Engineering and Civil service.

Plus if the Classical and Med Era now have a set number of techs I can adjust the Game Speeds for these as well.

 

[Hydromancerx]

Well they might not be completely finished yet. I know TB wanted to add a Torture tech to the Medieval era. And I was thinking of adding a separate Watermill tech for the Classical Era. Also the Thermae tech to classical might be worth adding. Its up to you if you want to adjust the game speed. Just know new techs might be added still.

 

[JosEPh_II]

As long as it is only one or 2 techs not a big deal. Now adding 5-20 techs or taking away that many does make changes.

 

[pepper2000]

Great work. I like the way the Medieval Era is shaping up.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Also TB take a look where i moved the Plague Medicine tech. It is in X46 now. So now there is a big gap between it and Anatomy. Should we have a new unit now?

No... definitely no new healer units should be added at this point. If there are any new ones to come it would be at the end of the tech tree. Actually being a little earlier helps it fit a little better as a parallel to the LE unit upgrade for the era so all the better.

Can you help me think of what to name and where to place a new Law Enforcement tech somewhere around this point? Or do you think it should simply become a part of Executions?

Also, where to place Torture should be up to you as well.


EDIT: here's an idea... Trials (or Ordeals)

By the time of Henry II, the system of law in England had been improved because Henry sent out his own judges from London to listen to cases throughout all England’s counties. Each accused person had to go through an ordeal. There were three ordeals:


Ordeal by fire. An accused person held a red hot iron bar and walked three paces. His hand was then bandaged and left for three days. If the wound was getting better after three days, you were innocent. If the wound had clearly not got any better, you were guilty.


Ordeal by water. An accused person was tied up and thrown into water. If you floated you were guilty of the crime you were accused of. Ordeal by combat. This was used by noblemen who had been accused of something. They would fight in combat with their accuser. Whoever won was right. Whoever lost was usually dead at the end of the fight.


In 1215, the Pope decided that priests in England must not help with ordeals. As a result, ordeals were replaced by trials by juries. To start with, these were not popular with the people as they felt that their neighbours might have a grudge against them and use the opportunity of a trial to get their revenge. After 1275, a law was introduced which allowed people to be tortured if they refused to go to trial before a jury.

 

[Hydromancerx]

No... definitely no new healer units should be added at this point. If there are any new ones to come it would be at the end of the tech tree. Actually being a little earlier helps it fit a little better as a parallel to the LE unit upgrade for the era so all the better.

Well at least a new building should be in order. Should any disease come at this tech?

Can you help me think of what to name and where to place a new Law Enforcement tech somewhere around this point? Or do you think it should simply become a part of Executions?

Yes that would be a good spot.

Also, where to place Torture should be up to you as well.

I will have to take a closer look later. Probably the Dungeon building should be moved here and then we can add some specific torture buildings hat require the dungeon.

EDIT: here's an idea... Trials (or Ordeals)

Is this a new tech? Or a new type of building?

Great work. I like the way the Medieval Era is shaping up.

Thanks! What do the rest of you guys think?

 

[Thunderbrd]

Well at least a new building should be in order. Should any disease come at this tech?

The Doctor's Office is the prereq for the Doctor... so it would be something else perhaps. I would imagine the diseases should come in before this point, making this a reaction to them. The plague itself was used to dramatic effect as a biological weapon by Ghengis Khan.

Anatomy stood on its own before the Doctor and the Doctor's Office I think. If it can't, then perhaps Anatomy needs some kind of building of its own now.

Is this a new tech? Or a new type of building?

I was thinking for a new LE tech.

 

[Hydromancerx]

Ok some changes to the Medieval Era

1. Have Charters tech require Paper tech instead of Philosophy AND Democracy AND Feudalism. All those are covered with just Paper tech.
2. Move Charters, Parliaments and Banking forward 1 column so they are ot in the same row as Paper.
3. Add Torture tech. Which would be ...

Torture (NEW)
Req Tech: Executions AND Invention AND Usury
Location: X47 Y5
Building: Dungeon (was previously at Engineering) and add new Torture buildings.

4. Jurisprudence tech requirements are changed to Political Philosophy AND Torture.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Looking very closely, we should add:

Yeomanry
Req: Vassalage and Engineering
x43/Y13
Prereq for Longbows and Arrow Slit Buildings
Required BY Heraldry and Usury

Warrants and Decrees
Req: Torture and Charters and Crucible Steel
x48/Y7
Move all LE upgrades in Charters to this tech.
Add a LE building upgrade to Town Watch - Guard Posts
This will historically allow there to be a significant amount of time for the criminal upgrade for the era to plague the medieval cities before the LE upgrade becomes available.

 

[Hydromancerx]

Ok I added the stuff i said in the other post to the SVN.