Why is this ModMod Not in C2C Already?

[JosEPh_II]

Atomic: 1920-1990, 73 techs. Note that if this era really starts around 1920, then some of the late Industrial techs should be in the Atomic Era. These figures assume Atomic begins at x74.

If Atomic/Modern would start at x75 column then I assume Quantum Physics is the gateway tech under this proposed timeline. This means that Industrial Era has lost 20 tech to the New Modern/Atomic Era. So Industrial will need to be added to my list of redos.

If Information Era has 83 techs, then with the current tech tree that would make column x85 (currently Modern Era) the Start column for Info Era. I have yet to figure out what column it will end in yet. And the next column for the Start of Nanotech Era. Still working this out.

All Game Speeds currently have 10 iTurnIncrements sections that correspond to each Current era. The number of Tech in each era is the base for the time range that the corresponding iTurnIncrement section will have. With the New Era the number of iTurnIncrements will breakdown from 10 sections to 14 sections, to meet expected time ranges for each era. This will in turn impact the research and build rates for 4 of the current eras (Ind, Mod, Th, Galac) to 8 to handle the 4 new additions. As they all now have new # of tech/era for their base.

As soon as possible I need the exact X columns and the Starting tech in that x column for all these 8 "new" Era. Reason, already with the current Commit to EraInfos.xml the research, gold, unit build time, create, inflation, plot improvement, and other modifiers are no longer scaled but are all over the place (as was to be expected by me) because I did not expect pepper to be looking at all these modifiers as they progressed thru each era. Hence his cut and paste to add new Eras came from different Eras as a template. So I have one early New era with a 150% modifier in a given area while the next one up the line only has a 65% modifier, and so forth and so on as these new eras progress. A roller coaster type scaling of the modifiers. All fixable of course so no need for pepper or anyone else to panic. As this is just the work I will need to do anyway. It will also allow me to tweak some of these with the collected data from the Game Speed thread from player reports.

Also in the EraInfos.xml (EDIT) TechInfos someone will need to change the (this is just an example of the ERA Tag) <Era>ERA_MODERN</Era> for each tech that has moved to a different era. Prime example the 20 techs pulled from Ind Era into the new Modern/Atomic. And then on down the line for each new Era.

So....Lots of info needed to do my part. Perhaps some of this will be more transparent as the new techs are brought in.

JosEPh

 

[Hydromancerx]

Is this sufficient to close the beeline to Feudalism? I hope so. I don't have the tech tree in front of me so I ask.

Yes it would stop the beeline to Feudalism.

 

[Hydromancerx]

Commercial Spaceflight: Leads to Lunar Colonization instead of Advanced Environmental Systems.

Well right now its ...

Lunar Colonization
Req Tech: Commercial Spaceflight AND Lunar Bases AND Metamaterals AND Advanced Environmental Systems

while you want ...

Lunar Colonization
Req Tech: Commercial Spaceflight AND Lunar Bases AND Metamaterals

But Advanced Environmental Systems tech represents the advanced life support you would need to off planet colonization. I recommend it stay a requirement.

Lunar Colonization: Should require Commercial Spaceflight instead of Advanced Environmental Systems.
Leads to Advanced Environmental Systems ONLY

See above for why I disagree.

Advanced Environmental Systems: Should require Lunar Colonization instead of Commercial Spaceflight
Leads to Lunar Tourism, Lunar Manufacturing and Planetary Colonization.

And this change would not be needed if Lunar Colonization required AES.

Lunar Manufacturing: Should require Advanced Environmental Systems instead of Lunar Colonization.
Should also require Automated Robots, too.

Well if AES was already required for Lunar Colonization then that is redundant. The Automated Robotics on the other hand would be a new suggestion. Right now its ...

Lunar Manufacturing
Req Tech: Lunar Colonization AND Powered Exoskeleton

Automated Robotics requires Powered Exoskeleton way back there. It also sits on the same column as Lunar Manufacturing. I am not sure if that will mess things up. It covers a lot of techs if you do use Automated Robotics. It basically is the difference between an automated factory or humans using exoskeletons to move cargo. I am not sure if Automated Robotics is overkill.

Lunar Tourism: Should require Advanced Environmental Systems instead of Lunar Colonization.
Should require Megacorporations, too.

Actually I think we should have lunar tourism require Lunar Manufacturing. That would combine all previous techs into one. As for Megacorporations I think that is a good idea.

Mega Corporations: Remove Lunar Tourism as Prereq.
Should lead to Lunar Tourism

Yeah that was the issue to make sure it did not lead to each other. However did anything get lost by removing this? ITs hard to tell going back. Most look like lunar or general space related techs. of which probably don't matter for megacorporations.

Automated Robots: Should lead to Lunar Manufacturing, too.

Like I said above I could support this if we want to go this route instead of Powered Exoskeleton tech.

Planetary Colonization: Should require Advanced Environmental Systems instead of Lunar Colonization

I am not the fence about this. On the one hand all the tech going along with Lunar Colonization might be needed for Planetary Colonization. Then again in real life we might colonize Mars before the moon.

 

[Thunderbrd]

@Hydro, have you considered the alternative xgrid era breaks I suggested at least?

 

[Hydromancerx]

@Hydro, have you considered the alternative xgrid era breaks I suggested at least?

You mean for the gateway techs or is this different? Could you explain more of what you mean?

 

[Thunderbrd]

I mean I suggested, in the comments you felt were disrupting your form, where I felt we should be breaking the eras. I don't think we're breaking them all in the right places, especially not medieval. This consideration obviously dramatically adjusts the way you would adjust prerequisites for the gateways. This was the importance of putting the notes on the actual lines I was indicating. Part of it came down to trying to even out the count of x columns a bit more smoothly and with a little less variation in length. But a lot of it was more for an evaluation of the feel of the era. This is obviously a pretty big matter for Joe as well and I push on it again because I feel it was overlooked and is a step to consider before the gateway prereqs and pretty much everything joseph is needing to accomplish.

So my first suggestion is to move Classical Lifestyle to x31 and shift the existing x31 to x32 and make everything in that column a classical tech instead. Nothing in there really strikes me as NEEDING to be Ancient and a lot of it sits well with the opening of an era, particularly Monarchy. This gives us another column for Classical, which is good because the last two columns of classical are medieval techs.

I mean.. they really ARE medieval techs! Vassalage, in particular, is about as medieval as a tech can be... perhaps THE invention that defined the Medieval from the Classical in history. Same with smithing. Can anything be more medieval than that tech? Even Machinery, a tech 3 columns ahead of the current introduction to Medieval, is more a medieval tech than a late roman era one. And if we move the start of the Medieval to a new column between x39 and x40 as I strongly believe we should, then that would result in a very short Classical age. But having moved classical up one it gives us roughly balanced age lengths between ancient, classical, and medieval. I'm not saying medieval doesn't still need some more techs but part of its length issue is that classical has stolen techs from it that classical shouldn't have

At this point, somewhere around x49 should then be where we move to Rennaissance, education being the immediate best next tech to follow its opening. Making it harder to beeline for education would be very positive for the mod. But I do feel that Chivalry and Tournaments should be in Medieval, and shifted forward a bit, which is probably going to force other techs forward some.

We can maintain these smoothly distanced breaks by splitting the Industrial age opening between 59 and 60. Replaceable Parts pretty much defines the age introduction, whether it be a gateway tech or not was not the important point. Looking at things navally, the strongest of the wood ships are quite a step more powerful and may be better defined as the beginning of the industrial rather than the end of the renaissance.

Giving it a look, I can see how we have placed the end of WWII at 76X77 so yeah, that' should be the Atomic Age introduction. I'd put fission BEFORE that so as to allow the gateway tech to be just after it if Fission isn't going to BE the gateway tech.

Past that... I figure it's pretty much Pepper's to determine and I think he took note of my observations. And take all this as just suggestion. But it's the last few columns of Classical being so 'classically medieval' by definition that I feel is a little grating - and in play it has the effect of messing with upgrade power shifts that are split between the two eras and should be left for being the earnings of the medieval to help keep from beelining through so many upgrade pathways so rapidly.

 

[Toffer90]

I don't really see the importance in enforcing all eras to contain the same amount of columns or techs...
If we force that too much the tech tree will start to feel "not right", if you know what I mean.
My opinion is "let the eras be organic".

 

[JosEPh_II]

I have to agree with T-brd on the late classical techs really being medieval. And the need to move them into that era. Feudalism must have more techs in front of it a much deeper path. The sudden introduction of Longbow from the tech leader while the rest of the pack is still in middle Classical is a big hump

As for the other parts yeah i can see them too. So basically I will need to redo all eras But Preh and Ancient. Unless someone sees that some late Ancient should be Classical.

There are also modules for religions that have only 1 tech in them that really (if not already done) should be in the main. The few players that protested and wanted the religions to be Modular just hampers the whole process. Perhaps it's time to tell them No. No more Modular religions (not meaning to step on DH's toes here but..). Same for the Punk Techs hidden in modules and hard to take account for. The more accurate a tech count I get the better I can balance the whole.

Sidenote: And as a whole from what I've seen lately from SO's and several other's game that have made it into Modern Era the Gold/turn is still too high (imagine me saying that 2 years ago hydro!) I should've left my 1st set of modifier's in for the later eras but was concerned there would be too much hue and cry about suddenly not having enough gold.

Tornado sirens are going off so will comment tomorrow. Under a Tornado warning for the next several hours and several have been spotted in the area.

 

[pepper2000]

Keep safe, Joseph.

 

[Thunderbrd]

I don't really see the importance in enforcing all eras to contain the same amount of columns or techs...
If we force that too much the tech tree will start to feel "not right", if you know what I mean.
My opinion is "let the eras be organic".

It wasn't at all about forcing it... It was about seeing if it SHOULD be adjusted, as much due to the techs feeling like they should be in a given era or another as applying SOME small amount of value to trying to get the eras to have roughly equivalent lengths... and I think based on the suggestions made, they should be.

@Joe: We're agreeing! It can happen! Awesome

 

[Faustmouse]

@ Hydro:

I can see your point on AES. My main goal was to cut the beelining from Lunar Colonization to Tourism and Manufacturing, which could be researched right after each other, even if you beelined Lunar Colonization in the first place! You were missing a lot of older techs then, but going this route you lose quite a bit of the experience of having a slow growing colony. So my proposed changes were based on a gameplay way, not necessary realism. Although you could argue that you need life support for an orbital station as well, and the stuff you learn with a moon base helps you to develope better life support systems, that is needed if you want to colonize other planets (as you have less often the chance to launch something there.)

And yeah, we could end up colonizing mars first, but it could've been the other way round just as well.

 

[Hydromancerx]

@pepper2000

Can you chnage back the name of the Modern age from Atomic back to Modern , so we open less can's of worms? As recommended by Joe.

 

[Hydromancerx]

So my first suggestion is to move Classical Lifestyle to x31 and shift the existing x31 to x32 and make everything in that column a classical tech instead. Nothing in there really strikes me as NEEDING to be Ancient and a lot of it sits well with the opening of an era, particularly Monarchy. This gives us another column for Classical, which is good because the last two columns of classical are medieval techs.

Ugh. That's a lot of messing around. Basically split is there because Iron Working is there and that defines the difference between Ancient and Classical eras. I will give it a look but man that's going to be a big mess to sort through. As for Monarchy, that's not a medieval tech. Sure there were monarchs in the medieval era but there were kings in ancient and classical times too. Ex. King David, Valley of the Kings, etc.

I mean.. they really ARE medieval techs! Vassalage, in particular, is about as medieval as a tech can be... perhaps THE invention that defined the Medieval from the Classical in history. Same with smithing. Can anything be more medieval than that tech? Even Machinery, a tech 3 columns ahead of the current introduction to Medieval, is more a medieval tech than a late roman era one. And if we move the start of the Medieval to a new column between x39 and x40 as I strongly believe we should, then that would result in a very short Classical age. But having moved classical up one it gives us roughly balanced age lengths between ancient, classical, and medieval. I'm not saying medieval doesn't still need some more techs but part of its length issue is that classical has stolen techs from it that classical shouldn't have

Vassalage could go in either Classical or Medieval. Its also very close to the edge that it probbly could pass over to the other era. But Monarchy is way too early to be moved. Smithing could go either way. But Machinery was defiantly a Classical Era tech. Perhaps if we split it up into two techs. Such as "Ancient Machinery" and "Medieval Machinery". At the very least we should be splitting up the Windmills and Watermills into their own techs. Also why are Cogs at Machinery tech? Seems like they should be at some other tech. Maybe a new one.

At this point, somewhere around x49 should then be where we move to Rennaissance, education being the immediate best next tech to follow its opening. Making it harder to beeline for education would be very positive for the mod. But I do feel that Chivalry and Tournaments should be in Medieval, and shifted forward a bit, which is probably going to force other techs forward some.

Well like I said I would like to work on adding new techs to the Medieval Era. Like I said above perhaps some building and/or units can be moved into those new techs too. I also have the Rat Catching and Executions techs i want to add there.

 

[Hydromancerx]

Ok so some Medieval tech ideas ...

Executions (NEW)
Req Tech: Civil Service AND Drama
Location: X45 Y9
Buildings: Gallows get moved here.

Parliaments
Req Tech: Charters AND Executions

Windmills (NEW)
Req Tech: Engineering AND Weather Lore
Location: X45
Building: Windmill get moved here
Improvements: Windmills gets moved here

Agricultural Tools
Req Tech: Feudalism AND Floristry AND Windmills
Location: X46 Y17 (all the other techs in that column get moved up 1 row)

Rat Catching (NEW)
Req Tech: Sanitation AND Alchemy
Location: X47 Y7
Buildings: Rat Catcher (NEW)

Plague Medicine (NEW)
Req Tech: Guilds AND Theology AND Rat Catching
Location: X49 Y13
Units: Plague Doctor (NEW) or Move Doctor here along with the Doctor's Office

Anatomy
Req Tech: Education AND Plague Medicine

 

[Hydromancerx]

@ Hydro:

I can see your point on AES. My main goal was to cut the beelining from Lunar Colonization to Tourism and Manufacturing, which could be researched right after each other, even if you beelined Lunar Colonization in the first place! You were missing a lot of older techs then, but going this route you lose quite a bit of the experience of having a slow growing colony. So my proposed changes were based on a gameplay way, not necessary realism. Although you could argue that you need life support for an orbital station as well, and the stuff you learn with a moon base helps you to develope better life support systems, that is needed if you want to colonize other planets (as you have less often the chance to launch something there.)

And yeah, we could end up colonizing mars first, but it could've been the other way round just as well.

That's why they were "Advanced" Environmental systems. These are like a step up from the ISS. it is nicer working stuff more like sci-fi space ships have.

 

[Faustmouse]

Then the problem with beelining all lunar techs still remains.

 

[Toffer90]

It wasn't at all about forcing it... It was about seeing if it SHOULD be adjusted, as much due to the techs feeling like they should be in a given era or another as applying SOME small amount of value to trying to get the eras to have roughly equivalent lengths... and I think based on the suggestions made, they should be.

@Joe: We're agreeing! It can happen! Awesome

My post wasn't directly directed at any particular post or person.
It was merely an opinion that I felt needed to be expressed due to me not seeing any good arguments for the general notion that all eras should be the same length.

If it is obvious, both from a gameplay and a historical perspective, to introduce a new tech in a particular spot or move a tech to a particualr spot, then it should be done.
Gameplay reasons usually trumps the historical reasons imo. Especially when the historical reason is a bit diffuse and therefore has wiggle room.

 

[JosEPh_II]

I wish there was a way to sort the TechInfos file by the x and y grid values. Man that file is a pain to search thru. Major job I can see to move all techs into Eras there. Someone started on the Preh Era at one time but then quit. Wonder if that was DH?

OT--And No tornadoes spotted in my vicinity last night. About 20 miles north may have been one though. 2 squall lines passed thru and now we're back this morning to more seasonal temps. Too easy to get used to April weather in early march though. Trees are budding too early.

Gameplay reasons usually trumps the historical reasons imo. Especially when the historical reason is a bit diffuse and therefore has wiggle room.

Totally agree with this. Game play over historical every time.

JosEPh

 

[Toffer90]

I wish there was a way to sort the TechInfos file by the x and y grid values. Man that file is a pain to search thru. Major job I can see to move all techs into Eras there. Someone started on the Preh Era at one time but then quit. Wonder if that was DH?

It was me, thought about continuing that work yesterday actually.

 

[JosEPh_II]

I'm curious about something, when you commit xml cleanup what is that exactly? Are you rearranging how an xml file is listed/arranged inside? Removing unused tags? ?