Why is this ModMod Not in C2C Already?

[tmv]

In Civ context, happiness means that citizens can and will work, because the absence of happiness means they aren't working - for whatever reason. If you could directly set worktime conditions (is that a proper way to call it, I mean something like 9 to 5), harsher conditions in earlier ages would increase the work citizens could do, but in "modern times" you would get a massive strike, or perhaps a revolution.

I think in many cases the happiness effect should depend on the education level (see above). Uneducated people accept many things that the better educated won't tolerate. Most revolutions are led by well educated people, even if most members of a revolution are not. If we take fiction as evidence, you need to look no further than "1984", where surveillance, torture and other means of coercion were pretty much restricted to the few educated who remain, the uneducated simply follow the orders.

Perhaps that should be one of the main choices: Uneducated people let you walk all over them, but they are not the best workers, they don't invent things or create culture. Educated people do the research, create culture, do pretty much any job better, but they have certain ideas about many things and are unhappy if their expectations are not met.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Interesting discussion. I think of "Happiness", in the Civ context, as referring to the compliance of citizens. They are happy if they work and don't cause problems. It has nothing to do with their subjective well-being which, as it is, is of no concern for me as the megalomaniacal ruler. Things like drugs, amusement parks, and cell phones make citizens happy not because they improve the public's subjective well-being, but because it keeps them from causing problems.

According to Yuval Harari, modern nations has adopted things like pensions and health benefits, not for the benefit of the citizens, but because a healthy and financially secure population is needed to have a strong military and strong economy. If and when we reach the point where human labor is superfluous in the economy, this creates a situation where much of the population is useless and there will be no appetite to provide the unemployable masses with public support, because doing so does not help the military or the economy.

I would want torture buildings to have some negative effects because I find it morally repugnant, and while there are negative effects for the people and negative effects from the perspective of abstractions such as human rights, what are the negative effects from the standpoint of the ruler?

Eventually, one reaches Humanism, Liberalism, and other techs in the tree that would cause the population to develop a concept of human rights and turn torture buildings into a liability.

Maybe rather than obsoleting, that's how they should phase out. I mean, there already is some unhappiness and unhealth from them (representations of 'public dissatisfaction with the government' and 'added mortality rate') even from the beginning, and in a lot of ways, it's asking just how much are you able to absorb in these for benefit.

However, I would love the idea that certain techs should add more and more unhappiness as the tech tree marches on. To do that properly, I'd need to work on the 'destroy building' AI evaluations better and we'd really need to give the player a button rather than an obscure set of hotkeys to access destroying a building.

Since both of those aren't happening anytime soon, perhaps it would just be better to obsolete them fairly quickly. At that stage of the game, I'm finding there's numerous potential reasons to start becoming unhappy so these could really stretch your ability to balance the beneifts as is.

Perhaps that should be one of the main choices: Uneducated people let you walk all over them, but they are not the best workers, they don't invent things or create culture. Educated people do the research, create culture, do pretty much any job better, but they have certain ideas about many things and are unhappy if their expectations are not met.

I'm not sure how you are suggesting to implement that.

Same sentiment here as well and is why I Never use Slavery in any of my games. Don't care if it's the Best thing for Production in the game, it crosses The line that I won't. Same for the World View stuff about Cannibalism. Crosses The Line.

I'm building up to having an alignment system where leaders are judged by their actions throughout the game. It would play into diplomacy between leaders and would also interact with developing leaders... good leaders may gain the benefits of earning extra positive traits while evil ones may earn more negative traits. Some buildings, civics choices, unit trainings, unit missions, in some conditions declarations of war, spy missions, adopting worldviews etc, would add to your 'bad karma' or sometimes your 'good karma' (but usually this is what builds up slowly as long as you don't screw it up with lots of evil decisions.) At defined points on the karmic scale, you're either designated as good or evil. A good can declare war on an evil without penalty, for example, but cannot declare war on a good without suffering a karmic loss. And this would play into the AI decisionmaking as well. Some leaders would be geared towards being darker than others.

So it helps to have numerous ways to allow a leader to villainize themselves. And eventually, a player should be given some benefit for showing restraint.

 

[Shoobs]

Maybe rather than obsoleting, that's how they should phase out. I mean, there already is some unhappiness and unhealth from them (representations of 'public dissatisfaction with the government' and 'added mortality rate') even from the beginning, and in a lot of ways, it's asking just how much are you able to absorb in these for benefit.

However, I would love the idea that certain techs should add more and more unhappiness as the tech tree marches on. To do that properly, I'd need to work on the 'destroy building' AI evaluations better and we'd really need to give the player a button rather than an obscure set of hotkeys to access destroying a building.

Since both of those aren't happening anytime soon, perhaps it would just be better to obsolete them fairly quickly. At that stage of the game, I'm finding there's numerous potential reasons to start becoming unhappy so these could really stretch your ability to balance the beneifts as is.


I'm not sure how you are suggesting to implement that.


I'm building up to having an alignment system where leaders are judged by their actions throughout the game. It would play into diplomacy between leaders and would also interact with developing leaders... good leaders may gain the benefits of earning extra positive traits while evil ones may earn more negative traits. Some buildings, civics choices, unit trainings, unit missions, in some conditions declarations of war, spy missions, adopting worldviews etc, would add to your 'bad karma' or sometimes your 'good karma' (but usually this is what builds up slowly as long as you don't screw it up with lots of evil decisions.) At defined points on the karmic scale, you're either designated as good or evil. A good can declare war on an evil without penalty, for example, but cannot declare war on a good without suffering a karmic loss. And this would play into the AI decisionmaking as well. Some leaders would be geared towards being darker than others.

So it helps to have numerous ways to allow a leader to villainize themselves. And eventually, a player should be given some benefit for showing restraint.

I'm all for the proper villainization and evolution of our nations through roleplay. I too cannot stand slavery, both on the meta and on the real life morality standpoint. The AI governors LOVE to spam large cities with LARGE numbers of slaves, way too many imo. Though I haven't used it in years, I just remember the sheer numbers of slaves and forcing me to use more and more LE and Healers to even try to keep up with it.

 

[Thunderbrd]

The AI governors LOVE to spam large cities with LARGE numbers of slaves, way too many imo. Though I haven't used it in years, I just remember the sheer numbers of slaves and forcing me to use more and more LE and Healers to even try to keep up with it.

Quite a bit of work has been done to improve on this. It's much more reasonable now.


As a side note: I tend to feel we're pretty much all enslaved in the modern age, by the fact that we all agree to this ludicrous notion that it should cost money to simply live. What is slavery but another means to leverage a human being to commit to labor? We have more advanced means today, but we're not much more free than any slave in history ever has been.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

According to Yuval Harari, modern nations has adopted things like pensions and health benefits, not for the benefit of the citizens, but because a healthy and financially secure population is needed to have a strong military and strong economy. If and when we reach the point where human labor is superfluous in the economy, this creates a situation where much of the population is useless and there will be no appetite to provide the unemployable masses with public support, because doing so does not help the military or the economy.

Except not providing support for the useless masses in the form of "bread and circuses" as it used to be called, will destroy the economy and cause you to need all your military in your cities to control you bored and starving population. A concept explored in the recent movie "Virtual Revolution" where only 10% of the population were employable.

 

[Shoobs]

Quite a bit of work has been done to improve on this. It's much more reasonable now.


As a side note: I tend to feel we're pretty much all enslaved in the modern age, by the fact that we all agree to this ludicrous notion that it should cost money to simply live. What is slavery but another means to leverage a human being to commit to labor? We have more advanced means today, but we're not much more free than any slave in history ever has been.

On the first note, I tend to use AI governors in my cities. They -usually- do a better job of managing the cities than I do and I do not want to spend exorbitant amounts of time changing plots or specialists.


On the latter... yes, time is a universal currency and we have made money become entirely dependent on money/time/effort/luck. Opportunity costs are horrendous. Even kids should learn how to deal with this currency and sadly most of them do not ( whether its through parents not understanding themselves or a lack of ability to teach or absence from the child's life so they and the child can live but the child does not understand due to the absence ).

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

With slaves, mostly only the benefits have been coded with a few malus. There is more I want to do on the malus line now that I started to make some buildings unavailable due to Slavery. The only problem with that is I am not sure the AI "understands" that the removing slavery will open all those buildings and how to do so.

 

[Shoobs]

With slaves, mostly only the benefits have been coded with a few malus. There is more I want to do on the malus line now that I started to make some buildings unavailable due to Slavery. The only problem with that is I am not sure the AI "understands" that the removing slavery will open all those buildings and how to do so.

IMO, AI ability should trump the malus, if only for them to remain competitive.

 

[Thunderbrd]

With slaves, mostly only the benefits have been coded with a few malus. There is more I want to do on the malus line now that I started to make some buildings unavailable due to Slavery. The only problem with that is I am not sure the AI "understands" that the removing slavery will open all those buildings and how to do so.

That's a good question but it could be resolved so that they would recognize the issue. However, they may already. It's surprising how much depth Koshling's methods took on there. I'd ask him first before trying to play a guessing game.

 

[Hydromancerx]

I think we are off on another tangent again in this thread.

Back on topic.

@pepper2000

Now that the eras are in are you going to start converting over say the existing techs to the new Digital Era? Or add say Renewable Energy and/or Megacities tech since those are some early on new additions?

Do you require assistance in converting techs over to their new eras?

 

[JosEPh_II]

OK, great. First I will have to get organized a bit myself. I have python scripts that generate all of the buildings and techs, and the other things were done by hand. In about a week I will be on vacation and will have very limited Internet access, so I will try to get some material before them.

@Hydro,
pepper is on vacation. Limited access. His post was dated March 1.

 

[Hydromancerx]

Oops! Well I guess i can get some of the easy stuff done ...

Converted all per-existing Cosmic and Transcendent techs to their new eras.

I will have to take on the Information and Nano eras later since they have a lot more per-existing techs than the Cosmic and Transcendent Eras did.

 

[JosEPh_II]

@pepper2000

I have been looking closer at your tech tree and man, soo good! I am not sure if i agree with your eras, but I am sure sooner or later we will be splitting up the eras more anyways. Plus we can always discuss that in the tech tree topic. In short its the techs that are important. The eras are less important.

- Paleolithic
- Neolithic
- Ancient
- Classical
- Medieval
- Renaissance
- Industrial
- Atomic
- Information
- Nanotech
- Transhuman
- Galactic
- Cosmic
- Transcendent
- Future

Whatever objections I had for splitting the Preh Era up I rescind. Split it to your desired Eras. Will Tribalism be the gateway tech for Neolithic?

 

[Hydromancerx]

I kinda like it as it is now. Plus, wedging in a gateway tech in the middle is hard since most techs have no more wiggle room.

 

[JosEPh_II]

Whaaaat eeeevvvvveerrrrrrrrrrr.......................

 

[Hydromancerx]

Ok so all techs and bonuses from the Space mod should be in the core now.

Things like new terrains, terrain features and improvements are beyond my skills.

I would start adding buildings, wonders and projects but I know some of them depend upon new custom terrain. So I cannot do those yet.

And Civics depend on some buildings. So I cannot do those either.

Also I would rather have someone more skilled at modding units do the units.

And who knows what other stuff pepper has that I just have not looked closer to find.

 

[Faustmouse]

Wow very cool Hydro!

 

[pepper2000]

Sorry I missed some of the posts here.

I agree that we should hold off on buildings for the moment. I have a new batch of buildings I am working on anyway. Once they are ready, I can do a better job sorting which buildings belong on which terrains. I have a couple of lunar buildings that can be added, as they go with Faustmouse's material fairly well. I think almost all the Martian stuff can be added all right. And of course much of the Earth material should be able to be added.

But first, I'll do my part on the tech tree.

I've heard (and experienced) conflicting things here; I'm not sure if we can add new terrains without breaking saved games. That will be a delicate operation.

 

[Faustmouse]

I have a couple of lunar buildings that can be added, as they go with Faustmouse's material fairly well.

Don't worry about that! I achieved my goal; I made a proof on concept for extra terrestial colonies. If you need / want to change anything I did, feel free to do so (as long as you keep it somewhat realistic )

 

[Hydromancerx]

Well i like the way you separated out the Mars and other Space buildings. Perhaps we should have a separate file in the cor for those and even move out the existing mars and space buildings to a separate mars and space building files in the core. I know there are already a separation between normal buildings and special buildings.