Why is time special?

[Birdjaguar]

We're in sort of a chicken or egg debate. If I understand what youre saying, things change, and thats what Time is, snapshots of different states. I dont necessarily dissagree with that, except that to me, it seems like Time needs to exist for their to be change in the physical universe. The reason that we all grow old is that linear time exists. Linear time doesnt exist because we grow old, IMO.

I agree on the nature of the question. Is time the cause or an effect? Is change the cause or an effect.

Question 1: Could time exist in an completely unchanging existence?

 

[Bozo Erectus]

I agree on the nature of the question. Is time the cause or an effect? Is change the cause or an effect.

Question 1: Could time exist in an completely unchanging existence?

In other words, if nothing changed, how could it be shown that linear time was present? My response to that would be that anywhere where linear time is present, change will inevitably occur. Which is what leads me back to the question that blew my mind originally: If Space needs Time, what does Time require in order to exist?

 

[Ansar]

I think of time as a movie that is being filmed across the whole world. But that filiming machine cannot be edited and it never stops recording.

 

[Birdjaguar]

In other words, if nothing changed, how could it be shown that linear time was present? My response to that would be that anywhere where linear time is present, change will inevitably occur. Which is what leads me back to the question that blew my mind originally: If Space needs Time, what does Time require in order to exist?

Simple, change.

In regards to the bolded section, this is true. In answer to your first question (italics), I do't think you could show the existence of linear time. I would suggest that it cannot exist in such a state.

When the very first change happened, time and space leapt into existence.

 

[Birdjaguar]

Question 2: Say a series of events happen and you get a dozen or so instances of change and then all of a sudden all of those events and the context of those events disappear and the record of those events go away. Did the events happen?

 

[Bozo Erectus]

Question 2: Say a series of events happen and you get a dozen or so instances of change and then all of a sudden all of those events and the context of those events disappear and the record of those events go away. Did the events happen?

Hmm...What is information? Thats the question, right? The answer will always be god, but that feels like cheating. Hmmm...Im trying to resist associating Time with God.

 

[Bozo Erectus]

Question 2: Say a series of events happen and you get a dozen or so instances of change and then all of a sudden all of those events and the context of those events disappear and the record of those events go away. Did the events happen?

I keep coming back to Information. What is information? Its knowledge of change. What is change? A byproduct of Time.

 

[Birdjaguar]

Your post prompted me to try an work through links between change and consciousness and time. I'm still thinking this through so it may have some holes.

I keep coming back to Information. What is information? Its knowledge of change.

Hmm... interesting. Information is data of some sort, ranging from words in books to scents in the air that register as molecules on receptors. Awareness of new data brings "knowledge" of change. Data in myriad forms is processed by/through awareness and become knowledge. Time is the duration of the processing of data by awareness or consciousness.

Let me very loosely define "awareness" so that it includes things like molecules "noticing" the proximity of appropriate receptors and atoms "noticing" other nearby atoms they "need" to complete a stable bond.

Two molecules are near one another. If at some point they get close enough, then one or both will "detect" new data (a change). This "awareness" of the change processes the data into knowledge that "connecting" is correct and the two molecules bond. Time is the measure of the interval over which these changes take place. Time does not cause the change. Since no change happens in isolation in the universe, reversing one change does not restore the universe to its previous state (only one tiny event) so the arrow only moves in one direction.

Comments welcome.

 

[punkbass2000]

Question 2: Say a series of events happen and you get a dozen or so instances of change and then all of a sudden all of those events and the context of those events disappear and the record of those events go away. Did the events happen?

Well, what constitutes "happening"? What does it mean to say something "really happened"? And if it did, can it truly be captured and expressed?

 

[Birdjaguar]

Well, what constitutes "happening"? What does it mean to say something "really happened"? And if it did, can it truly be captured and expressed?

Question 2 was in fact a too cleverly disguised reference to a thread that came and went very quickly. This thread on time seemed an appropriate place for the comment. pm me if you want more details.

 

[warpus]

If there are quantum fluctuations, then there is change. Quantum state 1 becomes quantum state 2. Perhaps our yardstick is not up to the task of measuring such evetns? Now if those two states exists simultaneously for the photon, then the fluctuation does not really exist, but a single state that is neither 1 or 2 does. If it is a question of probabilities, then I would say that we do not yet have the tools to measure accurately enough to separate the different states.

I admit that you have a good point!!

I looked into it further and couldn't find evidence either way, just random comments.. got any links to support either position?

 

[Birdjaguar]

I admit that you have a good point!!

I looked into it further and couldn't find evidence either way, just random comments.. got any links to support either position?

Thank you.

The only link I have is one I discovered today that talks about measuring nano time. It is somewhat related and interesting, but doesn't directly address the issues we've talked about.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2006/05/060518180234.htm

I cannot provide you any supporting links for either "side" of the issue of whether time is a cause or an effect. My ideas on this (and most of my serious posts) stem from my religious beliefs and the little I know about science and the way the world works. I try to do my homework on stuff, but am quite happy to be corrected when I post "bad science".

Now is my version of time the truth? I wish I could delare it was, but I cannot. What I can say is that it fits very nicely with everything else I believe and it does not appear to contradict what we do know about the universe. Time as a dimensioin does not "feel" right to me; it is too human a construct without any physical basis.

 

[Marla_Singer]

Actually, I think I have found the answer to that question, I haven't read the whole thread so other people have certainly answered that yet, but I'm still writing it.

Time is nothing else than our intellectual ordination of a succession of movements. As many of those movements are cyclical (successions of day and night, successions of seasons, ...), it've very easy to intellectualize it. Time indeed doesn't exist, it's simply a construction of our mind.

EDIT : Alright, I'm a bit slow but I've understood the trick. If time is a construction of our mind, then how to define movements if it's not according to time. Okay. Well... sorry.

 

[Bill3000]

You're all wrong.

Time is special because it's a timelike dimenion in special/general relativity. It would still exist if there was no change, just like a spacial dimension would still exist if there was nothing in that dimension.

 

[Birdjaguar]

Actually, I think I have found the answer to that question, I haven't read the whole thread so other people have certainly answered that yet, but I'm still writing it.

Time is nothing else than our intellectual ordination of a succession of movements. As many of those movements are cyclical (successions of day and night, successions of seasons, ...), it've very easy to intellectualize it. Time indeed doesn't exist, it's simply a construction of our mind.

EDIT : Alright, I'm a bit slow but I've understood the trick. If time is a construction of our mind, then how to define movements if it's not according to time. Okay. Well... sorry.

No Marla, you were right on without the edit.

 

[Birdjaguar]

You're all wrong.

Time is special because it's a timelike dimenion in special/general relativity. It would still exist if there was no change, just like a spacial dimension would still exist if there was nothing in that dimension.

What makes it a dimension beyond convenience?

 

[betazed]

Time is special because it's a timelike dimenion in special/general relativity.

Well, that is like saying time is special because in (almost any) metric it has a minus sign. Which makes sense but still does not really explain why it is special to the lay person.

Moreover, time itself need not be the timelike dimension . Space can be the timelike dimension. For example, within a black hole the radial dimension is the time-like dimension (which is why everything must fall towards the singularity).

So nothing really special about being timelike...

 

[Ayatollah So]

Moreover, time itself need not be the timelike dimension . Space can be the timelike dimension.

Even more impressive, IMHO, is that what is "time" in my reference frame could be mostly "space" in yours, and vice-versa. If this doesn't make time non-special, it at least seems to water down that "specialness" a lot.

 

[Souron]

Another thing that is unique about time, besides it's arrow, is that nothing can go faster than light. In spacial terms, it's as if an object cannot change it's position in space, beyond a 45 degree shift(comperable to c) into the time demention.