Why make some civs Neutral when their clearly intended religion drives them to evil?

[Cuteunit]

(and why is evil so powerful in FFH in general?)

Please think back a moment to things you have read on this board. What is it you always hear about when people discuss strategy?

You never hear "rush Orders from Heaven" or "Next get Empyrean"

No, the buzz is always Ashen Veil, Octopus Overlords, Sacrifice the Weak.


Why? Why, based purely on the buzz, are the Good not appealing?

 

[Roghar]

Because Sacrifice the Weak and Slavery are such powerful civics, I suppose

It fits with the fantasy setting really - Evil is more powerful but teamwork pulls the good guys through

 

[MagisterCultuum]

Of course, slavery is no longer a religion specific civic; anyone who isn't Good can use it. I really don't hear that much "buzz" about OO anymore.

So which neutral civs have "clearly intended religions" that drive them Evil? While some civs may have certain synergies with certain religions, the only neutral civs I'd say have an "intended religion are the Ljosalfar (FoL), the Khazad (RoK) and the Lanun (OO), none of which would change their alignments.

Don't forget about the Altars of the Luonnatar. Those are forbidden to evil civs (unless they build them, then convert), and give some of the bests boni in the game.

 

[Cuteunit]

amurites are clearly ashen veil.

Bannor are clearly Order( at least in theme)

The real thrust of this thread is my question of why Evil is given the cool toys and thus, features most prominently in strategy talks here on the boards.

 

[Rex rgis of Ter]

amurites are clearly ashen veil.

Bannor are clearly Order( at least in theme)

The real thrust of this thread is my question of why Evil is given the cool toys and thus, features most prominently in strategy talks here on the boards.

Amurites are also potentially OO or RoK, which both help tremendously with your research.

Bannor are indeed Order, and can support enormous empires with them.

I find FoL the most fun religion in the game. I rarely play Ashen Veil, because I hate the Armaggedon. Evil civs must deal with the Armaggedon and are not protected very well against it. While evil is more powerful short term, they will inevitably be almost destroyed by their work. Good on the other hand, espescially the Order, has a great option to support large empires and prevent the Armaggedon.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

Amurites are clearly Ashen Veil because...?

Really they make most sense as OO because Hemah is strongest under their control, but they aren't very closely tightly tied to any religion.

Of course the Bannor are designed for the Order, bu they are a good civ from the very start.

 

[Cuteunit]

Hemah is just powerful either way, being an archmage before strength of will.

 

[Cuteunit]

AV temple adds research and allows assigning another Sage. That also makes it a clear go for the Sidar too, which I find annoying for concept reasons.

 

[xienwolf]

That is a mechanics argument. Why thematically would they go AV? I never use sages, and do quite well with the Amurites.

 

[Cuteunit]

That's part of why I made the thread. The mechanics often contradict the theme.

 

[xienwolf]

Mechanically ideal choices not agreeing with thematically ideal ones is a side effect of the team's decision to avoid patterns and repetition.

It is at times frustrating, but also part of the replayability factor that makes this mod great.

 

[rusty217]

That is a mechanics argument. Why thematically would they go AV? I never use sages, and do quite well with the Amurites.

Well Amurties could thematically go veil becuase they are the best mages and it was mages who originally found the demons that the veil worships, maybe dain or valledia was one of the ones who found the demons. Atleast if the Amurites found it in the course of the game.

I don't play Amurites so i don't know which religion helps them the most, however last time i saw the xmls the Amurites preferred fellowship of leaves by a small amount...

 

[Cuteunit]

what if the most ideal religion for the Calabim was Order. Would that be OK with you?

 

[xienwolf]

For me personally it'd be fine, since if I play for RP I follow story and theme, but when I don' t care about that I always go neutral for druids, it's just what I like.

 

[BCalchet]

what if the most ideal religion for the Calabim was Order. Would that be OK with you?

Of course, I'd argue that the most ideal religion for the Calabim, mechanically, *is* the Order...


But really, just because something works well mechanics-wise without meshing perfectly with the story, that doesn't mean the story or the mechanics have to change.

For example, I've found the ideal civilization for switching to Hyborem to be the Malakim - but that certainly doesn't mean the Malakim should be evil or have a diplomacy bonus with Hyborem or somesuch!

Similarly, Cardith Lorda's supercities work very well alongside the Overlords 'Tower of Complacency' wonder, but that doesn't mean the Cardith of the story should be a mean kid with a liking for mind control, or that the wonder needs be changed to work less well with his third-ring capabilities.

 

[Mewtarthio]

what if the most ideal religion for the Calabim was Order. Would that be OK with you?

What's wrong with that? The Calabim love keeping everyone in line and ensuring every person plays his or her role (ie foodstuffs). And they'd certainly be opposed to the destruction of the world: They've got a nice racket going on, and the end of all things would just put a damper on their fun. Remember: In Erebus, "Good" just means "opposed to Evil."

Now, if the Calabim went with the Empyrean, on the other hand...

 

[Roghar]

well, good doesn't just mean opposed to evil in this game. Civics like Sacrifice the Weak and abilities like Feast pretty much distinguish evil as an attribute with no regard for any life

 

[Nikis-Knight]

There are so many different mechanics, there are bound to be some odd synergies. Though, I do wonder about some you mention. Just because AV allows a sage, the Amurites should favor it? Who doesn't like sages? And, who can't benefit from a priest instead? This one is more situational than civ-specific, imo.

I think the only place a strong story case could be made is the Lanun leader Hannah, who is a bit on the dark side, or at least the wild side.

As for evil mechanics being more powerful, the pendulum swings both ways. Esus and Empyrean are still under development, as is everything though. Awhile back there were polls showing AV underused. It got some fun goodies in Fire, which have recently been reduced somewhat. Enough? Maybe, that's what you all are good at determining.

On paper, I think the RoK is the least interesting/useful, but a lot of people would disagree, and that's great.

 

[Caradoc]

My last game was Amurites/Leaves led by Faeryl. Makes a certain amount of sense flavorwise, and worked out quite well in practice.

 

[ophite]

The Order now works fantastically for a Guilds or Theocracy-based specialist economy, as you can increase your happiness cap simply by building more military units. Sure, AV can turn out way more specialists with Sacrifice the Weak--but unless they can keep them happy with Gambling Houses, Theaters, and Law Liches--they just aren't as useful.

-- ACS