Yeah you'll find an amazing diffference in the history written by the greeks in Roman employ (polybus) compared to the Latins writing about Carthage, read Livy's talk about the battle of Cannae v Polybus'. Did a report on that very subject.
Why not Hannibal??
- Thread starter Ozzy88
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Yeah you'll find an amazing diffference in the history written by the greeks in Roman employ (polybus) compared to the Latins writing about Carthage, read Livy's talk about the battle of Cannae v Polybus'. Did a report on that very subject.
Louis XXIV
Le Roi Soleil
Well, Polybius was just a better historian. He wasn't pro-Carthaginian either, though. The most fortunate thing, though, is Polybius had access to Hannibal's side of the story. Hannibal brought the Greek historians with him for his own propaganda purposes. These sources have been lost to history, but they were important enough for Polybius to feel the need to respond to them (and sometimes use them as his source). We can sorta reconstruct what they had to say based on Polybius.
theguy8882
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Gustavus Adolfus (I think I spelled it right) is also a great general, so he's in it too.
I agree with this. I don't think Carthage was the gateway to Roman dominance, if anything it delayed Roman dominance. If Carthage never existed, Rome would have probably conquered the Mediterranean much sooner than they actually did.
Also, considering the fact that Carthage's unique unit is the elephant, and the unique ability is crossing mountains, Hannibal should definitely be the leader. Hannibal is the one who made the elephants and the mountain crossings famous, not Dido! Dido had absolutely nothing to do with this.
It's kind of like how Germany's unique unit is the panzer, Hitler was the one who was the leader at the time panzers were used. Bismarck was not the leader during the time of the landsknecht or the panzer. But Hitler will never be included in Civ (besides mods) for political reasons. Even though Stalin was included and he killed twice as many people as Hitler.
I can't say anything other than I totally agree with you on this point and this is why I made this thread to begin with. Everything about Carthage in G&K reflects Hannibals exploits, he should be represented, not Dido!
Louis XXIV
Le Roi Soleil
Well, the harbor part of their UA and Quiquereme don't reflect Hannibal since, by that point, Carthage's great fleet had been stripped away and they lost their Sicilian, Corsican, and Sardinian ports. It's a sad truth that Hannibal crossed the alps because there no longer was a navy to take him to Italy. Rome commanded the seas.
In addition, most of Hannibal's Elephants died crossing the Alps and the rest died soon after. He used them at the Battle of Zama where they backfired and caused him to lose. In reality, the Quinquereme, harbor benefit, and Elephants reflect the First Punic War before Hannibal's time. The only thing that truly reflects Hannibal is the mountain crossing ability, and that was just trying to have a cute Hannibal reference.
I don't like Dido as a leader because I have doubts as to whether she actually ever existed, but I don't think the abilities reflect Hannibal, they reflect Carthage.
In addition, most of Hannibal's Elephants died crossing the Alps and the rest died soon after. He used them at the Battle of Zama where they backfired and caused him to lose. In reality, the Quinquereme, harbor benefit, and Elephants reflect the First Punic War before Hannibal's time. The only thing that truly reflects Hannibal is the mountain crossing ability, and that was just trying to have a cute Hannibal reference.
I don't like Dido as a leader because I have doubts as to whether she actually ever existed, but I don't think the abilities reflect Hannibal, they reflect Carthage.
While having some variety is nice, I gotta go with Hannibal. Sure, when the gap between the recognizability of a female and male leader is small (e.g. Catherine vs. Peter, Boudica vs. Brennus) I'm all for choosing the chick, but Hannibal is basically the emblem of Carthage. He's up there with Caesar, Alexander, and Napoleon in terms of military genius and fame. I'd never even heard of Dido until now.
seasnake
Conquistador
I think Dido works well with the title Phoenician Heritage. I would have preferred Hannibal but they give him a nod with the units crossing mountains once a great general is spawned.
This is definitely true.
I think this is probably true (although the mountain crossing is purely Hannibal). However, Hannibal is the one who made Carthage's abilities famous. Or at least "proper" history teaches us that this is the way it is, whether it's true or not.
There are even theories that all of human civilization has existed only in the past 1,000 years and that even the Romans are grossly misrepresented in History. I guess there is no way for us to know for sure since none of use were alive at the time. All we can do is put the pieces of the puzzle together and try our best to form a picture of what happened.
Louis XXIV
Le Roi Soleil
I hope you mean 10,000 years.
No, I mean 1,000 years. I don't believe it's true at all. They can carbon date artifacts and there are other methods to know that civilization has existed much longer than 1,000 years.
But I have read theories about classical history (Greeks and Romans in particular) being completely made up, they say that the Roman Empire never existed and that the aqueducts, colosseum and other things are only 500-1000 years old. I don't think it's true, but some people do. It's probably a very small minority though, kind of like there are still some people who think the Earth is flat.
What I explained above is a very extreme view of history, which I do not believe at all. But I do think that we only know what happened with certanity for the past few hundred years. There is a good chance that ancient history is very flawed and far from reality. I think Roman history is the most reliable since they were the most recent. When going farther back, like ancient Egypt for example, things get much more hazy and uncertain.
Like the Trojan wars for example. Nobody knows for sure if the Trojan horse was real or not. The Trojan war may be mythology based on a little bit of truth. Or the war may be completely true, but the story about the horse may be a metaphor for something else.
Yeah, pretty much this. Dido as leader of Carthage is OK with me. Dido as the slightly-more-pop-culture leader (outside the Civ world) coupled with a very much pop culture representation of Carthage that sacrifices authenticity for "yeah, Carthage was totally all about crossing mountains and elephants, wasn't it? I think I heard about that back in 9th grade" leaves a very bitter taste in my mouth.
(Not saying that the developers are juvenile; just that it looks like that's the crowd they're trying to appeal to at the cost of authenticity. Yeah yeah I know not a historical simulation blah blah blah... but it's like making the French UA "Quickly Surrenders." It panders to a particular lack of understanding and could generate interest for that reason, but the civ deserves better than that and IMO so do the players.")
AbsintheRed
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SpoCk0nd0pe
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The Barkid family even minted coins with their Faces during their time on the Iberian peninsular, usually a previlige for rulers.
You must mean the second Punic War, Carthage was razed at the end of the third Punic War, Hannibal was long dead before it started.
I know I'm being off topic but Mao and Stalin are known for being the greatest murderers among their own people. It's acually quite political incorrect to request them as civ leaders since there are still living witnesses.
You must mean the second Punic War, Carthage was razed at the end of the third Punic War, Hannibal was long dead before it started.
I know I'm being off topic but Mao and Stalin are known for being the greatest murderers among their own people. It's acually quite political incorrect to request them as civ leaders since there are still living witnesses.
Mao and Stalin have both already been included as leaders in previous Civ versions. I understand how some people may be sensitive to it, and your point does have validity.
But regardless, the decision has already been made that it's okay to include Mao and Stalin. Both Mao and Stalin killed more people than Hitler. But Hitler can "NEVER" be allowed becasue the "powers that be" command that society believe he was the #1 killer of all time, which is completely false. Stalin rounded up Jews and killed them just like Hitler. And Hitler didn't just kill Jews, he killed everybody. Hitler was a monster, but so was Stalin and Mao. The whole Hitler situation has been propagandized and is used as a political weapon. It's sad that some people think it's okay to use a tragedy as a political weapon.
Louis XXIV
Le Roi Soleil
Or a privilege of a Carthaginian general. Carthaginian generals in Sicily routinely minted coins in the 5th and 4th Centuries BC. Their coins would say Qrthdst/mhnt (Carthage/the camp), which meant that they were printed specifically for use to pay their mercenary soldiers. Now this privilege was taken away from Sicilian generals because a couple of them tried to seize power in Carthage with a mercenary army, so the city decided to control the purse themselves. However, in Spain, the Barcids had the silver mines, the mints, and the mercenaries, so it makes sense.
I do agree they were more autonomous. They weren't rulers of Carthage, though. Hannibal later was a Suffette after the second war. He was apparently very effective at rooting out corruption (to the point where they could pay back their war reparations very early), but this caused a backlash among the important people who gained their success through corruption and he was forced out of power. Interestingly, the Roman General, (Publius Cornelius) Scipio Africanus ended up the same way - unable to truly succeed in peace time like they were in war. So, while he probably wasn't the most important statesman, his combined role of general, inspirational figure, and statesman is enough to count, imo.
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