WHY was the celtic civilization removed from the game??

[elderotter]

Ever read the "Gallo Bellum" of J. Caesar? Ever heard about boudicca's revolt? Roma victor!

Rome never conquered the Celts - She subdued and assimliated alot of them but she never hit Ireland and She built a wall to stop the Scots and Picts from invading her colonies in England. It was the Anglo-Saxons who did the most damge there. I think they should be re-introduced in the expansion. Question
Why did God invent Whiskey? Answer: So that the Irish wouldn't conquer the World(note I am Irish American). Rome hurt the Continental Celts because Celts all have the souls of poets - Rome was full of merchants and slave dealers. I believe the Celts were the first Civ in Europe using Iron weapons.l

 

[CrazyMrLeo]

It is an inevitable limitation on civ. You can't include every major power in history. The makers of this game chose 18 civs, and they were pretty good choices, but some favourites were bound to be left out. One could just as easily ask: where are the Turks? The Vikings? The Dutch? The Babylonians? The list goes on and on and on and on, and then on some more. Yes, the Celts were left out this time around, and they would have been a fun civ to play as, but there's always expansions to look forward to, and if all else fails, you can always find a mod.

 

[Fredrick]

Why don´t we have the celts around in civ 4?? My culture (celt) has been one of the most important and influential throughout history, at least here in old Europe. Our cultural legacy has standed the test of time and is still alive & kicking nowadays. Not to mention the mighty, fierce and hardened celtic warriors and heroes, who doblegated the powerful roman empire (and other lesser ones).

I´m very, VERY displeased with that.


Long live Brennus!!!

What about the vikings?

 

[scottrycroft]

"No, the English are predominantly Anglo/Saxon/Norman with some Celtic in there (Britain hasn't been all Celtic since the 6th century) The language definetly isn't Celtic."

No, the English are a predominantly Celtic people. Like all modern nations, including Italy, Scotland, Ireland and Wales, the population has mingled somewhat. Like most (all?) modern nations, including Italy, Scotland, Ireland and Wales, they no longer speak the tongue that the ancients spoke.

Although the culture in both Italy and England has changed enormously since ancient times, it's basically the same section of humanity, in a common section of geography, and the cultural influences of those ancient times live on.

If one were to view England and the Celts as wholly separate (which would be a fair viewpoint to hold - the years have changed the culture so much that, aside from geography and population, they don't have *that* much in common), one must also view Italy and Rome as separate (and also Scotland and the Celts as separate, Wales and the Celts as seperate and so on).

Scottish, Welsh, Irish and people from Brittany are Celtic and their language is descended from Celtic languages. English is not related to Celtic at all.

When the Anglo-Saxons invaded Britain in the 6th century they slowly pushed out the Britons (Celts) to other places. The ones that stayed became more Anglo-Saxon than Celtic. Then you had the Normans come in and diluted the Celtic even more. I'm not denying a link between modern English and Celts, it's just very small compared to others (the rest of the British Isles).

Don't believe me? Read: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celt Don't trust wikipedia? I'll get some book quotes from a friend who teaches Celtic history.

Sorry for the OT. My point still stands though: Celts were not included because they were more than a people group than a nation. Same reason Iroquois were not included (a confederation of tribes, not one nation). They obviously wanted civilizations that lasted a long time, and had significant effect on other peoples as a cohesive state.

The title of the thread is a bit misleading too. The Celts were not removed, they just were never put in the new version (same as Zulus)

 

[scottrycroft]

I believe the Celts were the first Civ in Europe using Iron weapons.l

They also invented soap, chain mail, and their use of the large oval shield was copied by Romans and Greeks.

 

[henrycccc]

Celts were little more than a barbarian tribe, with no culture and alot of population. THey outnumbered the romans , but were defeated easily by them, due to lack of organization.

 

[Jabba]

No, the English are a predominantly Celtic people. Like all modern nations, including Italy, Scotland, Ireland and Wales, the population has mingled somewhat. Like most (all?) modern nations, including Italy, Scotland, Ireland and Wales, they no longer speak the tongue that the ancients spoke.

This is wrong and Scottycroft is correct. The English are not predominantly Celtic, although they include some Celtic blood. Recent genetic research shows that more of the original Celts survived in England than was originally supposed, BUT this research does not show that the surviving Celts outnumbered the invading Anglo-Saxons.

One recent study found that in southern England surviving Celts may have outnumbered the Anglo-Saxons:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/584960/posts

Note, however, that this conclusion only applies to parts of southern England. Elsewhere in England, the Anglo-Saxons became predominant, and the Celts were almost entirely displaced:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/wales/2076470.stm
http://www.monikie.org.uk/race-and-dna.htm

Overall, one certainly cannot say that the English are "predominantly Celtic".

In any case, the identity of a civilization is not a matter of genetics. The Celts who survived in Anglo-Saxon England were fully assimilated, adopting Anglo-Saxon language, customs and culture.

My point still stands though: Celts were not included because they were more than a people group than a nation. Same reason Iroquois were not included (a confederation of tribes, not one nation). They obviously wanted civilizations that lasted a long time, and had significant effect on other peoples as a cohesive state.

Also quite correct. Saying that the Celts were an "empire" or a "superpower" is like saying that Slavs or Hispanics are an empire or a superpower. It confuses an ethnic group with a political entity.

 

[spudmessy]

One of the viable reason why "xxx" feature/race/etc is not in CivIV might probably be because they are saving them for an expansion.

Profit is the driving motivation

 

[John Lenin]

Scene: Dark Ages Europe, the Parliament of Anglo-Saxia

Int., the parliament hall

Prime Minister: I say, chaps, lay aside your cups of tea and let's go and invade Britain. We are, after all, indubitably a distinct nation and it is our settled will - our manifest destiny, even - to occupy the lands recently vacated by Rome and found a nation we shall call England. I hear that they're all Welsh over there at the moment, so it'll be easy pickings. Anybody in the future who tries to say that our occupation of formerly Roman territories in Britannia is a disorganised and unconscious act of opportunism on the part of disparate people will be a Liar! Let us maintain ye olde stiff upper lip in ye dayes to come.

 

[Tee Kay]

You can't say the Celts were "removed" until you know what civilization will be in the expansion.

 

[John Lenin]

Why don´t we have the celts around in civ 4?? My culture (celt) has been one of the most important and influential throughout history, at least here in old Europe. Our cultural legacy has standed the test of time and is still alive & kicking nowadays. Not to mention the mighty, fierce and hardened celtic warriors and heroes, who doblegated the powerful roman empire (and other lesser ones).

I´m very, VERY displeased with that.


Long live Brennus!!!

Uh? Wh do you think inhabited Britannia at the time of the Roman conquest? Yes - Celts. (Popular and risible misconceptions about the Romans somehow invading 'England' centuries before its existence notwithstanding.) Unless I've misread what I think you mean by 'doblegated'.

Having said that, yep, I miss the Celts tribe too. Brennus was a favourite character in Civ3. As others have said though, if they're not in a future expansion I'll eat my shillealagh

 

[shackleton]

From your wikipedia link..

"Recent DNA studies have confirmed that the population of England maintains a predominately ancient British element, equal in most parts to Cornwall and Wales."

The culture in England presently is not the same as the culture of the ancient Celts. Neither is the culture in Italy the same as the culture of ancient Rome.

The English language has many roots. Celtic is one of them.

My point still stands; if one is to reject the English as an heir of the Celtic Empire, then one must also reject the Italians as an heir of the Roman Empire.

 

[Jabba]

The Wikipedia entry is wrong. Read the links I posted which discuss the research in detail. They make clear that the discovery of widespread Celtic ancestry refers only to parts of southern England. A good example of how historical myths get started. I don't blame you that you were duped.

The idea that the Italians are "heirs" to the Roman empire is quite ridiculous. Romans, Italians, Celts and English are all quite distinct civilizations, even if they share people with the same blood.

 

[Pounder]

Celts are the Civ I miss the most as well.

I also think that the Vikings, Mayans and Sumerians should have been in the first release. They better be in the first expansion pack.

 

[King Ash]

Pfff...why aren't the Babylonians in? They were very influential as well. Why aren't the Goths, Huns, Hittites, Phoenicians, Parthians, Turks, Byzantines, Vikings, Maya and the Dutch ( ) in? They all were influential!?!

I suspect the expansion will add a few lost civs...

 

[Xenophonos]

Celts!?

The Celts were never unified. They were bands of nomads who spanned a large swath of uninhabited land (until their piece of real estate jumped in price circa 400 AD)

At the expense of the Greeks? A culture which spanned from Spain to within 200 miles of China, a culture who has inspired human history for 2 millenia, a culture (Byzantine Empire) who kept the beacon of knowledge alive in the East when the rest of Europe were ignorant potato farmers for a span of 2000 years, and protected the Eastern Flank of Europe from Hordes of Enemies, from the Vikings to the Mongols, allowing Western Europe, safely nestled in its comfort zone to develop at the expense of others.

While the Celts have had some impact on history, I'd rather see the Poles, Mughals and Scythians as a Civ in Civ.

 

[Cloud Tiamat]

Meh, I'm still sad the Babylonians were axed.

 

[Ribannah]

Celts were not included because they were more than a people group than a nation. Same reason Iroquois were not included (a confederation of tribes, not one nation). They obviously wanted civilizations that lasted a long time, and had significant effect on other peoples as a cohesive state.

I doubt that those were the criteria, because otherwise the short-lived Inca and Aztec empires would have been replaced with Iroquois (league of nations, not of tribes) and Maya.
Most likely, there were no criteria at all, and they simply chose what they liked, with some attention to variety.

 

[Psyringe]

Meh, I'm still sad the Babylonians were axed.

Seems you're interested in dead civilizations as well as dead threads.

Archeologist by heart?

 

[BirraImperial]

I thought that perhaps with Civ4 being released on DVD there were going to be more civs, but now we have 18. Maybe they should include at least the Babylonians, Dutch, Vikings, Celts, Zulus and some other Civs in a DVD version that could include one or two discs.