Why would anyone oppose Healthcare/Welfare/Education?

[Katheryn]

I'm wondering how much government influence/power you would ideally want? How much would have to be privatized before you say "Ok, that's perfect" ?

Only so much that the government workers start caring about competition, and begin trying doing a good job.

 

[Sidhe]

You have to keep in mind our huge legal and illegal alien population. Many are extremely poor and have not had any health care in their lives. They get free medical care and they are NOT deported for it.

We have problems with TB, hepatitis, and many other diseases brought from poverty stricken Latin and South American countries. A good third of the babies born in the U.S. are anchor babies. When a pregnant mother crossed the Arizona desert to get in, the baby is hugely at risk, although they keep coming. It is a huge drain on our health care system and many hospitals have had to close because they do not receive income from illegal aliens. It is illegal for a hospital to turn anyone away at the door.

In my country we deport them because you have to give an address or a National insurance number, so they'll quickly get turfed out if they go to hospital. It's still not a great number, considering in countries with health systems the figure is obviously closer to 0%. With everyone recieving care regardless of their income or legal status. It isn't a truly representative figure though I take your point.

 

[Desmond Hawkins]

I'm a student right now but I used to be a banquet waiter and I got promoted to banquet captain.

You were responsible for being servile and polite even in the most abusive (on the part of diners) situations?

 

[Fifty]

You were responsible for being servile and polite even in the most abusive (on the part of diners) situations?

Yep! and it was at a snobby golf club too so it was FULL of morons who thought they were awesome.

 

[GoodEnoughForMe]

I1) It's going to cost too much!

The government always costs too much.

- Oh no, you won't be able to buy a Hummer and a new flat screen TV while the family down the street can barely make end's meet.

If I want to buy a TV with my money I damn well can. Aren't you rich? What are you doing with your money? Are you donating all your money to the poor?

But seriously, welfare and healthcare do not cost so much, so you obviously have enough money... it's not going to suddenly put you into poverty. In essence, it is impossible for you to be put into poverty from these programs, because if that happens welfare would help you again..

I don't want welfare, especially if I am paying for it. In essence, you are telling me to pay my way out of poverty through taxes which go to the welfare that helps me. That makes no sense.

2) I've already got good healthcare and I'm too rich to need welfare!

- A very selfish argument. You want yourself to live well and let everyone else starve and die of preventable diseases? A rather selfish and bad argument.

That's a terrible argument. I don't want everyone to die, just to work for stuff. Not get it from my tax money.

3) I don't want illegal aliens to get healthcare!

- Usually the argument used by rasists. Replace illegal alien with "Mexican" and you'll see the true argument.

I don't see immigration as a problem really, but most people aren't racist like this as you proclaim.

4) I can put my kids in a good private school, so why should I support better education?

- Another selfish argument where one would sacrifice the rest of the world just because they can already afford good education.

Public schools don't need more money right now. They need teacher's unions gone and they need state bureaucracy gone. Money does not instantly improve education.

 

[History_Buff]

And a quick point that needs to be said. National Healthcare tends to be cheaper than the system you have in America now, simply because it is far more efficient. The American Healthcare industry actually spends more money sorting out who gets paid for what than it does actually helping the sick. How you guys can scream about government red-tape and put up with that I'll never know.

 

[Tycoon101]

I'll take a crack at this.

1) It's going to cost too much!

- Oh no, you won't be able to buy a Hummer and a new flat screen TV while the family down the street can barely make end's meet. But seriously, welfare and healthcare do not cost so much, so you obviously have enough money... it's not going to suddenly put you into poverty. In essence, it is impossible for you to be put into poverty from these programs, because if that happens welfare would help you again..

I don't have a hummer. I don't have a wide screen TV. Hell, I don't even have a proper "house", yet I would be hit with a huge tax increase just because I am in the middle-middle class. If someone just does not work for his own health, then I feel that he has no right to take my money. This country is built on self-responsibility; Once you take the responsibility out of the economy, then you take away the self, the creativity, and the ingenuity that has characterised America for its entire lifespan.

2) I've already got good healthcare and I'm too rich to need welfare!

- A very selfish argument. You want yourself to live well and let everyone else starve and die of preventable diseases? A rather selfish and bad argument.

What about those of us who don't use medical facilities? Why should I pay for a man who broke his arm, or had his appendix explode because he made foolish errors. You may feel that you have the moral highground on these issues, but you are selfish as well for thinking that other people are more deserving of my money than I am.

3) I don't want illegal aliens to get healthcare!

- Usually the argument used by rasists. Replace illegal alien with "Mexican" and you'll see the true argument.

That's just the thing; Illegal Aliens are illegally in our country. Are criminals entitled to my money?

4) I can put my kids in a good private school, so why should I support better education?

- Another selfish argument where one would sacrifice the rest of the world just because they can already afford good education.

As has been said before; I am not opposed to public education, I am opposed to how public education funds are handled by the government. I believe that I have no reason to pay a large portion of my wage to send some lazy high school dropout to classes that he ignores. If the children are a truely good students, then I would fully support public education funding, but that is not the case in America.

 

[Sidhe]

And a quick point that needs to be said. National Healthcare tends to be cheaper than the system you have in America now, simply because it is far more efficient. The American Healthcare industry actually spends more money sorting out who gets paid for what than it does actually helping the sick. How you guys can scream about government red-tape and put up with that I'll never know.

I wouldn't try and reason with Americans, it's socialism nuff said. That it costs twice the same in GDP as The British NHS, and doesn't make us pay more taxes than the US, is beside the point. it's just bad okay.

 

[amadeus]

If nationalization would improve the quality of services, why don't we just change our entire economy to a centrally planned one?

 

[colontos]

When it comes to a point that you'd rather buy a Hummer than help out someone in need, we have reached a critical point of decadence in our society.

So I guess this means you'll be giving up your college education and devoting your life to helping the poor.

And if you're going to throw the word "racist" around as much as you do, SPELL IT CORRECTLY, WITH A "C".

 

[Tycoon101]

If nationalization would improve the quality of services, why don't we just change our entire economy to a centrally planned one?

One must consider that fact that the more steps that you throw into a process, the more inefficient it becomes. By taxing people via the government, less money will be delivered to the poor than is the rich just voluntarily gave charitable contributions to the poor.

And let's just say that the rich DO give charitable contributions to the poor, contrary to some popular sensationalistic thoughts.

 

[Sidhe]

If nationalization would improve the quality of services, why don't we just change our entire economy to a centrally planned one?

I fail to see how this is a cogent argument, if A then tangentally B? Care to explain?

 

[bhsup]

From your other thread on this subject.

Do I? Do I really oppose healthcare, welfare, and education? Or do I perhaps oppose Federalhealthcare, welfare, and education funding? Show me in the Constitution where it says the Federal government should be involved with those things, and I'll not be so vocal in my opposition to it. I've never voiced absolute opposition to State funding for any of those (though I do think welfare would be best dealt with via private charities).



P.S. - My sister-in-law just freaked at my rapid typing going on over here at my desk.

 

[CIVPhilzilla]

I have read some of the posts here and sometimes it seems like if we implement universal healthcare in America our country would go down the drain. It is the same kind of people that want to do away with Welfare and send millions of families into homelessness and poverty.

Our government has already accumulated over 8.6 trillion dollars in debt, why should we entrust the entire health care system to them? If a corporation ran that much red ink, nobody would be calling for them to take on even more responsibility. Private systems have an incentive to compete and become more efficient, the government does not.

What is the reason for people going against these projects? I can't think of ONE good reason.

Placing one of the largest and most important industries in our country under the control of a group that has over 8.6 trillion in red ink, running hundreds of billions of dollars in deficits, and absolutely no incentive to become more efficient or compete just doesn't sit well with me. Also the prospect over having 2/3 of my pay check going to the government so they can actually afford to provide such service just isn't very appealing.

1) It's going to cost too much!

- Oh no, you won't be able to buy a Hummer and a new flat screen TV while the family down the street can barely make end's meet. But seriously, welfare and healthcare do not cost so much, so you obviously have enough money... it's not going to suddenly put you into poverty. In essence, it is impossible for you to be put into poverty from these programs, because if that happens welfare would help you again..

You do realize the top 5% of the country provides over half of the tax revenue to the government, why should they be forced to give up more of their hard earned money. Health care is a very large an expensive industry to begin with, adding in government inefficiency and you are talking a huge burden on the economy, in the form of double digit unemployment, small economic growth (as seen in many European nations).

2) I've already got good healthcare and I'm too rich to need welfare!

- A very selfish argument. You want yourself to live well and let everyone else starve and die of preventable diseases? A rather selfish and bad argument.

Everybody has the chance to work for and have health care, if they consistently make bad choices in life, they will never learn to change if the government is always there to bail them out.

3) I don't want illegal aliens to get healthcare!

- Usually the argument used by rasists. Replace illegal alien with "Mexican" and you'll see the true argument.

So not wanting to give treatment to criminals who are trying to leech money off the economy is racist?

4) I can put my kids in a good private school, so why should I support better education?

- Another selfish argument where one would sacrifice the rest of the world just because they can already afford good education.

Education should be funded at the local or state level, the Department of Education has yet to educate a single child.

 

[WillJ]

If Milton Friedman were reading Commie #4522's post, he would be stunned by its brilliance. Congratulations, Commie #4522, your wisdom in matters of political economy is unmatched. Your rigorous analysis of the "It's going to cost too much!" argument was especially insightful.

 

[Sidhe]

Our government has already accumulated over 8.6 trillion dollars in debt, why should we entrust the entire health care system to them? If a corporation ran that much red ink, nobody would be calling for them to take on even more responsibility. Private systems have an incentive to compete and become more efficient, the government does not.

/snip

Education should be funded at the local or state level, the Department of Education has yet to educate a single child.

You're right placing that much responsibility in a governement that isn't responsible is suicidal, perhaps a health service is a thought for another day, when a governement that isn't stupid gets in.

 

[CIVPhilzilla]

You're right placing that much responsibility in a governement that isn't responsible is suicidal, perhaps a health service is a thought for another day, when a governement that isn't stupid gets in.

I have a feeling we'll be waiting a long time before a responsible government gets into power.

 

[puglover]

The fact is that if government took over healthcare, it would become as bloated and useless as our current social security program. There are very few places government should go in my opinion. Private individuals will work just as well if not better in areas of health caare, welfare, and education.

It's not because I don't care about Healthcare/Welfare/Education. It's exactly because I care about them that I don't want the government screwing them up for Americans who genuinely need help.

 

[Trajan12]

I have read some of the posts here and sometimes it seems like if we implement universal healthcare in America our country would go down the drain. It is the same kind of people that want to do away with Welfare and send millions of families into homelessness and poverty.

What is the reason for people going against these projects? I can't think of ONE good reason.

Here are some:

1) It's going to cost too much!

- Oh no, you won't be able to buy a Hummer and a new flat screen TV while the family down the street can barely make end's meet. But seriously, welfare and healthcare do not cost so much, so you obviously have enough money... it's not going to suddenly put you into poverty. In essence, it is impossible for you to be put into poverty from these programs, because if that happens welfare would help you again..

2) I've already got good healthcare and I'm too rich to need welfare!

- A very selfish argument. You want yourself to live well and let everyone else starve and die of preventable diseases? A rather selfish and bad argument.

3) I don't want illegal aliens to get healthcare!

- Usually the argument used by rasists. Replace illegal alien with "Mexican" and you'll see the true argument.

4) I can put my kids in a good private school, so why should I support better education?

- Another selfish argument where one would sacrifice the rest of the world just because they can already afford good education.

Man, all I have to say is, thank you for reminding me why I am not and never will be a communist.

Anyways, I think National Health care would be a problem for all the reasons that VRWC Agent said in the other thread about abortion. Also, because too many people in here are unhealthy and make no effort to be healthy. So it just doesn't sound smart to me. Put some guidelines and restrictions on it and I'll be fine.

 

[Sidhe]

The fact is that if government took over healthcare, it would become as bloated and useless as our current social security program. There are very few places government should go in my opinion. Private individuals will work just as well if not better in areas of health caare, welfare, and education.

It's not because I don't care about Healthcare/Welfare/Education. It's exactly because I care about them that I don't want the government screwing them up for Americans who genuinely need help.

Just like it did in Europe.

Your welfare system is bad, your healthcare system if done the same way would be bad: do it right then. Our welfare system works because we don't reward slothful attitude, we have measures to persecute it.