Wii still ahead

[Swein Forkbeard]

Umm... yes they have. Metal Gear Solid 2: Substance was released on the XBox in 2002. About what about Metal Gear 1 and 2 way back on the MSX? You really might want to research this stuff before you post, Swein.

On topic, warpstorm couldn't be more wrong about the Wii not selling software. Worldwide (not just counting America), it's selling considerably more software than the 360 or PS3. Japan is entirely dominated by the Wii and (especially) the DS right now. The Wii has 19 million seller titles already (the PS3 has 8). And in December 2007, the Wii sold more software in the US than any other platform. The whole "Wii sells hardware but not software" myth is ENTIRELY untrue. But because so many gamers are hostile to the changes brought by the Wii, expect to see that reputation continue to stick around, even as it gets more and more out of touch with reality.

Now that you're here, I want to ask you a question.

What gaming systems do you have and what games do you have on them?

 

[Kumquat]

Hmm where did I put my cardboard box...

 

[Sullla]

Now that you're here, I want to ask you a question.

What gaming systems do you have and what games do you have on them?

Growing up in the late 1980s and 1990s, I was much more of a console gamer than a PC one. I had both an NES (1990) and SNES (1993) and was able to enjoy a lot of really good games over the years. I have far too many to try and list them all, so I'll just say that I particularly enjoyed platforming, adventure, and RPG games. I've yet to see any other console top the incredible lineup of RPGs that the SNES was able to trot out.

The first console I actually bought myself (as opposed to my parents purchasing) was the N64, which was a day 1 launch buy in 1996. Although the N64 is viewed as a failure in a lot of circles, and rightfully so, I never regretted my purchase. It's probably the gaming platform I've gotten the most entertainment out of (aside from the PC, which is a special case). I owned quite a few games, with Goldeneye 007 and the original Smash Brothers topping the list in terms of most time played. I played Goldeneye non-stop for about two years straight, mastering the game to the point that I unlocked all of the game's cheats and my friends refused to play against me in MP anymore. Hehe.

I bought a Gamecube in 2001 because I wanted to play Smash Brothers Melee. But the Gamecube was a total disappointment for me; it failed to have many games that interested me, and I barely used it at all. I picked up a PS2 instead, using it to play the DDR games and the occasional RPG that looked interesting. I was pretty much a lapsed console gamer in the sixth generation, spending almost all of my gaming time on the PC. I had become deeply involved in the Civ community, which I found more interesting and rewarding. More recently, I purchased a Wii and have been extremely happy with it so far. I currently split my gaming time between it and my ongoing Civ activities.

I'm looking forward to the new Smash Brothers game, but I have plenty to occupy my interest until it gets here, so I'm in no rush.

 

[Swein Forkbeard]

Yes, I agree with you that the GCN didn't have too many exceptional games, with Metroid Prime, Resident Evil 4, SSB Melee, and Wind Waker being the best (and I regret spending my parents' money on crappy Sonic/Pacman/Rayman games instead of them). As a result, the first GameCube game I had was SSB Melee, and that is also by far the best one I have.

Yes, I have seen lots of interesting RPGs on the SNES. Final Fantasy II, Final Fantasy III, Chrono Trigger, Super Mario RPG, EarthBound; would you own any of them?

Given your fascination with RPGs and what you told me about your PS2 I would expect you to have Final Fantasy X.

The Nintendo 64 was viewed as a failure? Seriously? I mean, come on. Although maybe aside from Super Mario 64, Ocarina of Time, Golden Eye 007, and perhaps Perfect Dark none of them were exceptionally good. Speaking of which, did you have Ocarina of Time, Perfect Dark, Paper Mario, and Conker's Bad Fur Day?

 

[Chris85]

Personally I think the Gamecube was better than the N64. The N64 had great games, but had shortfalls such as using the cartridge format and a clumsy controller. It also seemed like Nintendo and Rare were the only 2 companies that could make good games for the N64. The system had hardly any 3rd party support, which spilled over into the GCN days. I'm not saying it was a failure, but it is in my opinion the weakest console Nintendo put out and it could of been better. Overall, I got more enjoyment out of the Gamecube and I thought it had better MP games than the N64.

The SNES was the golden age of RPGs. These were the ones I played:

Breath Of Fire II
Chrono Trigger
Earthbound
Final Fantasy II
Final Fantasy III
Fire Emblem 3: Mystery Of The Emblem
Fire Emblem 4: Geneaology Of The Holy War
Fire Emblem 5: Thracia 776
Lufia II: Rise of the Sinistrals
Ogre Battle
Secret Of Evermore
Secret Of Mana
Seiken Densetsu 3
Star Ocean
Super Mario RPG
Tales of Phantasia

 

[Swein Forkbeard]

Uhm, have you forgotten about Rayman 2? It is considered to be one of the best Platformers on the N64, and it wasn't made by Nintendo or Rare, was it?

 

[warpstorm]

The whole "Wii sells hardware but not software" myth is ENTIRELY untrue.

That is good to know. Now if we could just convince a certain big publisher...who used the line "Third-party games on the Wii are not selling" on us.

Out of curiosity, how many of those 19 hits were third-party titles?

 

[Chris85]

Rayman was made by Ubisoft. I'm not saying there weren't good games made by other companies, but if you look at any best game lists for the N64 you'll see that most of the games at the top were made by either Nintendo or Rare. Super Mario 64, Banjo-Kazooie, Banjo-Tooie, Conquer's Bad Fur Day, and Donkey Kong 64 were better platformers IMO.

 

[Abaddon]

I keep buying the official nintendo mag here in the UK, and its so depressing. Months go by and there is nothing to talk about but Smash and Kart.. a few titles that looked interesting turned out merely ok.. PLEASE!

Independant publishers get involved in the biggest selling console!

Whats stopping them?

 

[azzaman333]

Rayman was made by Ubisoft. I'm not saying there weren't good games made by other companies, but if you look at any best game lists for the N64 you'll see that most of the games at the top were made by either Nintendo or Rare. Super Mario 64, Banjo-Kazooie, Banjo-Tooie, Conquer's Bad Fur Day, and Donkey Kong 64 were better platformers IMO.

And Rare no longer developes for Nintendo

 

[GoodEnoughForMe]

Whats stopping them?

The biggest reason why the Wii's third party titles have been aboslutely lacking is because of many things. A lot of the third party struggles developed with both Nintendo's extrememly hard standards for third party developers, and their use of cartridges for the N64. This lack of 3rd party carried into the GC and then to the Wii. Also, the N64 was beat pretty good in sales by the PS and the GC was dominated by the PS2. So you have more hangover there. Combine this with the fact that many companies have to rap their head around how to best ultilize the new controller and that Nintendo is saying no to a lot of online capabilities, and you have problems.

On the plus side, the system is a big hit, has an audience that the other two consoles don't have, and is easy to develop for (minus the controls). I think the Wii is a lot like the DS in that the first year or so a lot of the games are gimmicky, but then it gets better.

Then again, there really isn't anythnig on the horizon.

 

[King of Town]

I get MLB 2k8 for the wii today. It better be a good baseba;; game, otherwise I have my Wii basically just to play mario kart....

 

[Strider]

The biggest reason why the Wii's third party titles have been aboslutely lacking is because of many things. A lot of the third party struggles developed with both Nintendo's extrememly hard standards for third party developers, and their use of cartridges for the N64. This lack of 3rd party carried into the GC and then to the Wii. Also, the N64 was beat pretty good in sales by the PS and the GC was dominated by the PS2. So you have more hangover there. Combine this with the fact that many companies have to rap their head around how to best ultilize the new controller and that Nintendo is saying no to a lot of online capabilities, and you have problems.

On the plus side, the system is a big hit, has an audience that the other two consoles don't have, and is easy to develop for (minus the controls). I think the Wii is a lot like the DS in that the first year or so a lot of the games are gimmicky, but then it gets better.

Then again, there really isn't anythnig on the horizon.

You also have to remember that although Nintendo has grown less strict since the N64 days they still basically "make" any game that comes from a 3rd party developer anyway. I've also heard it's more profitable to sell half a million PS3 games then it is to sell a million Wii games.

 

[Sullla]

You also have to remember that although Nintendo has grown less strict since the N64 days they still basically "make" any game that comes from a 3rd party developer anyway. I've also heard it's more profitable to sell half a million PS3 games then it is to sell a million Wii games.

I will address some of the other posts in this thread later, but Strider's comment needs to be corrected. The bolded statement is so completely and utterly untrue, I have to wonder where in the world you came up with it. Producing games in HD is enormously more expensive than making them in standard resolution. Regardless of whether you feel that Wii or PS3 games are more fun to play, it's an indisputable fact that Wii games are vastly cheaper to make, and therefore require fewer copies sold to turn a profit.

I can dig up a half-dozen article that comment further on this issue, but unfortunately I have to go and teach a class right now.

 

[Chukchi Husky]

I have 10 games for my Wii so far and 6 of them are third party. I pre ordered 2 games that are coming in a couple of months and one of them is third party.

 

[Sullla]

Some responses:

Yes, I have seen lots of interesting RPGs on the SNES. Final Fantasy II, Final Fantasy III, Chrono Trigger, Super Mario RPG, EarthBound; would you own any of them?

I've owned or at least played all but Earthbound. As Chris85 said, the SNES was the golden age of RPGs. It's not that the more recent games are bad, exactly; more that they just can't match the innovation of the earlier games. And no, adding more fancy cinematics does not mean innovation!

Given your fascination with RPGs and what you told me about your PS2 I would expect you to have Final Fantasy X.

I've played it, don't own it. The game is WAY too linear, and the voice acting is atrocious. Otherwise, it's not that bad. Not even in the same league as my favorite RPGs.

The Nintendo 64 was viewed as a failure? Seriously? I mean, come on. Although maybe aside from Super Mario 64, Ocarina of Time, Golden Eye 007, and perhaps Perfect Dark none of them were exceptionally good. Speaking of which, did you have Ocarina of Time, Perfect Dark, Paper Mario, and Conker's Bad Fur Day?

As I said, the N64 is probably my favorite console ever. But that doesn't change the fact that it was somewhat of a failure from a financial standpoint. Nintendo's horrible treatment of third-party support caused them to migrate en masse to Sony, something which still is causing problems to this day. Now, I still believe (and will always believe) that the BEST games of the fifth generation were on the N64. But the Playstation just had so many MORE games overall, due to having ALL the third-party support, plus second-rate clones of all of Nintendo's best games ("Crash Team Racing", anyone?), so it's easy to see why it was the winning platform. The N64 is the prime example of how having the best games doesn't always guarantee success in terms of sales.

That is good to know. Now if we could just convince a certain big publisher...who used the line "Third-party games on the Wii are not selling" on us.

Out of curiosity, how many of those 19 hits were third-party titles?

Yeah, I know. I think that if the Wii reaches 50m in sales, maybe developers will then finally wake up and realize it's not a fad after all. Interestingly, Japanese developers (especially Capcom) are embracing the Wii much faster than American and European ones, due to the fact that the Wii is sitting at close to 70% market share in Japan. I'm curious to see how that will change as this generation continues to progress.

You can see the full million seller list for Wii (as well as tons of other interesting data) at the VGChartz website. Their numbers aren't exact by any means; however, generally speaking they give a very accurate overall picture of the market. That is, if they say that Halo sold 3m copies, it may have only sold 2.5m, but it definitely didn't sell 1m! (Hopefully that makes sense.) If you can take everything with a 10-20% margin of error, you'll get a very good view of what's going on in terms of gaming sales right now. For the Wii million seller list, look here. Of those 19 million sellers, 6 are third-party. While that's not great, it's a start. Most of those games have sold enormously over expectations.

 

[warpstorm]

Thanks, Sullla, that may give some ammo for better pitching. I mean if a game like Red Steel sells over a million it should be possible for a good game to sell a million also (sorry for those who disagree with my assessment of Red Steel).

 

[Chris85]

I think Nintendo has recently made a pretty good recovery for 3rd party support, look no further than the DS.

As I said, the N64 is probably my favorite console ever. But that doesn't change the fact that it was somewhat of a failure from a financial standpoint. Nintendo's horrible treatment of third-party support caused them to migrate en masse to Sony, something which still is causing problems to this day. Now, I still believe (and will always believe) that the BEST games of the fifth generation were on the N64. But the Playstation just had so many MORE games overall, due to having ALL the third-party support, plus second-rate clones of all of Nintendo's best games ("Crash Team Racing", anyone?), so it's easy to see why it was the winning platform. The N64 is the prime example of how having the best games doesn't always guarantee success in terms of sales.

Makes you wonder where the industry would be today if the Nintendo-Sony deal to make the SNES CD didn't fall through, or if Nintendo was more open to 3rd party support back then.

I mean if a game like Red Steel sells over a million it should be possible for a good game to sell a million also (sorry for those who disagree with my assessment of Red Steel).

I don't think anyone will disagree with you. Red Steel was a disappointment.

 

[Swein Forkbeard]

I've played it, don't own it. The game is WAY too linear, and the voice acting is atrocious. Otherwise, it's not that bad. Not even in the same league as my favorite RPGs.

Well that's the kind of game I'd like. Sad that my parents bought me a GameCube instead of a PS2 (although maybe it was rarer and more expensive?).

 

[Abaddon]

PS2 at the time of release was a massive success. My friend got one on release day and promptly sold it to a rabid parent for over double!