Will it be possible to play TSL (True Starting Locations) in Civ 7?

[ColtSeavers]

This topic came up within seveal threads, especially due to the Civ Switching mechanism. I imagine, we could get some pretty wild debates about the "historical pathes" for some civilizations there, especially for the Americans. Who will be their predessors in this case? I guess that could be easier on a random map, than on a TSL map (in the latter case, some of the native peoples necessarily would have to become the US, which might be problematic for some of them).
Do you think FXS can solve these challenges and we will be able to play TSL maps in Civ 7?

 

[SupremacyKing2]

Do you think FXS can solve these challenges and we will be able to play TSL maps in Civ 7?

Yes.

I see 3 possibilities:

1) You restrict a game to just 1 Age thereby eliminating civ switching altogether. A game could feature a real Earth map with TSL locations for that specific Age. So for example, you play an Antiquity only game with Antiquity civ's TSL or you play an Exploration only game with Exploration civ's TSL. We know the base game will allow one Age games so TSL for this will be possible.
2) You start with TSL locations in the Antiquity Age and then let things "play out". So in the Exploration Age and then Modern Age, the civs would not be in their TSL locations anymore. But that would just be the "evolution" of the empires in this alternate history. This will also be possible since it just requires TSL at the start and the rest of the game would play with normal base game rules.
3) You start with TSL locations in the Antiquity Age. When changing to Exploration Age, you reset the map, to stay in the TSL location for the new civ. When changing to Modern Age, you reset the map again, to stay in the TSL location for the new civ. We know the map will expand for each Age. But this might require mods to change the map each Age to stay with TSL locations for new civs.

#1 and #2 are already possible now with the base game. So I think they are the most likely ways that Firaxis will do TSL.

 

[Krikkit1]

#3 is possible, but instead of changing the map, you change the civ unlocks. ie to switch to America in the Modern Age you must control some of the east coast of N America. Britain: some of the British isles.

If Rome expands deep into Africa they could go Songhai, and the Chola could become Meijii Japan (or France or Buganda) if they expand to the right places. (and Egypt can’t become Songhai if they don’t expand in that direction)

Maybe it would force a capital relocation.

 

[chaosprophet]

You can be TSL with the antiquity civilizations, which is in a way a more historic TSL version that previous games, as America, Brazil and etc as countries didn't start on those places at that time. And then if you want to be TSL for a civ not on first age, you can always make sure you will evolve into them when the appropriate age comes by.

The biggest hindrance to TSL right now would likely be in case of a multiplayer game where players are at different halfs of the map at antiquity, which doesn't seems like will be supported at release, but may be added later.

 

[pokiehl]

Hard to say. I can’t really imagine a good way for it to be implemented beyond a single-age game. For context, I don’t think TSL has ever been officially supported in a Civ except for Civ 6, so I don’t necessarily anticipate it coming back.

 

[Nikolai II]

Hard to say. I can’t really imagine a good way for it to be implemented beyond a single-age game. For context, I don’t think TSL has ever been officially supported in a Civ except for Civ 6, so I don’t necessarily anticipate it coming back.

Yeah, I agree with this. It's hard to do properly with the new setup, I imagine.

 

[ColtSeavers]

Hard to say. I can’t really imagine a good way for it to be implemented beyond a single-age game. For context, I don’t think TSL has ever been officially supported in a Civ except for Civ 6, so I don’t necessarily anticipate it coming back.

In Civ 1 - Civ 3 you could also play TSL Maps, so originally it has always been a part of the game. Obviously the TSL YnAMP Mods are very popular, too. I would certainly miss it very much, if it is not available anymore.

 

[pokiehl]

In Civ 1 - Civ 3 you could also play TSL Maps, so originally it has always been a part of the game. Obviously the TSL YnAMP Mods are very popular, too. I would certainly miss it very much, if it is not available anymore.

Is that right? I know Civ 3 for instance came with an earth map but I didn’t think it supported TSL without modding.

 

[SupremacyKing2]

I really like TSL maps so I really hope that civ7 will have one. My big quibble with civ6 TSL is that many of the start locations, like in Europe, were so close to each other that some civs could not even settle their capital. So it really ruined the normal game experience. Hopefully, civ7 will fix this with better maps. Or perhaps it could pre-select the civs to make sure that they are evenly spaced out. And with the new civ-switching feature, it could actually make TSL more interesting if civs "evolve" in a historically plausible way.

 

[uppi]

Hard to say. I can’t really imagine a good way for it to be implemented beyond a single-age game. For context, I don’t think TSL has ever been officially supported in a Civ except for Civ 6, so I don’t necessarily anticipate it coming back.

What is wrong with an ancient-era TSL start and let it play out from there? If the AI sticks to regional choices, they will end up in the semi-right place anyway.

I really like TSL maps so I really hope that civ7 will have one. My big quibble with civ6 TSL is that many of the start locations, like in Europe, were so close to each other that some civs could not even settle their capital. So it really ruined the normal game experience. Hopefully, civ7 will fix this with better maps. Or perhaps it could pre-select the civs to make sure that they are evenly spaced out. And with the new civ-switching feature, it could actually make TSL more interesting if civs "evolve" in a historically plausible way.

I don't think we'll get too many ancient-era European civs (Romans, Greeks, maybe Goths, Celts in a DLC sooner or later if not on release, but that is pretty much it). So an ancient-era TSL start would probably result in a much less crowded Europe than a Civ6 TSL start

 

[ColtSeavers]

Is that right? I know Civ 3 for instance came with an earth map but I didn’t think it supported TSL without modding.

Civ 3 had an official expansion called "play the world", where the respective TLC maps were included. I also vividly remember playing the TSL Earth Map on Civ 1, and I'm also sure that a TSL Map was included (at least Europe) in Civ 2 as well.

 

[ColtSeavers]

What is wrong with an ancient-era TSL start and let it play out from there? If the AI sticks to regional choices, they will end up in the semi-right place anyway.



I don't think we'll get too many ancient-era European civs (Romans, Greeks, maybe Goths, Celts in a DLC sooner or later if not on release, but that is pretty much it). So an ancient-era TSL start would probably result in a much less crowded Europe than a Civ6 TSL start

I agree, that could work for a lot of Civs, not sure how they would handle America (the US), though (see my opening post).

 

[Gedemon]

I agree, that could work for a lot of Civs, not sure how they would handle America (the US), though (see my opening post).

that's a problem only if there are no other choices I suppose and if the game's moddable enough, maybe unlock the US by TSL only when it's a civ from another continent that own the position/region.

 

[uppi]

I agree, that could work for a lot of Civs, not sure how they would handle America (the US), though (see my opening post).

Depends a bit on what the exakt unlock conditions for America are. A "Have settlements on a different continent" condition might make America pop up in the right place (but it might not be a regional option, so the Ai might not go for it". A Celts-English-Americans AI might have colonies in America anyway, but if Romans-Normans-Americans is a regional/historical option it may very well end up somewhere else.

Edit: And if you are willing to divert from the base game rules, requiring settlements on America itself should be easy enough

 

[Zaarin]

I suspect this is probably something modders will be able to more creatively support than official maps. (I admit that TSL never really appealed to me until Civ6, and then only because I found it amusing to stuff every Balkan and Balkan-adjacent civ into the game while I built happily and quietly in East Asia or the New World. )

 

[Hajee]

Yes.

I see 3 possibilities:

1) You restrict a game to just 1 Age thereby eliminating civ switching altogether. A game could feature a real Earth map with TSL locations for that specific Age. So for example, you play an Antiquity only game with Antiquity civ's TSL or you play an Exploration only game with Exploration civ's TSL. We know the base game will allow one Age games so TSL for this will be possible.
2) You start with TSL locations in the Antiquity Age and then let things "play out". So in the Exploration Age and then Modern Age, the civs would not be in their TSL locations anymore. But that would just be the "evolution" of the empires in this alternate history. This will also be possible since it just requires TSL at the start and the rest of the game would play with normal base game rules.
3) You start with TSL locations in the Antiquity Age. When changing to Exploration Age, you reset the map, to stay in the TSL location for the new civ. When changing to Modern Age, you reset the map again, to stay in the TSL location for the new civ. We know the map will expand for each Age. But this might require mods to change the map each Age to stay with TSL locations for new civs.

#1 and #2 are already possible now with the base game. So I think they are the most likely ways that Firaxis will do TSL.

I hate that

Why must I restrict my game to one age to play tsl

 

[SupremacyKing2]

I hate that

Why must I restrict my game to one age to play tsl

You don't. I said it was 1 possible way to do TSL. It is not the only way to do TSL.

 

[I was NC]

Did I miss someone saying the easy, obvious solution: don't force civs to switch? Everyone just keeps playing through these new ages. Understood switching is what the current designers think is so neat about 7, but they don't have to make it mandatory. Compared to hexes, 1UPT, or districts (other major changes), it's optional as a gameplay choice.

If they insist on deciding something for us purchasers, make it new leaders. There's no shortage of historical figures. Or heck, just make up people.

FYI, my recent 6 games have been Aztec, Incans, Songhai, Ethiopia, Zulu, Romans (what I play), Vikings, Persia, Russia, Scythia, Mongols, India, China, Japan, Kymer, and Indonesia. Everyone has at least some room to start. I also control city states and remove some natural wonders.

Also, since we're on the same thread, thank you Gedemon for the TSL maps. You've added many hours of happiness to my life.

 

[SupremacyKing2]

Did I miss someone saying the easy, obvious solution: don't force civs to switch? Everyone just keeps playing through these new ages. Understood switching is what the current designers think is so neat about 7, but they don't have to make it mandatory. Compared to hexes, 1UPT, or districts (other major changes), it's optional as a gameplay choice.

Yes, you could disable civ switching. Also, make all civs available in Antiquity Age. That would be another way of doing TSL. But I suspect that the devs won't do this since civ switching is such a core part of civ7. Also, the civ abilities are designed for certain ages so they might not balance if you disable civ switching. For example, a Modern Age civ would likely have unique buildings and unique units that are only available in the Modern Age. But a mod might be able to implement this, if they wanted to offer a "classic" way of doing TSL.

 

[I was NC]

I suspect that the devs won't do this since civ switching is such a core part of civ7.

You're probably right, which is a real shame. I'm sympathetic to the apocryphal "they'd ask for a faster horse" concept, as happened with districts, but IMO ending properly playable TSL is too much to forgo. (As in none of the three options above would work for me.)