Will it be steam based?

[Sidewinder00Q]

If Civ 5 uses Steam, Firaxis can find another 50 dollars somewhere else. I will not ever use Steam again. The problem many have with Steam is that it in an invasive program that periodically rifles your computer for anything IT deems as suspect.

I stopped using Steam seven years ago before all this invasive software began, they decided that Counter-Strike was on my computer illegally and terminated its CD key. Despite my showering them with mail and email to the contrary, they simply told me tough, if I want to play CS again, I have to buy a new copy. I told them then to shove off.

I WILL NOT USE STEAM.

 

[Sherlock]

If Civ 5 uses Steam, Firaxis can find another 50 dollars somewhere else. I will not ever use Steam again. The problem many have with Steam is that it in an invasive program that periodically rifles your computer for anything IT deems as suspect.

I stopped using Steam seven years ago before all this invasive software began, they decided that Counter-Strike was on my computer illegally and terminated its CD key. Despite my showering them with mail and email to the contrary, they simply told me tough, if I want to play CS again, I have to buy a new copy. I told them then to shove off.

I WILL NOT USE STEAM.

Yeah, what exactly is Steam doing on your PC? Good luck finding out, they sure won't tell you and don't respond to emails with specific questions. I didn't buy 'Dawn of War 2' because it required steam. Ditto for 'Supreme Cmdr 2'. Fine, more time for CIV4.

Here are three good reasons for not buying from Steam: 'Origin', 'Microprose' and 'Spectrum Holobyte'. Game companys/publishers go belly up eventually. When Steam gets bought out or goes away for whatever reason all your games are gone. Meanwhile, I'm still playing 'Ascendancy' and 'X-Com' from 15 years ago.

 

[cspyr0]

If Civ 5 uses Steam, Firaxis can find another 50 dollars somewhere else. I will not ever use Steam again. The problem many have with Steam is that it in an invasive program that periodically rifles your computer for anything IT deems as suspect.

I stopped using Steam seven years ago before all this invasive software began, they decided that Counter-Strike was on my computer illegally and terminated its CD key. Despite my showering them with mail and email to the contrary, they simply told me tough, if I want to play CS again, I have to buy a new copy. I told them then to shove off.

I WILL NOT USE STEAM.

Is there evidence somewhere that Steam "rifles" through your computer? I'm seriously asking, because I'd like to know. As far as I know it only looks through your game folders that you've attached to it.

In any case, if you played Civ4 you dealt with Securom, which is quite a bit worse in my opinion. Until people began a class-action lawsuit consumers had no way of removing it unless they wanted to reinstall Windows. It also installed itself with higher privileges than an administrator account, which opens security holes. Worst of all it legitimately rifled through your computer - it would detect any virtual drives/emulation software (which are legal) and would refuse to run the game until you disabled them.

Non-steam Civ5 is definitely going to have something like this, so if you hate Steam you're going to hate the alternatives too.

 

[Chalks]

Yeah, what exactly is Steam doing on your PC? Good luck finding out, they sure won't tell you and don't respond to emails with specific questions. I didn't buy 'Dawn of War 2' because it required steam. Ditto for 'Supreme Cmdr 2'. Fine, more time for CIV4.

Did you email firaxis to ask them what the copy protection on Civ 4 does to your PC?

Did they reply?

What did they say?

Or did your tinfoil hat slip off during that part of the thought process?

Companies not explaining the functionality of their copy protection methods to the public. What a shocker.

 

[deanej]

Civ4 uses Safedisc, but all other 2K titles (including all other Firaxis games, both before and after) do use SecuRom.

 

[CanuckSoldier]

Did you email firaxis to ask them what the copy protection on Civ 4 does to your PC?

Did they reply?

What did they say?

Or did your tinfoil hat slip off during that part of the thought process?

Companies not explaining the functionality of their copy protection methods to the public. What a shocker.

Hmmm, it's pretty easy to do a google search and find out what Safedisk does, and while it is a bit of a pain it is nothing more than a CD/DVD check. And unlike anything Steam seems to be doing. Safedisk is not collecting data on you or forcing you to be connected to the internet. So I think we are talking about two completly different levels of copy protection here. One is a reasonable business decision and one is not.

And if you don't like the idea of D/Ling a CD patch, you can always just use disk image and a utility like Daemon Tools to simulate Safedisk 4 copy protection. That is what I did before the 3.19 official patch that removed the DRM for BTS.

CS

 

[Chalks]

Hmmm, it's pretty easy to do a google search and find out what Safedisk does, and while it is a bit of a pain it is nothing more than a CD/DVD check. And unlike anything Steam seems to be doing. Safedisk is not collecting data on you or forcing you to be connected to the internet. So I think we are talking about two completly different levels of copy protection here. One is a reasonable business decision and one is not.

And if you don't like the idea of D/Ling a CD patch, you can always just use disk image and a utility like Daemon Tools to simulate Safedisk 4 copy protection. That is what I did before the 3.19 official patch that removed the DRM for BTS.

CS

It's strange how you say that safedisk is a "reasonable business decision", then go on to tell me how easy it is to remove.

Games companies know that CD check based DRM is no DRM at all, and I'm not sure how you can qualify a complete absence of copy protection as a "reasonable business decision".

It's pretty clear that game publishers can't either, since online activation is the new CD check these days - and Steam is one of the least intrusive.

For Civ 5 to come out with no online activation would put it significantly behind the times. Given that, it's just a case of what vendor you want your online DRM to come from.

 

[Sherlock]

If Civ 5 uses Steam, Firaxis can find another 50 dollars somewhere else. I will not ever use Steam again. The problem many have with Steam is that it in an invasive program that periodically rifles your computer for anything IT deems as suspect.

I stopped using Steam seven years ago before all this invasive software began, they decided that Counter-Strike was on my computer illegally and terminated its CD key. Despite my showering them with mail and email to the contrary, they simply told me tough, if I want to play CS again, I have to buy a new copy. I told them then to shove off.

I WILL NOT USE STEAM.

Had you bought Counter-Strike from them? Or was it a boxed copy? If Steam can up and decide to delete software other than that which is purchased from Steam that is absolutely awful.

 

[CanuckSoldier]

It's strange how you say that safedisk is a "reasonable business decision", then go on to tell me how easy it is to remove.

Games companies know that CD check based DRM is no DRM at all, and I'm not sure how you can qualify a complete absence of copy protection as a "reasonable business decision".

It's pretty clear that game publishers can't either, since online activation is the new CD check these days - and Steam is one of the least intrusive.

For Civ 5 to come out with no online activation would put it significantly behind the times. Given that, it's just a case of what vendor you want your online DRM to come from.

Well if Steam is "less intrusive" than other activation schemes, I would hate to see what the others are doing. Because no one that legally owns a game should have to be online to play it, there are still parts of this planet without constantly on HS internet access.

And I would except online activation, if they didn't try to illegally colllect data from my computer and were upfront about what there software was doing and what it is not doing. And of course they need proactive customer support to deal fairly with people that have issues with the DRM and have a legit copy of the software. I own multiple copies of every version and expansion of Civ ever released. And I have the legal right to play them, whether or not I am online or even if the company goes under.

So while I respect companies rights to protect their IP, they don't have the right to do it at the expense of the rights of the customer to enjoy the game they paid cash for.

CS

 

[Lord Tirian]

Well if Steam is "less intrusive" than other activation schemes, I would hate to see what the others are doing. Because no one that legally owns a game should have to be online to play it, there are still parts of this planet without constantly on HS internet access.

Look up the copy protection of Assassin's Creed II. It requires you to be online all the time and the game apparently pauses if it loses the connection to the Ubisoft server, see here.

Compared to that, Steam is not intrusive at all, since it only requires one singular verification per install and at least gives you something in return - the ability to play and re-download your game without a disk.

Cheers, LT.

 

[Chalks]

And I would except online activation, if they didn't try to illegally colllect data from my computer and were upfront about what there software was doing and what it is not doing.

The Steams!! They are in your datas illegally reading your binarys!!"11!

Seriously? Illegally collecting data? Really? Did you just say that? Well why don't you phone the police then and have them stop doing all the illegal stuff that you totally didn't just make up?

Anyway, I've been beaten to it, but I may as well reiterate - you really need to read up on the subject of bad DRM: http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2010/02/17/you-maniacs/

 

[CanuckSoldier]

Look up the copy protection of Assassin's Creed II. It requires you to be online all the time and the game apparently pauses if it loses the connection to the Ubisoft server, see here.

Compared to that, Steam is not intrusive at all, since it only requires one singular verification per install and at least gives you something in return - the ability to play and re-download your game without a disk.

Cheers, LT.

Thanks I'll have a look at what bad really is, and personally I have no intention of using Steam(or D2D for that matter) to purchase a game, I like having a box copy. So for me it's not about digital distribution but about the after purchase DRM.

CS

 

[Afforess]

If Civ 5 uses Steam, Firaxis can find another 50 dollars somewhere else. I will not ever use Steam again. The problem many have with Steam is that it in an invasive program that periodically rifles your computer for anything IT deems as suspect.

I stopped using Steam seven years ago before all this invasive software began, they decided that Counter-Strike was on my computer illegally and terminated its CD key. Despite my showering them with mail and email to the contrary, they simply told me tough, if I want to play CS again, I have to buy a new copy. I told them then to shove off.

I WILL NOT USE STEAM.

I feel your pain, having lost other games for non-steam reasons, but seriously, anecdotal evidence is anecdotal.

 

[Mael Sechlainn]

I think I should clear some things up.
First steam only needs to be online the once, you let the game update and once its all down you just stick into offline mode in which no internet connection is needed.
second steam does NOT riffle through your computer, the only scan it every does is one which it asks you for then it just just scans your computer to see what hardware you have for marketing purposes.

 

[Modiga-Disabled]

* As pointed out, it isn't always cheaper, depending on your region. Also I believe it's possible to allow region locking for games. Indeed, be careful of doing this:

Otherwise you risk being locked out (e.g., http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Orange_Box#Region-specific_versions ).

The region locking is restricted to the CD-keys of hard copies. It's to stop people buying copies of the game really cheaply in those countries with majorly reduced prices and then selling the CD-keys online to people in the regions of the world with higher prices. These copies state clearly on the box that they are restricted a region and this doesn't apply to purchases made on Steam itself.

Setting your Steam store to a different country's page and then buying the game won't work. Your location is checked via other means than the store page you're using. If you do somehow manage to purchase the game somewhere cheaper, region locking isn't going to kick in and lock you out. Not that I'm saying you'll be in the clear; I don't know whether doing that could be viewed as fraud or something.

The Steams!! They are in your datas illegally reading your binarys!!"11!

Seriously? Illegally collecting data? Really? Did you just say that? Well why don't you phone the police then and have them stop doing all the illegal stuff that you totally didn't just make up?

Anyway, I've been beaten to it, but I may as well reiterate - you really need to read up on the subject of bad DRM: http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2010/02/17/you-maniacs/

The irony is saying their activities are illegal could easily be classed as libel, which could get one in trouble with the law, or at least a civil suit. Not that anyone is likely to care.

 

[Modiga-Disabled]

Can I not delete my own post?

(or am I just blind?)

 

[azzaman333]

<snip>
But you're still betting on them staying around, and not shutting down any activation.

Yes, exactly.

But with current games, presumably the companies would secure alternative distribution possibilities, and maybe offer something to users. If you're lucky. But no chance for older games.

You can back up all steam games onto a disc, last time I checked.

If Civ 5 uses Steam, Firaxis can find another 50 dollars somewhere else. I will not ever use Steam again. The problem many have with Steam is that it in an invasive program that periodically rifles your computer for anything IT deems as suspect.

I stopped using Steam seven years ago before all this invasive software began, they decided that Counter-Strike was on my computer illegally and terminated its CD key. Despite my showering them with mail and email to the contrary, they simply told me tough, if I want to play CS again, I have to buy a new copy. I told them then to shove off.

I WILL NOT USE STEAM.

Not to say that valve can't make mistakes, but I would trust their measures overs you.

Well if Steam is "less intrusive" than other activation schemes, I would hate to see what the others are doing. Because no one that legally owns a game should have to be online to play it, there are still parts of this planet without constantly on HS internet access.

And I would except online activation, if they didn't try to illegally colllect data from my computer and were upfront about what there software was doing and what it is not doing. And of course they need proactive customer support to deal fairly with people that have issues with the DRM and have a legit copy of the software. I own multiple copies of every version and expansion of Civ ever released. And I have the legal right to play them, whether or not I am online or even if the company goes under.

So while I respect companies rights to protect their IP, they don't have the right to do it at the expense of the rights of the customer to enjoy the game they paid cash for.

CS

As has been stated many times, you do NOT have to be connected to the internet to play games on steam.

I also doubt that steam collects data from your computer without your permission.

 

[Badesumofu]

The criticism here is not digital distribution, but DRM - Digital "Rights" (their rights, not yours) Management. Digital distribution may be a future, but I sure hope that Digital Restrictions, er Rights Management isn't the future.

* As pointed out, it isn't always cheaper, depending on your region. Also I believe it's possible to allow region locking for games. Indeed, be careful of doing this:

Otherwise you risk being locked out (e.g., http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Orange_Box#Region-specific_versions ).

Dragon Age and Mass Effect 2 are both $50 on the Australian Steam store right now. In the case of DA that's less than half the price in EB Games. ME is half the EB price, 4/9ths of the JB price.

* Patches are installed whether you want them or not (e.g., issues such as incompatibilities or increasing the requirements).

This is simply false. You can turn off auto-update.

* No resale is possible.

The ability to re-sell both ME2 and DA is limited regardless. I think you'll start to see more companies inculde parts of their games as free DLC to people who buy new copies. In any case, it can be argued that this is a good thing, used games hurt developpers nearly as much as piracy. How many places will even do trade-ins for PC games anyway?

* Is it true that some games can have activation limits, so you can only install or reinstall a number of times?

It is true, but it's nothing to do with Steam. Steam is one of the least restrictive forms of DRM around. By default, you may download and redownload your games as many times as you want, and onto as many machines as you want. You can also back them up on DVDs or removeable storage.

Of course, some games have 3rd party DRM, but in those cases you have to deal with the DRM if you get a boxed copy anyway.

* On a similar note, good luck with (re)installing if the activation servers are no longer available. There have been numerous cases of DRM system failing, when the system is closed down for whatever reason:

But you're still betting on them staying around, and not shutting down any activation.

Yes, exactly.

But with current games, presumably the companies would secure alternative distribution possibilities, and maybe offer something to users. If you're lucky. But no chance for older games.

I have legal backups of all my Steam games. Not a problem. Again, for those who missed this: You can burn install disks for your Steam games.

Again, nearly all the problems people percieve with steam are based on predjudices, misconceptions, or outright falsehoods.

 

[negZero]

If Civ 5 uses Steam, Firaxis can find another 50 dollars somewhere else. I will not ever use Steam again. The problem many have with Steam is that it in an invasive program that periodically rifles your computer for anything IT deems as suspect.

I stopped using Steam seven years ago before all this invasive software began, they decided that Counter-Strike was on my computer illegally and terminated its CD key. Despite my showering them with mail and email to the contrary, they simply told me tough, if I want to play CS again, I have to buy a new copy. I told them then to shove off.

I WILL NOT USE STEAM.

Okay your just lying here or something else happen here. I've almost every Virtual Disc program known to man, dencrypters, No-CD cracks, basically my computer is filled to the brim with pirating tools and never been ban.

Yeah, what exactly is Steam doing on your PC? Good luck finding out, they sure won't tell you and don't respond to emails with specific questions. I didn't buy 'Dawn of War 2' because it required steam. Ditto for 'Supreme Cmdr 2'. Fine, more time for CIV4.

Here are three good reasons for not buying from Steam: 'Origin', 'Microprose' and 'Spectrum Holobyte'. Game companys/publishers go belly up eventually. When Steam gets bought out or goes away for whatever reason all your games are gone. Meanwhile, I'm still playing 'Ascendancy' and 'X-Com' from 15 years ago.

First everything that Steam does has been found and figured out till death, you can't hid something on computer. Second Valve has been on record that it would unlock all games once its gone belly up.

Also to the guy on reselling buy a new EA game you notice they are coming up with ways to screw that industry over

Really Steams do your homework before you even try to post something, you just make yourself look like an idiot.

 

[Tamed]

If Civ 5 uses Steam, Firaxis can find another 50 dollars somewhere else. I will not ever use Steam again. The problem many have with Steam is that it in an invasive program that periodically rifles your computer for anything IT deems as suspect.

I stopped using Steam seven years ago before all this invasive software began, they decided that Counter-Strike was on my computer illegally and terminated its CD key. Despite my showering them with mail and email to the contrary, they simply told me tough, if I want to play CS again, I have to buy a new copy. I told them then to shove off.

I WILL NOT USE STEAM.

Probably the most ignorant post I have ever read. Why are so many Civ users so ignorant of Steam? There's this weird stigma amongst the 30-40 year old gamer crowd that they absolutely hate Steam.