[GS] Will Maori be the worst Civ whatsoever?

[Archon_Wing]

Yeah, I don't mind some civs being a little better or a little worse, or the balance being off in extreme cases (OMG Norway is horrible in an inland sea map), but yes, general/overall balance does matter even in SP.

But I mean, someone has to be the worst civ, and I don't think the Maori are going to be that civ. I do think Korea needs to be toned down a little (even starting their campus at +3 instead of +4 might be enough). And I do think chopping needs to be toned down, although that's a general game balance issue, not a specific civ balance issue.

Indeed, something has to be the worst, but I think the gap can be minimized. If you look at Civ 6, and take out say, the top 5 and bottom 5, it actually looks pretty balanced. Civ design as a whole is very good. I would say this is better than some actual competitive games and better than the rest of the series.

Yes weak civs be weak, but they're hardly useless, and even civs considered weak like Spain and India and even England have things that make it look like anything but. Almost every civ will look very powerful on a good map and very few civs I actually consider useless.... people would disagree anyways.

 

[Navelgazer]

So if chopping ≠ harvesting, and Mãori* are only prevented from harvesting (and, well, from gaining GW, which seems like a much bigger impediment to the way I normally play) then they still look very interesting and powerful. I don't doubt that I play sub-optimally in a lot of ways, but in my experience Production is King, and improving bonus resources provides a lot of production. Mãori has tons ofother bonuses above and beyond these limitations. I understand the people who just can't even with Kongo, or Venice, but I love this type of Civ. Interesting playstyles keep the game alive.

*The ˜ is as close as I can get to the correct diacritic on mac, sorry.

 

[Victoria]

Balance, pah. Norway is screwed, England was effectively nerfed again, Georgia and Spain are damn bad.... they have never ever cared about balance. The fact they can continue to nerf England makes me wonder just how good their play testers are, and it’s not like they gave Vicky much that made sense anyway. and they say things like the maoris were too strong and had to tone them down while Lily quite rightly says the resource nonchop makes them crap.
Trying to nerf the chop with global warming is a joke, good players chop too fast for it to matter... and Even a few disaster do not really badly effect a city with a campus running a project.

 

[Kimiimaro]

England was effectively nerfed again

Well, they're based in the United States of America, and Americans fought the British for their independence... Maybe that's their little revenge to the British Empire. But I don't believe that the English civilisation is quite in a pickle yet. There are worse, like mentioned Georgia. Though I personally believe that there is no Civilisation bad enough to be unable to win the game in the victory condition they choose to pursuit. Unless it's Kongo going for religious victory, of course.

However, we don't know yet much about the features of the expansion pack, so while the military engineer is trash now, its bonus could be rather useful after they'll come out. I believe it was mentioned that military engineers build the railroads, and maybe railroads carry some nice meaty bonuses. Though, of course, I may be wrong.

I'm quite saddened by the decision to remove the British Museum tho. Yes, I know, in game, it's the English Empire, not British, and it was sort of buggy in the way that capturing an English city gave you the upgraded museum, but it was still a rather original and a fun ability.

But nobody is bound to read my notes or listen to me. As I said (well, wrote) in this very thread earlier, I'm just a peasant preferring tall games who dislikes chopping and harvesting and keeps playing on King difficulty.

 

[pgm123]

Balance, pah. Norway is screwed,

Screwed seems a bit extreme. Overseas trade routes are mildly more valuable. I'd like to see Norway get a bit more because they were weak to start with, but they got a mild boost.

 

[Kimiimaro]

Just coming here from the Maori livestream to announce that chopping has been nerfed. Chop production overflow has been removed from the game.

 

[Siptah]

Screwed seems a bit extreme. Overseas trade routes are mildly more valuable. I'd like to see Norway get a bit more because they were weak to start with, but they got a mild boost.

They don't need a boost. They are all about dominating the waters. They get increased production towards ships and a unique naval unit. They are as good as the Maori. Well, it's hard to compare them directly, anyway.

- memory minutes from Ed's talk on today's stream

 

[Pietato]

The chopping nerf hurts them the hardest. Poor Norway...

 

[Gaonac'h]

Just coming here from the Maori livestream to announce that chopping has been nerfed. Chop production overflow has been removed from the game.

That's more a like a bug fix than a nerf, chops still seems way stronger than improvements.
I also wonder if they fixed the overflow of science/culture bug when triggering eurekas.

 

[Archon_Wing]

Maybe they'll be forced to actually design Norway properly.

 

[pgm123]

- memory minutes from Ed's talk on today's stream

I think it's fairly true that Norway dominates the waters. The problem is that's not that important. I heard and was influenced by Ed's comments, though.

My simple naval combat buff: naval melee units can heal adjacent land units (i.e. supply them). Even if you make that a promotion, it would encourage building them.

 

[Disgustipated]

My biggest problem with Norway is sometimes melee combat ships aren't enough. If a city has only 1 tile open to sea, it may heal faster than you can attack it. And quadremes don't have the range. 2 tiles open to sea is doable, but perhaps not on higher difficulty levels.

And that's not including the massive loyalty problems from taking coastal cities. Yes they do need a buff.

 

[pgm123]

My biggest problem with Norway is sometimes melee combat ships aren't enough.

To be fair, naval melee ships shouldn't be enough. I think navies need a boost in general both in terms of effectiveness and in terms of the AI using them, but Norway needs some other buffs too. Not sure what they'd be, unfortunately.

 

[Siptah]

I think navies need a boost in general both in terms of effectiveness and in terms of the AI using them.

Careful what you wish for. I think that naval units are strong enough and rather too strong, actually. Two frigates can usually take down city walls in a single turn, and if not, have a third one close by and a caravel behind to take the city. This works very good on coastal cities even in multiplayer. Due to the fast movement, the other player might not even see your boats the turn before. With land units, it's much harder to surprise attack someone and it's even more harder to strike at a place he/she isn't suspecting it.

To the second part: yes, absolutely.

 

[UWHabs]

Careful what you wish for. I think that naval units are strong enough and rather too strong, actually. Two frigates can usually take down city walls in a single turn, and if not, have a third one close by and a caravel behind to take the city. This works very good on coastal cities even in multiplayer. Due to the fast movement, the other player might not even see your boats the turn before. With land units, it's much harder to surprise attack someone and it's even more harder to strike at a place he/she isn't suspecting it.

To the second part: yes, absolutely.

Once you get Frigate+, then yeah, navies are nice. I've had fun with battleships in the past too, with their extra range they just destroy cities.

But early games it's really slow. The fact that quadriremes only have a range of 1 means that they don't really help in taking out cities, and that they cost twice what an archer cost just makes it all the more annoying. By the time you get quads, they should have a range of 2 and a ranged strength of at least 35, maybe more, for the price you pay (although obviously I wouldn't want barb ships being that strong).

 

[Kimiimaro]

I remember destroying the Spanish Empire as Germany in my domination game. I had a large battleship army, and the Spanish cities were falling in 2-3 turns. Their Empire was mine in not even 20 turns.

 

[Phrozen]

To be fair, naval melee ships shouldn't be enough. I think navies need a boost in general both in terms of effectiveness and in terms of the AI using them, but Norway needs some other buffs too. Not sure what they'd be, unfortunately.

A good buff for Norway to help their supposed play style would be to allow them to pillage without having to declare war. They will still get grievances for it but won't have to fully declare war.

 

[Seek]

As mentioned, lack of harvesting is a little unfortunate, but generally only is a handful of cases. The only way this will really drop them down is if the ability prevents you from placing wonders or districts over bonus resources. In that case, then yeah, they're going to have a lot of trouble as they'll miss out on the best campus spots due to some sheep roaming those fields.

Looks like bonus resources do indeed block district placement. (And I checked, AH was researched.)
29:48 on the YT video:

 

[darkace77450]

The fact they can continue to nerf England

I think it's premature to cry nerf when we don't know how many of the industrial era-features (power, etc) will work.

Looks like bonus resources do indeed block district placement. (And I checked, AH was researched.)
29:48 on the YT video:

I really hope this is something modders can fix. I can live without harvesting, but not being able to place districts where I want them is going to sour my experience with what looks like an otherwise fun civ.

 

[NukeAJS]

If Maori get boned it will be because they were unable to find a good starting city. If you've watched the live stream, it seems like that is a very real problem they could have.

On the other hand, they could find a great starting spot immediately/very early; in which case they'll probably have the strongest start in the game -- free worker, woods and jungle have extra production (2F3P jungles ... yummy) and a super-palace.

Lastly, again from the live stream, the resource production overflow "feature" will get nerfed. You'll only get the bonus production if what you're building next is affected frohave probablm what you just chopped. In other words, if you have the +100% defensive structures policy card, wait until walls are one turn from finishing, and then chop -- any extra production via the +100% to walls can only be applied to the production of something that would also benefit from the +100% card. In this case, only building a castle after walls would get the full benefit.

Meaning, Magnus and his chopping will still be useful (his bonus applies to anything queued up next because his bonus isn't specific to something). Rome spamming legions with Magnus+Agoge card will still work the same (as would Magnus+any applicable unit card). But you will no longer be able to use limes, magnus, wait until one turn left on walls, chop, and then queue three buildings up and finish them turn after turn after turn. You'll only get Magnus's bonus (in this case, there would be no reason to wait until there's one turn left, it'd be better to chop the walls up sooner and not later).

This means that not being able to harvest features is still a handicap, but since the production overflow "feature" (exploit) will be removed, it's not as big of a handicap because the exploit will be fixed.