Win by peaceful space race

Paxel

Chieftain
Joined
Oct 22, 2012
Messages
39
Hello, some months ago I wrote an article about this matter, for immortal level. Now, after having win and lost many other games I'm able to give a better advice.
For "peaceful" I mean that you don't attack anyone to get his cities, but sometimes you will have to fight anyway, for defensive wars, or just to stop a AI cultural win (in 20% of all games, if you cannot bribe anyone).

Leaders.
Since I always use cottage economy the best leaders are Organized or Financial. They are equal. My second preferred trait is Creative, so I usually choose Zara or Willhelm, but any other is fine (I like Napoleon as well for the +2 happy). If I choose Org + Fin (Darius) well ... I almost always win, he's really too powerful, I've planned to use it for Deity, but for Immortal it's not fun.

Win statistics with Cre + Org/Fin are:
8 cities: 40 %
9 cities: 60 %
10 cities: 65 %
11 cities: 70 %

as you can see there is not much difference between 9 or 11, because you loose when you have Pacal/Mansa with 13+ cities or a midtecher with 15+ cities. In this case you must bribe/disturb/disrupt him since the beginning of the game.

Bad luck, boxed.
If you're boxed (it happens in 25% of all games), then you will need a quick war to liberate yourself. If you are boxed in 2-3 cities go horse archer, in 4-5 go catapults, in 6-7 go rifles (without draft or whip, which will destroy your economy. A stack of 4 trebs, 8 promoted rifles from muskets, plus other 10-15 units it's usually enough to take those 2-3 cities you miss). Don't go cuiraissers because you cannot afford to lose time to research military tradition and music. Cannons could be used too.

Cities.
All my cities are hybrid, they have cottages to support the research. I sometimes have a production city if I have HE or I have to build may units for defense. The GPfarm (if any) must contribute to research as well. Whipping is usually bad, (every citizen is useful on cottages) but if you are not Creative then it's really useful at the beginning of the game.
At every turn there should always a city which builds units (rotate them if you have not the HE) and 1-2 which build Wealth (again rotate them). Don't build buildings immediately once they are available, but evaluate how many turns they will ROI.

Initial research.
This is not different from classic liberalism race, if you meet only 2-3 civs then after Pottery/Writing go Math/Currency/CoL/CS/Paper/Edu(half bulb)/Liberalism get all the rest via trading. If you meet 4+ civs and/or you have marble the go Aes and great library.
Verify: before turn 80 your capitol must have two scientists which in 17 turns will create a GS for the Academy. Meanwhile the capitol cottages must worked by adiacent cities. Before turn 100, another city must have two scientist to build the second GS for the half education bulb. The capitol will stop the scientists after the academy.
Verify: at Immortal you will get Liberalism between turn 140-160.
If you have marble choose Nationalism and TajMahal as free tech, otherwise if you have Machinery you may evaluate Printing Press, which is better for trades.

Defensive wars.
You should always have a small stack ready to go to threatened city. Place it in the middle between border cities and verify that via roads it can reach them in 2-3 turns.

After Lib.
I usually go Economics for the free great marchant, and democracy for statue of liberty (build or fail gold). I usually skip Communism. Once I get democracy I usually start the first golden age to switch to: Universal Suffrage / Emancipation / FreeMarket / FreeReligion. US is required for production, no question asked.
Then I usually go Rifling for defence, then Biology. The I usually go to Railroad, for the production bonus. You workers must be ready on mines and lumbermills to build the railroad when it becomes available.

Happiness.
US may ruin your happiness. To save yourself every city must have two religions and two temples (you may need missionaries) and maybe a forest preserve.

Trades.
Never trade with the tech leader, never trade a tech if it's missed by the tech leader. If the leader as a tech which you need and nobody else have it, research it for the 5% bonus.

Verify.
At 1600AD you will make 1000 beakers/turn (1150 with Darius), at 1800AD 1200 b/t (1350 with Darius). Remember: There should be always a city which builds Wealth, rotate it.

Space race.
All my races are limited by research, not production (thanks to US), so when I research my last tech all the parts are ready yet. With 9 cities I usually launch at turn 340.
my path is:
Plastics, also for 3GD (if I have good production or a GE), Computers for Internet, then Satellites for Apollo (I will not be the first), then Composites or SuperConductors so that I have something to build during research, then I go straight to Fusion and start the second Golden Age with the free GE, then I research (or get it via internet) what is remaining, usually Genetics.

Espionage.
I never use the slider to increase it, but I use the free points for minor missions. In the last 20 turns I alway do counterespionage to prevent damages at my spaceship parts, while I usually allow it at the beginning of the space race, to understand who is doing it (you can see the -2000 in the espionage window), usually it's the closest civ. Another interesting mission is to sabotage towns in the tech leader. You spend zero or 40 hammers to inflict a 300 beakers damage: 3 commerce (1 + 2 freespeech) * 20 turns with emancipation * 3 science muliplies / 0.65 (AI bonus at immortal). Plus the production damage if he has US. Do that only if you are desperate.

Burocracy vs Free Speech
With this setup, before 1800AD, Bur is always better.
After 1800 AD Bur is better with Organized. Free speech will be better with non-Org (+50 beakers per turn) but it does not worth a turn of anarchy.
State property is so so, but it does not worth a turn of anarchy. The reduced mainteinance is compensated by the extra trade route of free market, and the 3-4% production bonus does not matter. It may be useful depending how many watermills or workshop you built.

GP farm
In my last games I started to use a hybrid gpfarm, usually it's a coastal city with a fish (you need a 6 food) or just any other city with a 5 food plus an extra farm on grassland.
As written above, before turn 100 it starts with two scientist. Then I start to build a forge to obtain 2 SC + 1 ENG. Then National Epic to double its production. Then Nation Park to obtain other 2-3 specialist from forests and maybe an industrial park for a free engineer. This gives 40 points per turn. Remember that at the end I need a non-engineer for the second golden age. This city must work also some cottages for research.
I usually cannot build a "true" GPfarm with 2 foods, because if I have two foods I prefer to make two cities.
 
With 9 cities I usually launch at turn 340.

On normal speed? 340 is way to late, even with only 9 cities, 300 should be fairly standard... I typically launch around turn 260, tho admittedly usually rex to closer to 15 cities.

Cities.
All my cities are hybrid, they have cottages to support the research.

That is not optimum.

I sometimes have a production city if I have HE or I have to build may units for defense. The GPfarm (if any) must contribute to research as well. Whipping is usually bad, (every citizen is useful on cottages) but if you are not Creative then it's really useful at the beginning of the game.

This sounds like you are two cottaged focus. The GP-farm certainly should not have any... Indeed, outside the capital, they should be rare.

At every turn there should always a city which builds units (rotate them if you have not the HE) and 1-2 which build Wealth (again rotate them). Don't build buildings immediately once they are available, but evaluate how many turns they will ROI.

This sounds like more millitary than you need with good diplomacy.

After Lib.
I usually go Economics for the free great marchant, and democracy for statue of liberty (build or fail gold).

The SoL costs 750 hammers to build (with copper), and democracy is a tech detour (staying in representation is almost always better) of what, 4500 beakers... Hammers are worth a bit more than beakers... Say, that is a 5K beaker investment. At 10 cities, you get back 60 beakers a turn. It takes ~85 turns to pay back. The game should be over by then. Not a good investemnet.

I usually skip Communism. Once I get democracy I usually start the first golden age to switch to: Universal Suffrage / Emancipation / FreeMarket / FreeReligion. US is required for production, no question asked.

Maybe you should be asking questions... I hardly ever convert to US before I at least have fussion researched, and usually only after I have ALL techs in.

Happiness.
US may ruin your happiness. To save yourself every city must have two religions and two temples (you may need missionaries) and maybe a forest preserve.

Other than in your national park city, there should NOT be any forrest on the map at this stage of the game.

Never trade with the tech leader

That is so wrong! Always trade with the tech leader! You need to be sriving global tech pace, not supressing it.

Verify.
At 1600AD you will make 1000 beakers/turn (1150 with Darius), at 1800AD 1200 b/t (1350 with Darius). Remember: There should be always a city which builds Wealth, rotate it.

At 1800, if you have not launched yet, you should be in the 2K beaker per turn range.

Space race.
All my races are limited by research, not production (thanks to US), so when I research my last tech all the parts are ready yet.

Then you are building them too early. You should time them to finish at the same time as the research. Otherwise, you are wasting hammers that could go into wealth and research.

my path is:
Plastics, also for 3GD (if I have good production or a GE)

At 9 cities, even with a GE, 3GD is not a good investment. It delays power way too much, for very little hammer savings.

, Computers for Internet, then Satellites for Apollo (I will not be the first), then Composites or SuperConductors so that I have something to build during research, then I go straight to Fusion and start the second Golden Age with the free GE, then I research (or get it via internet) what is remaining, usually Genetics.

You should try superconductors before satellites... Indeed, I usually go superconducters before even things like combustion or electricity.

Remember that at the end I need a non-engineer for the second golden age.

You will get better overall results if you try for 3 golden ages (in addition to the Taj one if you are first to nationalism)

This city must work also some cottages for research.

Aboslutly not.

I usually cannot build a "true" GPfarm with 2 foods, because if I have two foods I prefer to make two cities.

Why?? On most maps, even on immortal, you can corner enough land to get at least 12 cities without having to limit your cities to 1 food source.
 
On normal speed? 340 is way to late, even with only 9 cities, 300 should be fairly standard... I typically launch around turn 260, tho admittedly usually rex to closer to 15 cities.

Didn't you read "peaceful" space race?
If you arrive to 15 cities via war then the game it's too easy...

The philosophy of peaceful is: go to war only if you're boxed in 7 cities or less, since the win would be impossible. If you have 8+ cities, war is forbidden.

If instead you peacefully get 12-15 cities in all games at fractal/normal and continents/normal then we live in different worlds.
 
Actually, your article allows for one break-out war (i.e. boxed in in 25% of games.)... If you include this, then yes for those cases, then yes, I get to 12 cities peacefully in almost all (I never said all) of my games on immortal level of lower...

Now, I tend to play almost exclusively forum games, so they are not exactly random fractal maps (indeed, I dont remember the last time one was actually fractal), so maybe that matters. Most of the games are normal size and speed and default number of AI.

Maybe you can post a typical game start for where you expand peacefully to about 9 cities, so that I can see what you mean... I suspect (pure guesses at this point, of course) that:

1- You are not putting up Helper-cities for the capital.
2- You are slightly slower at expanding than you ideally should be.
3- You are not taking advantage of post-biology farm-workshop fillers.
 
Peaceful space race?!? Destroy 'em all :satan::satan::satan::satan::satan::satan::satan::satan:

"
Agamemnon: Achilles makes a secret pact, and I have to honor it? What treason is this?! Consorting with the enemy, giving him twelve days of peace! Peace, peace! Their prince is dead. Their army is leaderless; this is the time to attack!
Nestor: Even with Hector gone, we have no way to breach their walls.
Agamemnon: I will smash their walls to the ground, if it costs me 40,000 Greeks. Hear me, Zeus! I will smash their walls to the ground! " :yup::yup::yup::yup::yup::yup:
 
........ Maybe you can post a typical game start for where you expand peacefully to about 9 cities, so that I can see what you mean... I suspect (pure guesses at this point, of course) that:
1- You are not putting up Helper-cities for the capital.
2- You are slightly slower at expanding than you ideally should be.
3- You are not taking advantage of post-biology farm-workshop fillers.

Ehm ... you are the one which should demonstrate that you can win a peaceful space race with only 9 cities (immortal, no strong leaders, no rerolling). You'll discover a whole different game where your suggestions do not work.

Peaceful space race?!? Destroy 'em all.

I agree! I started to do that because my girlfriend refused to play at a strategy game where you must kill someone to win. I wanted to demonstrate her that it's not necessary, indeed this is why Civ is not loved by females.
"In facebook strategy games you don't need to attack your neighbours".

Another reason is that I find a game/level challenging if I can win in 50-60% of all games. Using war it's possible to win in 90% of all cases, so it's not fun for me.
 
Ehm ... you are the one which should demonstrate that you can win a peaceful space race with only 9 cities (immortal, no strong leaders, no rerolling). You'll discover a whole different game where your suggestions do not work.

Ehm.... Why shoud I stop at 9 cities, instead of going peacefully to 12-15, which is what happens on most maps...

As to wether my "suggestions" work or not... My results speak for themselves, but if you prefer not to beleive them, and continue playing your way, that is certainly your option... If however you want to see evidence of peaceful space races that make 340 turns look absolutly glacial, feel free to check out the game of the month forum...
 
Leaders.
Since I always use cottage economy the best leaders are Organized or Financial. They are equal. My second preferred trait is Creative, so I usually choose Zara or Willhelm, but any other is fine (I like Napoleon as well for the +2 happy). If I choose Org + Fin (Darius) well ... I almost always win, he's really too powerful, I've planned to use it for Deity, but for Immortal it's not fun.

Financial and Organised are both very good traits. However, IMO Spiritual is also very good for a peaceful space race win. You save a lot of turns (and therefore gain :science: and production) for the instant civic switch. I play with unrestricted leaders and I usually choose The Netherlands because of the dykes.
 
Agreed, I would take Spiritual first... I might also take Philosophical above organized and financial. For a restricted leader, I would definitly take Gandhi as best, since is unique unit is clearly the best in the game in this format...
 
I agree with most of what Jastrow said. Your strategies are not bad, but it can be improved. Early rez and good trading partners are the key (any financial leader that shares your religion and, preferably, your civic would do). I would say good progress are along the lines of
- around 1000 B/T at 1100 AD (at break even)
- close to 2000 B/T at 1400 AD (at break even)
- finish last space-ship part before turn 280 (under 250 is great)

As long as your not in the tundra, you should easily win with 8+ cities
 
...
- around 1000 B/T at 1100 AD (at break even)
- close to 2000 B/T at 1400 AD (at break even)
- finish last space-ship part before turn 280 (under 250 is great)
As long as your not in the tundra, you should easily win with 8+ cities

Maybe we play at a different game, I would like to see a filesave with 2000 b/t at 1400AD. (or just 1600 AD..)

By the way, I'm glad the people starts to say that winning space races without war is easy. In the past there were many messages where all people agree that war is necessary, unless you go culture.
 
Ehm.... Why shoud I stop at 9 cities, instead of going peacefully to 12-15, which is what happens on most maps...

Well, using this logic, when you're boxed in 6 cities, you could go to 9-10 thanks to smart rex.

I though that it was obvious that my post covered worst-case scenarios.
 
Again, maybe you can just post a typical save where you can only get to 9 cities... I honestly do not remember the last time that I got seals of at less then 12, unless I was fully boxed in at 3.
 
Again, maybe you can just post a typical save where you can only get to 9 cities... I honestly do not remember the last time that I got seals of at less then 12, unless I was fully boxed in at 3.

Hello,
so the AI can box us in 3-7 but not in 8-9?

Starting a game at fractal/normal/normal/immortal my statistics are:

11-14 cities, 60% of all games. I did not covered the case 12+ because I consider the win quite easy, every strategy is good, you have plenty of resources and you surely don't need forests. You have room for a true GPFarm.

8-10 cities (partially boxed), 20% of all games. This is the most interesting cases for me. Lack of resources is a serious issue. I still think that CIV must be played with a different strategy for a peaceful space race.

7 or less (boxed), 20%. I've tried to win a peaceful space race with 6-7 cities, no way. Maybe one day I'll find a way and post here. I truly peaceful player would go culture, AP, diplomatic.

50% of starting locations are crappy (never reroll) usually worse than forum ones.

My post was only to encourage people who don't like go war (many girls too) that winning is possible too. If one thinks that "this is only a videogame", well wars and kills in movies are fake as well, but many people doesn't like them either.
 
As I said, I do not remember a map where I was not boxed in at 3, and did not manage to get to 12. I am sure such maps must exist, but I cannot think of one. Since you seem to think they are very common, I am simply asking that you post a typical example of such a map.
 
Agreed, I would take Spiritual first... I might also take Philosophical above organized and financial. For a restricted leader, I would definitly take Gandhi as best, since is unique unit is clearly the best in the game in this format...

Agreed, there's a lot to be said for philosophical. For a peaceful space win, any combination of Spiritual, Financial, Organised or Philosophical is good. Creative is also good, but I suspect not as strong as the other four.

With unrestricted leaders, you can choose India (for fast worker) with (for example) Elizabeth I or Ramesses II.
 
Space Ship victory is also called tech victory since it's technology - not production is a main bottleneck in such game.

Why stick to US then? I'd strongly recommend try Representation instead - unless you get some 100+ towns by 1000AD (which is really rare), Representation powered specialists will help you greatly to lunch earlier, IMO.
 
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