"Wokeist" - When people talk about progressivism without acquaintance

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Interesting to note that threads on social or cultural issues are approximately 25x as long as those about economic issues. Pattern holds across the web.

Woke to me is about threshold. If there’s a comment that’s ambiguous as to whether or not it is in some small way prejudiced, woke person is probably going to say it is. Very low threshold. Often this is done without consideration of proportion: attaching an -ism label to someone who has made smirked at a joke made in poor taste is not in order. Even if it is technically correct to attach an -ism, the level of social censure it may bring down outweighs any good it may do. Don Quixote tilting at windmills sorta thing.

It’s not just right wingers that use the term, either. I find it’s increasing in use amongst the left. I use it. Some Marxists(not Marxist myself) I debate on occasion use it. There are those who think that the focus on identity is misplaced and lacks the urgency of addressing other issues(economic, climate). Limited time and energy in the world: look how much space and time identity issues occupy. Could that be energy be better spent elsewhere?
 
Whats the point in discussing the economy? Everyone knows its rigged and unfair, and that the interests that make it so are too entrenched to budge.

Why does anyone assume that Reform is a limited resource that the Woke are misusing? Perhaps a model of that which has least friction against it begins moving first should be considered.
 
Whats the point in discussing the economy? Everyone knows its rigged and unfair, and that the interests that make it so are too entrenched to budge.

Why does anyone assume that Reform is a limited resource that the Woke are misusing? Perhaps a model of that which has least friction against it begins moving first should be considered.
Disagree entirely that powerful economic interests cannot be overruled. That’s defeatist. The people, when acting in consensus, are basically irresistible. I estimate an elite needs 30% of the population to continue to maintain ANY status quo. Below that, things historically get very shaky, very quickly.

And how is consensus built? Well, by talking about it, of course. In this respect, yeah, reform is a limited resource because time constrains what can realistically be discussed.
 
I mean, I'm repeatedly on-record as saying that words like "left", "right", "woke" and so on are incredibly shallow and reductive terms that often don't help debate at the level of nuance required for any given discussion. You know this already!
And still you don't really flinch at the use of "right-wing" to cover a spectrum and some measure of expectation (see below in your post) but you do at the use of "woke". I agree that these are somewhat shallow and reductive, but well, this is intrinsic to groups and subgroups. We still use them because they are useful and somewhat representative.
For example, to me it seems non-controversial to say that using "woke" unironically is a sign of right-wing opinion (at least in terms of culture, vs. something like economics where left-to-right is used but means pretty different things at times). Because it's frequently a pejorative label.
And that's where you're wrong, and a discussion that already happened earlier in the thread. "woke" is used pejoratively because the ideology that it covers and the most visible part of the people who supports it, are displeasing to a large amount of people, without being restricted to right-wing. The adamant affirmation it's inherently right-wing is to me just a sign of a bias expressed in circular reasoning (if people who uses woke are considered as right-wing, obviously only people considered as right-wing will use "woke", hence all people who will use "woke" will be right-wing...)
is this about the usage of woke or why some left-wing politics are bad

because you seem to be arguing about the latter, while my point is the former. my point is solely about usage & accuracy, not to prove that the left should always be vindicated or whatever
Why is it a problem if people associate the word usage with a political leaning?
None if it's just a fact and true. There is never a problem with fact nor with truth by themselves.
The problem is when it's false, biased or misused. Like here, where a pejorative is just automatically associated with both an adversarial political leaning and a suggestion of ignorance, which to me feels like just an excuse to dismiss criticism and not having to reflect on why all expressions associated with the same political subgroup (SJW first, woke now) have become pejorative - it's because of those all-powerful evil right-wingers, see, nothing to blame ourselves, we're just victims here !

THIS is what I take issue with.
And that's the difference here. From where I'm sitting, people who use it unironically are more often than not culturally right-wing. Some aren't. And people who are genuinely "woke" do not, generally, abuse the labels in the way you're criticising. Some do. The question is: how do I convince you of that? Even if it isn't the same for you in your life - how do I convince you that I (or Angst, or whoever) are arguing from experience, and not suffering from some kind of delusion?
Well, let's switch position : how do I convince you that people who identify as and/or fully support the "woke" ideology have a massive tendency to abuse -ism/-phobe, to apply them at the drop of a hat and to insult people at the slightest disagreement over the basis of the ideology ?
Because to me, you just have to open one of the countless threads talking about identity politics and it's pretty obvious. I mean, the LGBT news thread is probably one post out of three made of hurling "bigots" or somesuch at people who don't agree while they simply ask a question or make a point. If that doesn't convince you, what will ?
 
None if it's just a fact and true. There is never a problem with fact nor with truth by themselves.
The problem is when it's false, biased or misused. Like here, where a pejorative is just automatically associated with both an adversarial political leaning and a suggestion of ignorance, which to me feels like just an excuse to dismiss criticism and not having to reflect on why all expressions associated with the same political subgroup (SJW first, woke now) have become pejorative - it's because of those all-powerful evil right-wingers, see, nothing to blame ourselves, we're just victims here !

THIS is what I take issue with.

look it's just not very constructive. you could say you hate carpenters with a passion. i'd ask you why, or what the hell you're talking about. you'd say because carpenter policies support goldfish sales, and that is animal cruelty. after a while i realize you're a confused peta member, and you're not helping anyone calling people carpenters, unless your shpiel is to explicitly support structures that mislabel on purpose for the sake of power.

somewhere in the thread (i'm unsure whether it's you) someone brought up the fact that "woke" as a designation was still useful since the designated were well aware they were the ones being talked about. i mean, yea. if thousands of people literally point a finger at me and say i, as a carpenter, am ruining society, i'm well aware who they're talking about, even if i've never even built a single foot stool.

like how you group me/gorbles/w/e - like, you answered him, but you're ranting about whatever woke is - with people that throw around eg fascist and transphobe willy-nilly, as if that makes any sense, as if it's who i am or what i believe in. (i can't speak for gorbles.) no, you didn't call me woke specifically, but i am under the umbrella according to the designation of the environment (thousands of fingers); if you want the appeal of we knowing who you're talking about (it's the only way it's useful, really), you have to follow how it's used.

you solely think it's useful because this vague groupstruct of yours is what you think is real. if you'd know me, you'd know i'm all ears to other perspectives (as i've said many times around on this forum, i actually do have extremely right wing acquaintances), and this assumption of criticism dismissal is just... i'm not sure how to put it nicely. it's not smart. it's not connected to the things i, as an appointed carpenter by everyone, actually consider good policy, and it's specifically not truth or facts or, well, logic. talk about what i believe in, not about how i am testing SawStop on goldfish

i'm not a carpenter. i'm not "woke". in whatever way you find it useful, you're massively arbitrating here. i'm not saying you can't talk with me, i just think it's completely absurd that you defend the right to claim i make tables, as if it's in any way useful to anyone. as you noted, to you it feels like an excuse to dismiss criticism. it's not. i'm rather saying it's a litmus test as to what people know in a conversation, because two exchanges in you're gonna be ranted at over something you don't practice or believe in. and then you can choose how to expend your energy. in a lot of the cases, the target is missed so badly with the woke grouping that it's completely fine to walk away. i don't think this is unreasonable. reverse the carpenter conversation and take a minute to think about whether you want to talk to that person.

the thing is, i don't really care if someone's not acquainted with the literature or how the "woke" actually think. it's just embracing the ignorance i "suggest" when they choose not to acquaint themselves with their positions, and yell to the sky about carpenter goldfish abuse.
 
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Whats the point in discussing the economy? Everyone knows its rigged and unfair, and that the interests that make it so are too entrenched to budge.

Why does anyone assume that Reform is a limited resource that the Woke are misusing? Perhaps a model of that which has least friction against it begins moving first should be considered.

What is the point of "doing the work" or "having the hard conversations" if the white/male/cis/hetero power structure is too entrenched to budge?

Seriously, is this post some kind of post-post-ironic satire?

The time and energy of actual humans working on actual reforms in the actual world is limited. This is not an assumption but a self-evident fact.

Well, let's switch position : how do I convince you that people who identify as and/or fully support the "woke" ideology have a massive tendency to abuse -ism/-phobe, to apply them at the drop of a hat and to insult people at the slightest disagreement over the basis of the ideology ?
Because to me, you just have to open one of the countless threads talking about identity politics and it's pretty obvious. I mean, the LGBT news thread is probably one post out of three made of hurling "bigots" or somesuch at people who don't agree while they simply ask a question or make a point. If that doesn't convince you, what will ?

This is fascinating because to me it is precisely the opposite: if the garbage posted in the LGBTQ news thread does not convince you that pervasive anti-LGBTQ bigotry is an ongoing social problem, what will?

None if it's just a fact and true. There is never a problem with fact nor with truth by themselves.
The problem is when it's false, biased or misused. Like here, where a pejorative is just automatically associated with both an adversarial political leaning and a suggestion of ignorance, which to me feels like just an excuse to dismiss criticism and not having to reflect on why all expressions associated with the same political subgroup (SJW first, woke now) have become pejorative - it's because of those all-powerful evil right-wingers, see, nothing to blame ourselves, we're just victims here !

THIS is what I take issue with.

I want to point out two things. First you start off this paragraph talking about facts but then you just "feel" the key point to be true; no evidence offered that it is actually true.

Second, I believe that woke has become a pejorative because of the power of the right wing to manipulate the discourse through the media, but I also believe that many "woke" people are misanthropes who engage in behavior that is at best counterproductive to the cause(s) they claim to be invested in. So where do I fit into your headspace on this?
 
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@Akka
Let's make it simple. :)

I'm described as "woke".

What do I believe? What do I want from the world? Concretely?

Question's open for anyone, really. It's not a gotcha. If you get it right, you get it right.
 
What is the point of "doing the work" or "having the hard conversations" if the white/male/cis/hetero power structure is too entrenched to budge?

Seriously, is this post some kind of post-post-ironic satire?

Yeah, I've failed to communicate here. What if I instead said "What is the point in discussing the economy across the aisle? I also deleted sentences saying effectively "So the reform related questions are How and When " "Who is even defending it sincerely anymore, except for nationalist reasons?". Does that make my position less weird? That I think discussion is futile at the moment because we get nothing back. The centre and the right don't even know how they want to continue the charade, only that it must go on.

The time and energy of actual humans working on actual reforms in the actual world is limited. This is not an assumption but a self-evident fact.

I don't know that it is, but I do observe that within my lifetime that some things have budged and some seem to be nailed to the ground.
 
I'm a bit lost on this discussion, although it does seem interesting & want to understand. Is the contention "instruction can be intrinsically bad" or is it "instruction can be good while used for bad purposes" (the slaves picking cotton example), but that doesn't make the instruction itself bad? Because y'all seem to me (which is why I'm confused) to be saying the same thing.

Now, I do get "obey authority always", which @Angst points to is bad, but that seems to be a different subject? Or maybe a conflated subject?
I wont speak for @Traitorfish but i don't think that is the conclusion he reaches when he states "rules may as well be arbitrary".

My two cents on this is that many people prefer to see themselves as Logic Users In A Vacuum, and as such the suggestion that they have some ideology (which is inherent in the label "right-wing") is deeply triggering/unacceptable to them. They don't see themselves as having "political beliefs," merely as applying Logic to each issue as it arises.
"Logic users in a vacuum" is nonsensical.

@Akka
Let's make it simple. :)

I'm described as "woke".

What do I believe? What do I want from the world? Concretely?

Question's open for anyone, really. It's not a gotcha. If you get it right, you get it right.
To restructure "power" or resources in some way that you agree would be better than the "status quo"?
 
To restructure "power" or resources in some way that you agree would be better than the "status quo"?

I mean well yes (although with different terminology), but that's why I asked for something concrete - this is really, really vague. Are right wingers woke? Are fascists woke? Is every communist woke? Are centrists that believe the left is in power and that it needs to change woke?

Like, if that's what passes for woke, my point very much stands.

EDIT: Or does it, really - because what I believe in as phrased covers basically the whole spectrum, so if this is woke, I'm still wrong, but not in any useful way for proponents of the term.
 
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This is fascinating because to me it is precisely the opposite: if the garbage posted in the LGBTQ news thread does not convince you that pervasive anti-LGBTQ bigotry is an ongoing social problem, what will?
Well...
No, it can (and does) simply point the very common habits of "pro-woke" people to claim they are tolerants and yet immediately label as "bigot", "racist", "sexist" and so on anyone who disagrees with them.
:dunno:
I want to point out two things. First you start off this paragraph talking about facts but then you just "feel" the key point to be true; no evidence offered that it is actually true.
Because the first sentence is merely about a stance in general, the second is how I'm seeing things. If someone can prove a point, I'm all ready to change my mind;
Second, I believe that woke has become a pejorative because of the power of the right wing to manipulate the discourse through the media, but I also believe that many "woke" people are misanthropes who engage in behavior that is at best counterproductive to the cause(s) they claim to be invested in. So where do I fit into your headspace on this?
I get the feeling you imply that this would mess up the supposed boxes in my head where I fit people ? I already said what I thought about the first sentence (both earlier in the thread and in the past few posts). As for the second, yeah, that's good, but from our interactions I'm not sure if you realize that you also sometimes fits into this description yourself.
@Akka
Let's make it simple. :)

I'm described as "woke".

What do I believe? What do I want from the world? Concretely?

Question's open for anyone, really. It's not a gotcha. If you get it right, you get it right.
First, as a person, you can have a significant variance compared to the general ideology of the subgroup as a whole.
So let's be understood that I'm going to describe a stereotype, with possible noticeable difference from your actual opinions.

As "woke", the stereotype would be of opinions typical of the left (equality, pro-environment policies), with a heavy emphasis on identity and social justice (gender, race, disabilities and representation), and more often than not an intersectional view of society, where "patriarchy" and "whiteness" hold the top spot and have to be challenged to displace their power and correct systemic abuses.

As an aside, a good amount of these opinions are also shared by people with a dim view of "wokeness", because the pejorative perception comes first and foremost from how (and how far) these views are defended than their existence to begin with (or, as I often say, it's more about "mindset" than "values").
 
"What is the point in discussing the economy across the aisle?

I guess it comes down to one's definition of across the aisle. Sorry for being so harsh in my previous post.

The centre and the right don't even know how they want to continue the charade, only that it must go on.

Yeah, but the non-ideological people do tend to know and care that the economy is rigged.

"Logic users in a vacuum" is nonsensical.

I mean, yes, this self-image is nonsense, I agree.
 
from our interactions I'm not sure if you realize that you also sometimes fits into this description yourself.

I do, in fact.


So, you're implying you cannot conceive that this is a genuine position that I actually, sincerely hold rather than some sort of bad-faith pretext to win internet points?

I guess the ironic thing is I agree with you that there is a degree of bullying that goes on, couched in the terms of "calling out" whatever injustice. But the reason these kinds of appeals are so effective to a certain kind of person is that plenty of people are genuinely convinced that bigotry and injustice are more widespread than you seem to think. And the people who engage in this kind of bullying are generally not cynical about antiracism or whatever other kind of anti-___ism they're invested in.

I get the feeling you imply that this would mess up the supposed boxes in my head where I fit people ?

Evidently so, since your "boxes" do not seem to admit the possibility of simultaneously believing bigotry is a real, widespread problem and also being critical of whatever is termed "woke."

I don't think there is nothing to what you're saying but you are making a really strong (and imo demonstrably false - at least it is falsified by my direct experiences in some of these spaces) claim when you ascribe this "silencing criticism" motive to all 'woke' people.
 
Oh, ok, so generalizations are the best type of coercion?
 
First, as a person, you can have a significant variance compared to the general ideology of the subgroup as a whole.
So let's be understood that I'm going to describe a stereotype, with possible noticeable difference from your actual opinions.

As "woke", the stereotype would be of opinions typical of the left (equality, pro-environment policies), with a heavy emphasis on identity and social justice (gender, race, disabilities and representation), and more often than not an intersectional view of society, where "patriarchy" and "whiteness" hold the top spot and have to be challenged to displace their power and correct systemic abuses.

I know you already say that you're describing a stereotype here, but that's also kind of the problem. This doesn't describe me well and is usually not why my views are called woke. It's also kind of vague; there is naturally overlap in vague left-wing policies, but egalitarian leftist economics, environmental policy, left-wing identity politics and intersectional feminism is not the same box. I have an acquaintance who's an outright TERF whose views are called woke.

There's a very specific intersection (not in the intersectional sense, but in the overlap sense) of environmentalist, intersectional, Marxist, (etc) people that tick all the boxes, but it's not really how woke is misappropriated upon people.

I had the sense to dig up an article from May this year, in Danish sadly (attitude mirrored in the States; you may disagree with this, but I'm sure others can dig up what has stuck to their brain). So it's featuring Morten Messerschmidt, the leader of the Danish People's Party; that party is as it sounds, but thing is, it's really sizable in Denmark, and the phrasing presented is not unique to the party, it's literally present with Danish Conservatives, New Right, and Left (unhelpfully; Left is centre right wing; used to be the counterpoint to Conservatives back in the day, but has moved right hard since then). So it's a general article about the usual suspects; the dangers of wokeness, with the assorted list of social justice issues and intersectional talking points being dangerous for society. Again, not unique to the party. So which is the jump board for Messerschmidt's point? It's because a coalition of parties made an agreement about state funding to media outlets, that outlets should be aware of genderedness in media (this ticks some of your boxes). Who were the woke parties that made the agreement, then? I'm gonna need some parenthesises, because Danish parties are stupidly named. The Social Democrats (Used to be a worker's party, now it's a middle class party, slight left of centre - immigrant policy mirrors Danish People's Party, and economic policy is just slightly left of Left (who are, again, centre right)), Socialist People's Party (Used to be more left, now it's centre-left, again dumb names), Radical Left (Dumb name; they're the incarnation of centrism, works with whatever wing is in power), Free Greens (these are basically the strictly wokeist people in the intersection if the word actually meant something), The Alternative (basically Green Party, heavy on intersectional issues but very neoliberal economically) and The Christian Democrats (really weird party to explain, kind of a Frankenstein's monster of Danish Christianity and other things). So here's the thing. I can concede that Free Greens and The Alternative could be called woke; they hit the intersection pretty well. I would prefer if that was how it worked, since then the word meant anything. But they're also tiny parties, nowhere near meeting the mandates of the big centre/centre-left parties.The Alternative is 2% of Social Democrats' popular mandate. Free Greens are 6%. And while this is a broad agreement, on concrete policy, there's a dire difference as to how these parties vote and want to govern. In the article, Messerschmidt continues to talk about wokeness as a social force/conspiracy and implicates these parties as having been infected by it. And I'm just sitting there, like... It's basically a footnote of a massive agreement on how media should be administered in Denmark; I looked up the document, and this small subnote of just being aware of genderedness in media is two points of 90+, excluding points that are much longer paragraphs, that I didn't care to count. (The agreement of course only consists of changes to the previous agreement and the laws about it are much more detailed in practice.) The two points had Messerschmidt go on a rant about everything from universities to kids and sports. This is consistent as to the nature of the usage of wokeness, in the vast majority of times; and the moment someone talks about the dangers of some vague left structure and put The Alternative and The Social Democrats up side by side, they've lost me. It does not make sense outside a rhetorical function, it does not reflect how the vague left organizes within itself.

As an aside, a good amount of these opinions are also shared by people with a dim view of "wokeness", because the pejorative perception comes first and foremost from how (and how far) these views are defended than their existence to begin with (or, as I often say, it's more about "mindset" than "values").

Can you rephrase this, I have some difficulties understanding ^^ It probably has to do with my coalition outline above. My guess is that the left generally overlaps in some SJW stuff but are generally not inclinated to call themselves SJW's or woke because of it generally being a pejorative, and woke people are considered those of that caliber that are abrasive? If that's what you mean, again, I'm not sure I agree, because I mostly don't hear woke as "leftists who are abrasive", but rather, "vague leftists who are innately abrasive because they're vaguely leftist".
 
My two cents on this is that many people prefer to see themselves as Logic Users In A Vacuum, and as such the suggestion that they have some ideology (which is inherent in the label "right-wing") is deeply triggering/unacceptable to them. They don't see themselves as having "political beliefs," merely as applying Logic to each issue as it arises.
Most people feel that way.

I aim for that ideal, not in a vacuum but in a universe where I can get ultimately educated takes on important issues to me.

I would find it strange if I agreed w any 1 person or belief system about every single issue.
 
This is fascinating because to me it is precisely the opposite: if the garbage posted in the LGBTQ news thread does not convince you that pervasive anti-LGBTQ bigotry is an ongoing social problem, what will?
I've never opened said thread, such a thread is going to attract people interested in it either from a genuine interest or because they have a weird obsession.

Like a Justin Beiber video it will attract lovers and haters while 99% of the world doesn't gaf one way or another.
 
Wokism - respect other people you racist bigot
That would be a more oversimplified take of what Wokeism is.

Woke to me is about threshold. If there’s a comment that’s ambiguous as to whether or not it is in some small way prejudiced, woke person is probably going to say it is. Very low threshold. Often this is done without consideration of proportion: attaching an -ism label to someone who has made smirked at a joke made in poor taste is not in order. Even if it is technically correct to attach an -ism, the level of social censure it may bring down outweighs any good it may do. Don Quixote tilting at windmills sorta thing.
The thing with Wokeism is that it's antithetical to freedom of speech and expression and actively favors censorship and political correctness in the name of "social justice" and harm reduction from "mean words".

Hell, I can't even say that I have a preference for biological woman without some trans activist screaming at me "that's transpobic, BIGOT!!" or have an interest in interracial dating without accusations of "colonizing a person" or some weird race fetish. Having art from Japan and an interest in said country's culture? I'm slammed with accusations of cultural appropriation. Playing Fallout 4 with a female player character and wearing a sexy outfit, boom I'm classed as a sexist pig (Not to mention the whole lot of can of worms Gamergate opened up). Saying I want stronger borders, I'm immediately flagged as a xenophobic racist by woke progs without allowing me to go further or learn that I also want the bureaucracy behind legal immigration to be more streamlined and entail a less wait time. Then eventual cancellation by said mob. The wokeists have an act now and ask questions later mentality, they don't stop to think.

I mean, the LGBT news thread is probably one post out of three made of hurling "bigots" or somesuch at people who don't agree while they simply ask a question or make a point.
I recall being dogpiled when I suggested to be more self-aware on how their outburst would be view in a negative light (not to mention giving materials to the likes of Ben Shapiro, Steven Crowder, or Libs of TikTok on a silver platter) and have a side effect of drawing people away from their cause. No, I get the "if you're support is easily swayed by someone being mean, you were never going to be a supporter anyway" and "Dude's on the verge of supporting those who want to kill us!". Almost to the point of getting frustrated and fed up enough to leave CFC entirely after being maligned so many times. Instead, I just washed my hands of it and just went with "I'm done with this, you're on your own" mentality. Asking questions is out of the question when there's an "I'm not here to educate you" mentality and an air of hostility that you have to walk on eggshells to avoid getting dog piled on and getting your head bitten off for asking an innocent question in good faith (The whole "cis" being weird thing, is largely drawn from having to walk on eggshells to avoid having their heads bitten off by activists if and when they misstep).

If the garbage posted in the LGBTQ news thread does not convince you that pervasive anti-LGBTQ bigotry is an ongoing social problem, what will?
How much of this "anti-LGBTQ bigotry" is drawn out of frustration and ire directed at the over-zealousness of social justice activists or actual bigotry? What I see, is a backlash against over-zealous social justice activists and people have reached their breaking point that enough is enough.
 
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I appreciate your honesty Gen. I think there alot of people w your views out there who are so fatigued w all the purity tests and infighting they don't even bother to engage anymore.

Probably this is the majority even. Certainly more than extreme views on either side.

Also wth is breadtube?
 
Whats the point in discussing the economy? Everyone knows its rigged and unfair, and that the interests that make it so are too entrenched to budge.
So just give up and obsess about off color jokes from 20 years ago cuz that's something and someone we can effect?

Definitely not the big dick energy the left needs.
 
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