Wonder Elimination Thread

[Randall Turner]

Colossus is already down, please vote down another one. Thanks!

Sorry, snuck my vote in just before yours, swmaniac.

 

[AznWarlord]

I'm playing off Randall Turner's

Angkor Wat 20
Big Ben 20
Brandenburg Gate 10
Chichen Itza 21
Cristo Redentor 19
Eiffel Tower 20
Himeji Castle 21
Machu Picchu 20
Notre Dame 20
Pentagon 21
Sistine Chapel 20
Statue of Liberty 22
Stonehenge 26
Sydney Opera House 18
Taj Mahal 18
Forbidden Palace 21
Great Library 20
Great Lighthouse 18
Great Wall 21
Hagia Sophia 21
Hanging Gardens 14
Kremlin 18
Louvre 18
Oracle 21
Porcelain Tower 20
Pyramids 24

Louvre: You get 2 great people, that sounds awesome until you realize that they're both great artists.

Great Wall + Archer + Walls, really does hell on those Warrior rushes even on always war

edit: Removed Colossus

 

[Bezurn]

Angkor Wat 20
Big Ben 20
Brandenburg Gate 8
Chichen Itza 21
Cristo Redentor 18
Eiffel Tower 20
Himeji Castle 22
Machu Picchu 20
Notre Dame 20
Pentagon 21
Sistine Chapel 20
Statue of Liberty 22
Stonehenge 26
Sydney Opera House 18
Taj Mahal 18
Forbidden Palace 21
Great Library 20
Great Lighthouse 18
Great Wall 20
Hagia Sophia 21
Hanging Gardens 14
Kremlin 18
Louvre 20
Oracle 21
Porcelain Tower 21
Pyramids 24

True a golden age can be popped with Brandenburg Gate, but depending on the number of wars you've been involved in that GA might be quite short. I guess it depends on which game speed you play. I'm on epic 95% of the time so I've gotten at least 3 generals by the time this wonder is available.

 

[elprofesor]

I play a lot of late game, and I always play a strong Culture game, so I've always got the Order "Planned Economy" policy. That does the same thing the Forbidden Palace does. In my current game, I'd only get about 5-6 happiness from it. (I've got 20-25 cities, play semi-wide, semi-tall, ie, medium.) Even Monarchy (later Tradition policy) gives me a much bigger happiness boost. Edit: my capital is currently at 24 population, so Monarchy will give me a +12 happiness boost along with some money. (Actually more like +9 net happiness gain due to specialists.)

25 cities, 5-6 happiness?!?
Correct me if I'm wrong, but both FP and PE give you back 25% of your city unhappiness (base 2); so with that number of cities, it should grant you 12-13 happiness! Which is just as good as monarchy, and gets better when/if you finally decide to conquer that runaway civ that has been nagging you all game long (which in my case is usually your fetish leader, Askia), bumping your city count to the 40s.

When you rex or take the warmonger route, you will need all the happiness you can get, and FP gives you a sizeable amount quite soon (usually more than twice as much as Notre Dame, which comes around the same time).
On the other hand, the earlier SPs have gotten a lot of attention from patches, while neither the latter nor the wonders have. So right now it's a matter of Monarchy being very good, not FP or PE (which, let's remind it, grants access to one of the best SPs, communism) being too weak.

On the other hand, I've played a handful of late start games, and they are completely different from regular games. If the GL was still available in the medieval era, then I might build it, but not when coming so soon tech wise, and so late in the priority order (we are beelining steel more often than not).

PS: you might as well make a list in your sig of all the XML'ed files you've got. It must be tiring to repeat the same story everytime you explain why you play like you do

 

[Randall Turner]

25 cities, 5-6 happiness?!?

<snip>

PS: you might as well make a list in your sig of all the XML'ed files you've got. It must be tiring to repeat the same story everytime you explain why you play like you do

If the numbers aren't reasonable make me go look them up, I was giving you off-the-cuff from memory. And I have no row to hoe here, just remembered that the Forbidden Palace was in the list of "available" wonders to build when one of my later Great Engineers popped up, and I thought, "nah, not enough benefit."

Looking at the last save game here, I've got 21 cities and "16 generated from number of cities" for unhappiness. So, I'd get 8 happiness from Forbidden Palace, right? I can go conquer the city it's in and test, if you think it'd be something else.


re - xml files: I've only edited two, the units file and the handicaps file. (checking...) And one more, GlobalDefines.xml also. Basically, though, I go back and forth from "vanilla" to "edited" freely. I don't think anything I've done should affect this city happiness number. Again, we should be able to confirm that by my giving you my save file - you'll just end up with a bit unhappy AI, a few more available resources, and some stronger Mechanized Infantry, everything else should match.

 

[turtlefang]

Angkor Wat 20
Big Ben 20
Brandenburg Gate 6 (-2)
Chichen Itza 21
Cristo Redentor 18
Eiffel Tower 20
Himeji Castle 22
Machu Picchu 20
Notre Dame 20
Pentagon 21
Sistine Chapel 20
Statue of Liberty 22
Stonehenge 26
Sydney Opera House 18
Taj Mahal 18
Forbidden Palace 21
Great Library 20
Great Lighthouse 18
Great Wall 20
Hagia Sophia 21
Hanging Gardens 14
Kremlin 18
Louvre 20
Oracle 21
Porcelain Tower 21
Pyramids 25 (+1)

The Pyramids - a gift that just keeps on giving the whole game.

 

[Ravellion]

Angkor Wat 20
Big Ben 21
Brandenburg Gate 6
Chichen Itza 21
Cristo Redentor 18
Eiffel Tower 20
Himeji Castle 22
Machu Picchu 20
Notre Dame 20
Pentagon 21
Sistine Chapel 20
Statue of Liberty 22
Stonehenge 26
Sydney Opera House 18
Taj Mahal 18
Forbidden Palace 21
Great Library 20
Great Lighthouse 18
Great Wall 18
Hagia Sophia 21
Hanging Gardens 14
Kremlin 18
Louvre 20
Oracle 21
Porcelain Tower 21
Pyramids 25

I don't think great walls benefit is either substantial nor long lasting enough. Any defence would probably be better suited by an equal amount of hammers invested in units.

Big Ben is just so generally useful for any victory type, and unlike pyramids, has a low opportunity cost at the time it comes available.

 

[elprofesor]

If the numbers aren't reasonable make me go look them up, I was giving you off-the-cuff from memory. And I have no row to hoe here, just remembered that the Forbidden Palace was in the list of "available" wonders to build when one of my later Great Engineers popped up, and I thought, "nah, not enough benefit."

Looking at the last save game here, I've got 21 cities and "16 generated from number of cities" for unhappiness. So, I'd get 8 happiness from Forbidden Palace, right? I can go conquer the city it's in and test, if you think it'd be something else.

What I'm positive about is that FP cuts unhapiness from number of cities by 25%, as does PE (both 50% before patches). Then I am almost sure that every city costs 2 unhapiness by itself (India's UA would be ridiculous if it was only 1). So 16 unhapiness from 21 cities seems really low! I guess you have PE and the Liberty SP that grants hapiness from trade routes, but even then it's too low... Either I'm wrong, or there's something I don't know about the "unhapiness generated from number of cities"

 

[Randall Turner]

It's about time to revert my files anyway, it's possible (though I don't see how) my edits affected player happiness.

I have every policy by this point, almost literally, and almost every wonder - Forbidden Palace is one of the very few the AI beat me to.

Anyway. Taking that city isn't easy, it's Berlin, I'd have to play ahead quite a ways to get it.

(Germany is still recovering from a prior war w/another civ, it's possible, but a lot of work. They're the second-biggest army right now. And I'm gonna get nuked.)

BTW - I never do this, but just for this "test" I tried to attack Berlin after signing a open borders agreement. It moved all my units back to my borders as soon as I tried to sneak-attack, I didn't know it worked that way! (I never do that, I have enough diplo problems w/o Pearl Harboring somebody.)

Edit: I suppose it's worth it. <sigh> Won't be for a while yet, I'm not doing it tonight.

 

[M_Sparkle]

Angkor Wat 20
Big Ben 21
Brandenburg Gate 6
Chichen Itza 21
Cristo Redentor 18
Eiffel Tower 20
Himeji Castle 22
Machu Picchu 20
Notre Dame 20
Pentagon 21
Sistine Chapel 20
Statue of Liberty 22
Stonehenge 27 +1
Sydney Opera House 18
Taj Mahal 18
Forbidden Palace 21
Great Library 20
Great Lighthouse 18
Great Wall 18
Hagia Sophia 21
Hanging Gardens 12 -2
Kremlin 18
Louvre 20
Oracle 21
Porcelain Tower 21
Pyramids 25

 

[Mods]

Why all the hanging gardens hate? Its a free Colosseum that should give at least 3 pop to your cities combined, early on that can be huge

 

[joyous_gard]

Why all the hanging gardens hate? Its a free Colosseum that should give at least 3 pop to your cities combined, early on that can be huge

Huge for the AI that gets it 99.9 percent of the time.

Edit: THat being said, it is a lot better than many wonders and probably exited too quickly.

Edit: Oh it has 12 points. These elimination threads are complicated.

 

[Tabarnak]

Louvre: You get 2 great people, that sounds awesome until you realize that they're both great artists.

It's a great wonder. You can beeline it for a cultural victory or simply build this wonder for a larger amount of GA turns than the Taj Mahal(and you can start the GA when you want)!

From this statement, i guess people will eliminate Taj before Louvre...

 

[Glassmage]

Angkor Wat 20
Big Ben 21
Brandenburg Gate 6
Chichen Itza 21
Cristo Redentor 18
Eiffel Tower 20
Himeji Castle 22
Machu Picchu 21
Notre Dame 20
Pentagon 21
Sistine Chapel 20
Statue of Liberty 22
Stonehenge 27
Sydney Opera House 18
Taj Mahal 18
Forbidden Palace 21
Great Library 20
Great Lighthouse 18
Great Wall 16
Hagia Sophia 21
Hanging Gardens 12
Kremlin 18
Louvre 20
Oracle 21
Porcelain Tower 21
Pyramids 25

 

[Glassmage]

great wall is the only wonder that get obsolete so it sucks.

Machu is fun for trade routes + commerce policy

 

[I_qua_I]

Angkor Wat 20
Big Ben 21
Brandenburg Gate 4
Chichen Itza 21
Cristo Redentor 18
Eiffel Tower 20
Himeji Castle 22
Machu Picchu 21
Notre Dame 20
Pentagon 21
Sistine Chapel 20
Statue of Liberty 22
Stonehenge 28
Sydney Opera House 18
Taj Mahal 18
Forbidden Palace 21
Great Library 20
Great Lighthouse 18
Great Wall 16
Hagia Sophia 21
Hanging Gardens 12
Kremlin 18
Louvre 20
Oracle 21
Porcelain Tower 21
Pyramids 25

 

[TimeWeaver]

Angkor Wat 20
Big Ben 21
Brandenburg Gate 4
Chichen Itza 21
Cristo Redentor 18
Eiffel Tower 20
Himeji Castle 22
Machu Picchu 21
Notre Dame 20
Pentagon 21
Sistine Chapel 20
Statue of Liberty 22
Stonehenge 28
Sydney Opera House 18
Taj Mahal 18
Forbidden Palace 21
Great Library 20
Great Lighthouse 18
Great Wall 14
Hagia Sophia 21
Hanging Gardens 12
Kremlin 18
Louvre 20
Oracle 21
Porcelain Tower 21
Pyramids 26

The pyramids get your empire all worked up like a whip in a slave labour ramp line at Giza! The great wall isn't that great, it really outta be ramped up.

 

[The A.K.T]

Angkor Wat 20
Big Ben 21
Brandenburg Gate 2
Chichen Itza 21
Cristo Redentor 18
Eiffel Tower 20
Himeji Castle 22
Machu Picchu 21
Notre Dame 20
Pentagon 21
Sistine Chapel 20
Statue of Liberty 22
Stonehenge 28
Sydney Opera House 18
Taj Mahal 18
Forbidden Palace 21
Great Library 20
Great Lighthouse 18
Great Wall 14
Hagia Sophia 21
Hanging Gardens 12
Kremlin 18
Louvre 20
Oracle 21
Porcelain Tower
Pyramids 27

 

[GoodSarmatian]

Louvre: You get 2 great people, that sounds awesome until you realize that they're both great artists.

If you go for a cultural victory or an enemy has resources you can culture bomb it's huge, and even if you don't have any demand for Great Artists it's still two golden ages you can trigger on demand

Huge for the AI that gets it 99.9 percent of the time.

That seems to be the main problem for me with Hanging Gardens. Mathematics and HG are often such a high priority for AI players that I don't even try.



Angkor Wat 20
Big Ben 21
Brandenburg Gate 2
Chichen Itza 22
Cristo Redentor 18
Eiffel Tower 20
Himeji Castle 22
Machu Picchu 21
Notre Dame 20
Pentagon 21
Sistine Chapel 20
Statue of Liberty 22
Stonehenge 28
Sydney Opera House 18
Taj Mahal 18
Forbidden Palace 21
Great Library 20
Great Lighthouse 18
Great Wall 14
Hagia Sophia 21
Hanging Gardens 12
Kremlin 16
Louvre 20
Oracle 21
Porcelain Tower
Pyramids 27

I said in my first vote it's a tie between Chitchen Itza and Big Ben. Since I voted Big Ben I now vote Chitchen Itza.
Hmm, the Colossus is gone.
In my opinion both Brandenburg Gate and the Kremlin are only good for the Great Scientist points, but the free general can at least be used for a golden age.

 

[filli_noctus]

Angkor Wat 20
Big Ben 21
Brandenburg Gate 2
Chichen Itza 22
Cristo Redentor 18
Eiffel Tower 20
Himeji Castle 23
Machu Picchu 21
Notre Dame 20
Pentagon 21
Sistine Chapel 20
Statue of Liberty 22
Stonehenge 28
Sydney Opera House 16
Taj Mahal 18
Forbidden Palace 21
Great Library 20
Great Lighthouse 18
Great Wall 14
Hagia Sophia 21
Hanging Gardens 12
Kremlin 16
Louvre 20
Oracle 21
Porcelain Tower
Pyramids 27

Sydney Opera House comes too late to be any use, even if going for cultural victory it'll only speed up the inevitable.

Himeji Castle is on my 'must build' list as the best defence buff in the game, especially since oligarchy got patched.