Wonder Elimination Thread

Oracle is one of the most popular wonders while the Terracotta Army is regarded as garbage: but both give you a kick on the social policy tree: The Oracle immediately and the Terracotta Army gradually. I'm too lazy to calculate which one is best but the difference in appreciation seems not to be justified to me.

Unlike some bonuses (such as the Hagia Sophia's Great Prophet), social policies are considerably more valuable when rushed, since you unlock their benefits sooner (while a quick Great Prophet doesn't help you when you need time for your religion to spread to be useful) - and +6 culture becomes less and less important as the game goes on, and the period when it's most useful for a one-off Wonder has almost passed by the time you get TA. By the time you can get TA you can get the Hermitage, which produces greater culture (and can be enhanced by a religious belief if so desired), and it's rare enough for people to build that.

Alhambra 19
Big Ben 23
Brandenburg Gate 18
Chichen Itza 24
Eiffel Tower 27
Great Library 21
Hagia Sophia 11
Himeji Castle 13
Hanging Gardens 33
Hubble 33
Leaning Tower of Pisa 27
Louvre 27
Machu Picchu 25
Neuschwanstein Castle 18
Notre Dame 28
Oracle 32
Petra 24
Porcelain Tower 25
Pyramids 21
Sistine Chapel 19
Statue of Liberty 27
Stonehenge 23

Hagia Sophia is simply the weakest of the remaining Wonders gameplaywise (even if I do build it more often than Himeji), and weaker than some that have already gone).

Petra because I'm unashamedly indulging in favouritism by this point
 
Alhambra 19
Big Ben 23
Brandenburg Gate 18
Chichen Itza 24
Eiffel Tower 25 (-2)
Great Library 21
Hagia Sophia 11
Himeji Castle 13
Hanging Gardens 33
Hubble 33
Leaning Tower of Pisa 27
Louvre 27
Machu Picchu 25
Neuschwanstein Castle 18
Notre Dame 28
Oracle 33 (+1)
Petra 24
Porcelain Tower 25
Pyramide 21
Sistine Chapel 19
Statue of Liberty 27
Stonehenge 23

Dont get me wrong Eiffel Tower, I do like you but I always felt you were inconsistent with yourself. If I go wide I'll need the happiness boost, but I won't have so many SP. if I go tall, I'll have a bunch of SP but won't need the happiness so bad.

Oracle is cool. At every new SP I'll think of all the turns saved (which can amount in the dozens in the end).
 
Alhambra 19
Big Ben 23
Brandenburg Gate 18
Chichen Itza 24
Eiffel Tower 25
Great Library 21
Hagia Sophia 11
Himeji Castle 13
Hanging Gardens 33
Hubble 34 (+1)
Leaning Tower of Pisa 27
Louvre 27
Machu Picchu 25
Neuschwanstein Castle 16 (-2)
Notre Dame 28
Oracle 33 (+1)
Petra 24
Porcelain Tower 25
Pyramide 21
Sistine Chapel 19
Statue of Liberty 27
Stonehenge 23

Hubble because it's awesomesauce and powerful.
The nooch gets downvoted simply because I randomize my map settings and I often do not get a viable mountainside site for a city so I can't build it.
 
Alhambra 19
Big Ben 21
Brandenburg Gate 19
Chichen Itza 24
Eiffel Tower 25
Great Library 21
Hagia Sophia 11
Himeji Castle 13
Hanging Gardens 33
Hubble 34
Leaning Tower of Pisa 27
Louvre 27
Machu Picchu 25
Neuschwanstein Castle 16
Notre Dame 28
Oracle 33
Petra 24
Porcelain Tower 25
Pyramide 21
Sistine Chapel 19
Statue of Liberty 27
Stonehenge 23

Big Ben, never build it, never go commerce. Find both way too weak especially since I have so much else to build as Big Ben comes up. Brandenburger Gate for the super awesome artillery/bomber/battleship units who will be produced in the city who has built the wonder. As a rather defensive player sporting few units I am quite dependent on ranged units being able to fire twice to stop my enemies, and then counterattack to steal/raze their cities.

You have, IMHO, been a bit unfair to the SOH. It might be a game winner much like the Hubble when playing on higher levels as the AI tend to keep up with you in pretty much everything. I often find that the difference between win/loss is only 2-3 turns where opera house/hubble can be the winning factor.
 
Alhambra 19
Big Ben 21
Brandenburg Gate 20 (+1)
Chichen Itza 24
Eiffel Tower 25
Great Library 21
Hagia Sophia 11
Himeji Castle 13
Hanging Gardens 33
Hubble 34
Leaning Tower of Pisa 27
Louvre 27
Machu Picchu 25
Neuschwanstein Castle 14 (-2)
Notre Dame 28
Oracle 33
Petra 24
Porcelain Tower 25
Pyramide 21
Sistine Chapel 19
Statue of Liberty 27
Stonehenge 23

I'll again vote up the Brandenburg Gate. It's been good since Vanilla and is even more so now that you have a use for more than one GG.

Voting down Neuschwanstein Castle. Too difficult to build and the bonus is lackluster. Happiness isn't difficult to come by in the game and building a whole buch of Castles to get it just isn't worth it to most players/civs.

You have, IMHO, been a bit unfair to the SOH. It might be a game winner much like the Hubble when playing on higher levels as the AI tend to keep up with you in pretty much everything. I often find that the difference between win/loss is only 2-3 turns where opera house/hubble can be the winning factor.

I want to like the Opera House, but it's not a strong late wonder. It needs something in addition to the free social policy in the late game to be worth it to anyone not going for a Cultural Victory. 2 Social Policies would be overpowered, though...maybe if it included a large mass of hard culture, as well.
 
Oracle is one of the most popular wonders while the Terracotta Army is regarded as garbage: but both give you a kick on the social policy tree: The Oracle immediately and the Terracotta Army gradually. I'm too lazy to calculate which one is best but the difference in appreciation seems not to be justified to me.

Consider it this way: the Oracle is worth however much culture your final policy is worth and 3 cpt. Terracotta Army is worth 6 cpt. Just for easier numbers, let's say the game lasts 250 turns after you built both. Terracotta gave you 1500 culture and the Oracle gave you 750. However, unlike other "free" things in G&K, the Oracle's free policy does not contribute to later policy costs. I suck at explaining, but let's say you finished Tradition and you're one policy away from finishing Rationalism without the Oracle. If you had the Oracle, you would have finished Rationalism, so you can say the Oracle was worth however much culture that policy costs. It becomes MUCH bigger in cultural games when you need to get that 30th policy and it costs a buttload.

Hubble is too late to use the GS for other victory types usefully (if you've gone Satellites instead of the Globalization tech path you're just compensating for bad tech progression to diplo, it comes after the culture techs, and if you're going domination you should have enough of a military advantage by that stage that it's largely irrelevant - and again beelining Satellites isn't a priority).

Oh, right...Diplomatic Victory is a thing. I forgot it even exists now.

I disagree with Domination; it's right there with Rocketry and Rocket Artillery is freaking nuts, especially since Stealth Bombers have been moved so far down the tech tree(which was much needed).
 
Alhambra 19
Big Ben 21
Brandenburg Gate 21 (+1)
Chichen Itza 24
Eiffel Tower 25
Great Library 21
Hagia Sophia 11
Himeji Castle 13
Hanging Gardens 33
Hubble 34
Leaning Tower of Pisa 27
Louvre 27
Machu Picchu 25
Neuschwanstein Castle 12 (-2)
Notre Dame 28
Oracle 33
Petra 24
Porcelain Tower 25
Pyramide 21
Sistine Chapel 19
Statue of Liberty 27
Stonehenge 23

Once again I forgot to mention the extra great gen from Brandenburg. In Multi very useful if you have been citadel warring and have few great generals for new fronts - in addition to Instant 3 promotion units

Neuschwanstein is still the most useless on this list - and more useless than some already eliminated. Deserves to be voted off next
 
Alhambra 19
Big Ben 21
Brandenburg Gate 21 (+1)
Chichen Itza 24
Eiffel Tower 25
Great Library 21
Hagia Sophia 11
Himeji Castle 13
Hanging Gardens 33
Hubble 34
Leaning Tower of Pisa 25
Louvre 27
Machu Picchu 25
Neuschwanstein Castle 13
Notre Dame 28
Oracle 33
Petra 24
Porcelain Tower 25
Pyramide 21
Sistine Chapel 19
Statue of Liberty 27
Stonehenge 23

Why is Neusch so hated? How is this useless? 3 gold, 2 culture, 1 happy per city by building a maintenance-free improvement? A GM point and 4 culture besides? It's particularly lucrative with Honor and it's even more amusing as Gandhi who gets 2 more culture and some gold with his Mughal Fort replacement. I guess you guys just don't play enough games where walls and upgrades are useful against bat@#$# crazy neighbors

Pisa : I know its useful, but often Pisa = pick an engineer just to build a different wonder. I dunno. Just strikes me as weird. Wish it did something else.
 
Normally in singleplayer for me at least if I am forced to build walls - I am doing something wrong. I can handle AI threats

On multiplayer - it often times makes sense not to even touch honor. And when you do there are 3 more relevant policies for survival normally ahead of you anyways in it - A walls may help a border city siege - but there are just better tech paths than going for Neuschwanstein in multi. Grabbing it feels like a mistake compared to your other options. To me it feels like a thing of being better on paper than actual gameplay
 
Alhambra 19
Big Ben 21
Brandenburg Gate 20 (+1)
Chichen Itza 24
Eiffel Tower 25
Great Library 21
Hagia Sophia 11
Himeji Castle 13
Hanging Gardens 33
Hubble 34
Leaning Tower of Pisa 27
Louvre 27
Machu Picchu 25
Neuschwanstein Castle 14 (-2)
Notre Dame 28
Oracle 33
Petra 24
Porcelain Tower 25
Pyramide 21
Sistine Chapel 19
Statue of Liberty 27
Stonehenge 23

I'll again vote up the Brandenburg Gate. It's been good since Vanilla and is even more so now that you have a use for more than one GG.

Voting down Neuschwanstein Castle. Too difficult to build and the bonus is lackluster. Happiness isn't difficult to come by in the game and building a whole buch of Castles to get it just isn't worth it to most players/civs.

The point is that you take it with the final Honor policy, which gives you maintenance-free happiness buildings that, in the mid-game when happiness is an issue (assuming you don't simply want positive happiness for Golden Ages, which is an underrated effect), allows you to build those instead of Colosseums etc. which will cost you happiness.

I want to like the Opera House, but it's not a strong late wonder. It needs something in addition to the free social policy in the late game to be worth it to anyone not going for a Cultural Victory.

What about 50% extra culture in the city where it's built?

Oh, wait...

Oh, right...Diplomatic Victory is a thing. I forgot it even exists now.

I almost always go for diplo or science.

I disagree with Domination; it's right there with Rocketry and Rocket Artillery is freaking nuts, especially since Stealth Bombers have been moved so far down the tech tree(which was much needed).

Satellites (unlocking Hubble) is the next tech, and takes as much time as two earlier techs along the Combustion path without providing any military tech whatsoever - you may as well go back to research those, since if you've beelined to Rocketry you don't have them. And if you haven't beelined to Rocketry? By the time you get Satellites you don't need the techs Hubble gives you...

Yes, Stealth Bombers are now very late, but do you need them for a Domination victory? If you're that far down the tech tree and still have opponents close enough to you in power that you need stealth bombers to take them out, something is very wrong.

And even going for science victory I've yet to find Hubble being a game-winner - if I'm going to win I'm going to win without it. If I'm not, I'm not going to win with it. You have to be very close to a rival going for the same win condition for it to be valuable. It's not a bad Wonder by any means - indeed it's pretty perfectly balanced for its place in the tech tree and its victory condition - but it's not one with a game-changing effect. It's a "beat your fastest turn time" Wonder more than a "beat your closest rival" Wonder.

Pisa : I know its useful, but often Pisa = pick an engineer just to build a different wonder. I dunno. Just strikes me as weird. Wish it did something else.

Bear in mind that it has the same effect as a National Epic in every city (except that it's cumulative with National Epic), it's not just "one free Great Person". So, yes, you almost always use it to get a second Wonder (generally the Porcelain Tower as I play), but you still get the bonus from Pisa itself as well.
 
Normally in singleplayer for me at least if I am forced to build walls - I am doing something wrong. I can handle AI threats

On multiplayer - it often times makes sense not to even touch honor. And when you do there are 3 more relevant policies for survival normally ahead of you anyways in it - A walls may help a border city siege - but there are just better tech paths than going for Neuschwanstein in multi. Grabbing it feels like a mistake compared to your other options. To me it feels like a thing of being better on paper than actual gameplay

arent castles in the normal build order for puppets? i think it could help mitigate some unhappiness even further and the other bonuses are just nice gravy. im only pissed at it when its available to me but none of my cites are near a mtn in the borders. things like that are frustrating to notice once you get tech access.
 
Alhambra 19
Big Ben 21
Brandenburg Gate 21 (+1)
Chichen Itza 25
Eiffel Tower 25
Great Library 21
Hagia Sophia 11
Himeji Castle 13
Hanging Gardens 33
Hubble 34
Leaning Tower of Pisa 25
Louvre 27
Machu Picchu 25
Neuschwanstein Castle 13
Notre Dame 28
Oracle 33
Petra 24
Porcelain Tower 25
Pyramide 21
Sistine Chapel 17
Statue of Liberty 27
Stonehenge 23

I like Chichen Itza because I call it Chicken Pizza and it reminds of how much I would like to eat a chicken pizza. It is also REALLY useful in game. And Sistine Chapel makes me hum the song "Sixteen Candles" except i sing "SIS-teeen Chapeellllll" and then i dont know the rest of the words. it's really quite annoying to get that stuck in your head. It's okay in game but only if you are playing culture and i think i have that vic out of my system now.
 
Alhambra 19
Big Ben 21
Brandenburg Gate 21 (+1)
Chichen Itza 25
Eiffel Tower 25
Great Library 21
Hagia Sophia 11
Himeji Castle 13
Hanging Gardens 33
Hubble 34
Leaning Tower of Pisa 25
Louvre 27
Machu Picchu 25
Neuschwanstein Castle 11
Notre Dame 28
Oracle 33
Petra 24
Porcelain Tower 25
Pyramide 21
Sistine Chapel 17
Statue of Liberty 28
Stonehenge 23

NC : Bashing continue...yeah i never build it either because i need to build useless buildings in my cities to make it worth.

Statue of Liberty : Nice wonder that helps near the end to build spaceship parts and stuff. Good production enhancer.

Edit : I suggest to use +1,-3 for future votes because numbers are high enough.
 
Alhambra 19
Big Ben 21
Brandenburg Gate 21
Chichen Itza 25
Eiffel Tower 25
Great Library 21
Hagia Sophia 11
Himeji Castle 13
Hanging Gardens 33
Hubble 34
Leaning Tower of Pisa 25
Louvre 27
Machu Picchu 25
Neuschwanstein Castle 11
Notre Dame 28 -2 = 26
Oracle 33
Petra 24
Porcelain Tower 25
Pyramid 21 +1 = 22
Sistine Chapel 17
Statue of Liberty 28
Stonehenge 23

Getting tricky now. ND down for being at the wrong end of the tech tree for cultural games (although good for warmongers, I'm not usually one). Pyramids is great for boosting early game infrastructure plus starting the GE wonder spam!
 
The point is that you take it with the final Honor policy, which gives you maintenance-free happiness buildings that, in the mid-game when happiness is an issue (assuming you don't simply want positive happiness for Golden Ages, which is an underrated effect), allows you to build those instead of Colosseums etc. which will cost you happiness.

If you really need to build castles while taking the Honor tree, you're warmongering wrong. The nail in the coffin is it's tricky to build *and* has a lackluster effect compared to the remaining wonders on the list (and some that have been eliminated).

Is it useless? No. Few wonders are. But it's nowhere near the list of most useful Wonders.

What about 50% extra culture in the city where it's built?

Oh, wait...

Does it do that now? I can't find an updated list for Wonders in G&K (and the manual for G&K lists the vanilla benefits of the Wonders). That's certainly better, but the Opera House still isn't the best wonder. The fact that it has to be built on the coast, where cities tend to be less likely to be a production powerhouse, hinders it.
 
Does it do that now? I can't find an updated list for Wonders in G&K (and the manual for G&K lists the vanilla benefits of the Wonders). That's certainly better, but the Opera House still isn't the best wonder. The fact that it has to be built on the coast, where cities tend to be less likely to be a production powerhouse, hinders it.

It does give 50% culture boost, which can be truly massive if you happened to plan your culture city to be in a coastal spot. A coastal spot, which as you noted, doesn't always lend itself to lots of hammers to build other wonders and culture buildings.

But that can be overcome with god of the seas, lots of sea resources or surrounding land resources, etc.
 
Alhambra 19
Big Ben 21
Brandenburg Gate 22
Chichen Itza 25
Eiffel Tower 25
Great Library 21
Hagia Sophia 9
Himeji Castle 13
Hanging Gardens 33
Hubble 34
Leaning Tower of Pisa 25
Louvre 27
Machu Picchu 25
Neuschwanstein Castle 11
Notre Dame 26
Oracle 33
Petra 24
Porcelain Tower 25
Pyramid 22
Sistine Chapel 17
Statue of Liberty 28
Stonehenge 23

Down with the hagia Sophia again, as I don't consider 1 free prophet that strong. I stand by my previous feelins that I would much prefer the great mosque in nearly al situations.

Brandenburg Gate gets a +1. The extra starting xp for units can help you field some very strong units when combined with the regular buildings like barracks. Plus, I absolutely love citadels so a free great general is always welcome.
 
If you really need to build castles while taking the Honor tree, you're warmongering wrong.

But now those castles are Colosseums only with added money, culture, and defensive benefits. I agree with you that I'm not so sure how good it is; but at the same time I think a few too many people are voting it down because they don't like castles, without thinking that the wonder gives castles an entirely new and different use. To me, that's interesting and cool.
 
If you really need to build castles while taking the Honor tree, you're warmongering wrong. The nail in the coffin is it's tricky to build *and* has a lackluster effect compared to the remaining wonders on the list (and some that have been eliminated).

It has nothing to do with warmongering (beyond the fact that you won't otherwise be taking Honor) - 4 maintenance free happiness buildings = the happiness per city of a stadium without any maintenance cost. When you are warmongering, you want the money from maintenance saved to fund unit maintenance, and early on you want the happiness boost to help you puppet and (more importantly) annex faster. The defensive abilities of castles are irrelevant. There simply isn't a downside to building them with Honor unless you're short of production slots, which you should never be when warmongering.

Is it useless? No. Few wonders are. But it's nowhere near the list of most useful Wonders.

True.

Does it do that now? I can't find an updated list for Wonders in G&K (and the manual for G&K lists the vanilla benefits of the Wonders). That's certainly better, but the Opera House still isn't the best wonder.

It did it in vanilla (maybe only post-patch? I started after the first major patch), it should do so now. Not the best Wonder, but I'd still rank it above things like either Castle, Hagia Sophia or Big Ben (a bonus I very rarely go for or need even though I commonly go Commerce).
 
Alhambra 19
Big Ben 21
Brandenburg Gate 22
Chichen Itza 25
Eiffel Tower 25
Great Library 21
Hagia Sophia 9
Himeji Castle 13
Hanging Gardens 33
Hubble 32
Leaning Tower of Pisa 25
Louvre 27
Machu Picchu 25
Neuschwanstein Castle 11
Notre Dame 26
Oracle 33
Petra 24
Porcelain Tower 25
Pyramid 22
Sistine Chapel 17
Statue of Liberty 28
Stonehenge 24

Stonehenge: good for early religion
Hubble: Comes too late to be gamechanging. It doesn't deserve to win.
 
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