Wonder Elimination Thread

[aguliondew]

Alhambra 15
Big Ben 19
Brandenburg Gate 8
Chichen Itza 25
Eiffel Tower 17
Great Library 15
Hanging Gardens 31
Hubble 19
Leaning Tower of Pisa 29
Louvre 29
Machu Picchu 29
Neuschwanstein Castle 12
Notre Dame 29
Oracle 32
Petra 31
Porcelain Tower 27
Sistine Chapel 12
Statue of Liberty 29

Great Library - Never can build it on the difficulties I play on.

Statue of Liberty - Extra production for every city.

 

[Monthar]

Vote withdrawn due to the complaints.

 

[Slvynn]

Alhambra 15
Big Ben 19
Brandenburg Gate 8
Chichen Itza 25
Eiffel Tower 17
Great Library 15
Hanging Gardens 31
Hubble 20
Leaning Tower of Pisa 29
Louvre 29
Machu Picchu 26
Neuschwanstein Castle 12
Notre Dame 29
Oracle 33
Petra 28
Porcelain Tower 27
Sistine Chapel 12
Statue of Liberty 29

Despite being late, Hubble is must for Any Science Victory (very low level difficulty out of count)

Petra - 3, situational and overrated

 

[black213]

Alhambra 15
Big Ben 19
Brandenburg Gate 5
Chichen Itza 25
Eiffel Tower 17
Great Library 16
Hanging Gardens 31
Hubble 20
Leaning Tower of Pisa 29
Louvre 29
Machu Picchu 26
Neuschwanstein Castle 12
Notre Dame 29
Oracle 33
Petra 28
Porcelain Tower 27
Sistine Chapel 12
Statue of Liberty 29

Still love my Philosophy slingshots and building the NC ASAP.
Never found much of a use for the Brandenburg Gate.

 

[GoodSarmatian]

Alhambra 15
Big Ben 19
Brandenburg Gate 5
Chichen Itza 25
Eiffel Tower 17
Great Library 17
Hanging Gardens 31
Hubble 20
Leaning Tower of Pisa 29
Louvre 29
Machu Picchu 26
Neuschwanstein Castle 12
Notre Dame 29
Oracle 33
Petra 28
Porcelain Tower 27
Sistine Chapel 12
Statue of Liberty 29

Haven't voted in a couple of days, but I can't help mysel any longer.
So many downvotes for the Great Library ? You've got be kidding me. It gives a library and allows you to instantly get the tech required for the National College. You'll be the tech leader for a long time.

Petra has to go down. Yes, it can be the best wonder in the game. It can also be the weakest or not available at all.

 

[draaibaar]

Alhambra 15
Big Ben 19
Brandenburg Gate 5
Chichen Itza 25
Eiffel Tower 17
Great Library 14
Hanging Gardens 31
Hubble 20
Leaning Tower of Pisa 29
Louvre 29
Machu Picchu 26
Neuschwanstein Castle 12
Notre Dame 29
Oracle 33
Petra 29
Porcelain Tower 27
Sistine Chapel 12
Statue of Liberty 29

Petra: I like it because it's situational.
Great Library: I don't like the simple profit of a tech, I don't like slingshots.

 

[PhilBowles]

Alhambra 15
Big Ben 19
Brandenburg Gate 2
Chichen Itza 25
Eiffel Tower 17
Great Library 14
Hanging Gardens 31
Hubble 20
Leaning Tower of Pisa 29
Louvre 29
Machu Picchu 26
Neuschwanstein Castle 12
Notre Dame 29
Oracle 33
Petra 27
Porcelain Tower 27
Sistine Chapel 12
Statue of Liberty 29

Petra got two downvotes and one upvote and should now be at 26, not 29. And up again to 27 as I'm voting it up again. Nearly all Wonders are situational to some degree, so this is meaningless in itself. Relatively speaking, the situations in which Petra is valuable tend to be common, and the payoff is worth it. It all comes down to whether the limitation is worth it given the ability, which is why so many people voted down castles with a mountain requirement but hardly anyone has voted down Macchu Picchu on the same basis - they're equally situational, but MP has the far superior ability. I more often find myself in a good position to build Petra than in a good position to build Macchu Picchu.

Down with Brandenburg Gate mostly to start thinning the list by pushing out the lowest-ranked Wonders remaining.

 

[Buccaneer]

Leaning Tower of Pisa gives 25% bonus to Great Person generation. That's the only remaining one in these categories (unless you disallow all Wonders because they all produce at least one GPP - with, for some reason, the exception of Statue of Zeus, which wasn't in this list to begin with). It can also give you a Great Prophet if you really want it to...

As for "anything to do with espionage", this is only bad because only one Wonder has anything to do with espionage (Great Firewall), and it isn't very good.

Thank you, I knew I could've looked it up but I hadn't been in the game since the beginning of summer.

Alhambra 15
Big Ben 19
Brandenburg Gate 2
Chichen Itza 25
Eiffel Tower 17
Great Library 14
Hanging Gardens 31
Hubble 20
Leaning Tower of Pisa 29 -3 = 26
Louvre 29
Machu Picchu 26
Neuschwanstein Castle 12
Notre Dame 29 +1 = 30
Oracle 33
Petra 27
Porcelain Tower 27
Sistine Chapel 12
Statue of Liberty 29

Pisa is a GPP generator, which in some games, may not mean much.
Have to give a vote to ND and its nice boost that could come at the perfect time. (hard one to get, though).

 

[Shadow717]

Alhambra 15
Big Ben 19
Brandenburg Gate 2
Chichen Itza 25
Eiffel Tower 17
Great Library 14
Hanging Gardens 31
Hubble 20
Leaning Tower of Pisa 23
Louvre 29
Machu Picchu 26
Neuschwanstein Castle 13
Notre Dame 30
Oracle 33
Petra 27
Porcelain Tower 27
Sistine Chapel 12
Statue of Liberty 29


- Leaning tower: Great people are good, but I almost never actuallly focus on them, I usually just have them pop up as they please and enjoy the bonus. Because of that I'm not crazy about a wonder driven towards great people.

+ Neuschwanstein: Having went honor in my game last night, this wonder suddenly looks pretty dang good (and of course there isn't a damn mountain in sight in that game...), and I think it is better than a few that are still on this list.

I still like the brandenburg gate, I think its also better than a few other wonders still out there like big ben, but with its points so low I dont think I can change what is to come

 

[Gucumatz]

Maybe due to the lack of multiplayer playing you all do - is a main reason you all don't appreciate it . With singleplayer its pretty easy to save a unit from death and have highly promoted units. In multi you will lose units - and chances of keeping an ancient to modern unit highly promoted is... slim. Going with a tradition late game kick it can be very powerful. With a high gold per turn and cash reserve Brandenburg can allow you to go on a late game conquering spree

Probably why I view it as better than Neuschwanstein (another downvote) and Big Ben still. Looks like the brandenburg haters won this round though

Alhambra 15
Big Ben 19
Brandenburg Gate 3 (+1)
Chichen Itza 25
Eiffel Tower 17
Great Library 14
Hanging Gardens 31
Hubble 20
Leaning Tower of Pisa 23
Louvre 29
Machu Picchu 26
Neuschwanstein Castle 10(-3)
Notre Dame 30
Oracle 33
Petra 27
Porcelain Tower 27
Sistine Chapel 12
Statue of Liberty 29

 

[black213]

The main reason I downvoted the Brandenburg is simply because I rarely if ever warmonger.

 

[Dogmouth]

Alhambra 15
Big Ben 19
Brandenburg Gate 3
Chichen Itza 25
Eiffel Tower 17
Great Library 14
Hanging Gardens 31
Hubble 20
Leaning Tower of Pisa 23
Louvre 29
Machu Picchu 26
Neuschwanstein Castle 11 (+1)
Notre Dame 30
Oracle 33
Petra 27
Porcelain Tower 27
Sistine Chapel 12
Statue of Liberty 26 (-3)

I'm still baffled why the SoL ranks so highly. It's late game, expensive, and the yield is meh. Even if you have a ton of specialists -- say 15 -- it's going to be 70 turns before you get your hammers back, and your hammers will be spread out rather than concentrated. What is so great about that?

Keep the Neusch alive! Tons of culture, happiness, and gold for cheap and maintenence free buildings? Yes, please!

 

[Hammer Rabbi]

Alhambra 15
Big Ben 19
Brandenburg Gate 3
Chichen Itza 25
Eiffel Tower 17
Great Library 14
Hanging Gardens 31
Hubble 20
Leaning Tower of Pisa 23
Louvre 29
Machu Picchu 23
Neuschwanstein Castle 12
Notre Dame 30
Oracle 33
Petra 27
Porcelain Tower 27
Sistine Chapel 12
Statue of Liberty 26

I dont play wide very often but i really like Neusch when i do and I am always beat to Machu which is why i downvoted it. I dont prioritize it because gold is usually already very nice in wide but when i do try for it i get beat on by 1-3 turns which is facepalm-angering.

 

[Kwami]

Alhambra 15
Big Ben 19
Brandenburg Gate 3
Chichen Itza 25
Eiffel Tower 17
Great Library 14
Hanging Gardens 31
Hubble 17
Leaning Tower of Pisa 23
Louvre 29
Machu Picchu 23
Neuschwanstein Castle 13
Notre Dame 30
Oracle 33
Petra 27
Porcelain Tower 27
Sistine Chapel 12
Statue of Liberty 26

Hubble is too powerful and makes the space race silly. Yes, I understand that it's supposed to be overpowered because it comes so late in the game, but even still I think that it's too powerful. Two Great Scientists at that point in the game is going to give you a huge boost to finishing the tech tree. The free Spaceship Factory and +25% Production bonus will turn your highest Production city into one so efficient that it's often faster to just build all 6 parts in that one city than to spread them around. To me, that defeats the purpose of things like Spaceship Factories and other buildings that increase Production late game. The worst part about Hubble Space Telescope is that the AI never seems to beat me to it. Either they don't prioritize that tech when going for a Science victory, they don't make use of the Great Engineer's ability, or they just don't bother to build it. I'm not sure what the cause is, but I find that Hubble makes Science victories far too easy. Thus, my down vote.

Neuschwanstein is still one of my favorite wonders in the game. For a wide empire, it's a fantastic amount of Gold, Culture, and Happiness with no maintenance cost. You'll get less of these things in a tall empire, but tall empires tend to benefit more from Culture and tend to need more Gold boosts than do wide empires. Plus, tall empires often already have castles in every city for defensive purposes. Finally, Neuschwanstein comes with a tech that you're always going to take, so you don't have to go far out of the way to get it. Thus, my up vote.

 

[nefloyd]

Alhambra 15
Big Ben 19
Brandenburg Gate 3
Chichen Itza 25
Eiffel Tower 17
Great Library 14
Hanging Gardens 31
Hubble 17
Leaning Tower of Pisa 23
Louvre 29
Machu Picchu 23
Neuschwanstein Castle 14
Notre Dame 30
Oracle 33
Petra 27
Porcelain Tower 27
Sistine Chapel 12
Statue of Liberty 23

If I paid more attention to managing citizens, Statue would be worth less than I think it is even now

 

[PhilBowles]

Alhambra 15
Big Ben 19
Brandenburg Gate 3
Chichen Itza 25
Eiffel Tower 17
Great Library 14
Hanging Gardens 31
Hubble 17
Leaning Tower of Pisa 23
Louvre 29
Machu Picchu 23
Neuschwanstein Castle 13
Notre Dame 30
Oracle 33
Petra 27
Porcelain Tower 27
Sistine Chapel 12
Statue of Liberty 26

Hubble is too powerful and makes the space race silly. Yes, I understand that it's supposed to be overpowered because it comes so late in the game, but even still I think that it's too powerful. Two Great Scientists at that point in the game is going to give you a huge boost to finishing the tech tree. The free Spaceship Factory and +25% Production bonus will turn your highest Production city into one so efficient that it's often faster to just build all 6 parts in that one city than to spread them around. To me, that defeats the purpose of things like Spaceship Factories and other buildings that increase Production late game. The worst part about Hubble Space Telescope is that the AI never seems to beat me to it. Either they don't prioritize that tech when going for a Science victory, they don't make use of the Great Engineer's ability, or they just don't bother to build it. I'm not sure what the cause is, but I find that Hubble makes Science victories far too easy. Thus, my down vote.

They don't bother to build it. Any AI that completes Apollo and wants science victory automatically starts building spaceship parts when it can.

As per my previous analysis of this Wonder, it does nothing much for science victories you won't be doing anyway. If you're in the lead, speeding up your research of the final spaceship parts does effectively nothing but allow you to win a few turns earlier than you would anyway. And in practical experience it has never once turned a science victory around that I wasn't going to either win or lose anyway, and I build it every time. The spaceship factory is only built in one city, however the +25% build time on spaceship parts applies to all your cities, so it can still be valuable to produce parts in multiple cities. But then, there's no reason you should be forced to play wide with multiple production cities to win science - you can turn one city into a production powerhouse (although it would have to be a good production city to build Hubble in a useful timeframe anyway), and what's wrong with that?

 

[VikingHaag]

Big Ben 19
Brandenburg Gate 3
Chichen Itza 25
Eiffel Tower 17
Great Library 14
Hanging Gardens 31
Hubble 20
Leaning Tower of Pisa 20 (-3)
Louvre 29
Machu Picchu 26
Neuschwanstein Castle 15 +1
Notre Dame 30
Oracle 33
Petra 27
Porcelain Tower 27
Sistine Chapel 12
Statue of Liberty 29

Stating it again, Neuschwanstein coupled with honors turns your castle into a satraps court + monument, just without the specialist slots and the 25% gold.

Tower of Pisa: I can't see any good use for it except popping a GE to rush something better.

 

[nefloyd]

Looks like the newsletter for S.Y.N.C. (Saving Your Neuschwanstein Castle) needs to go out early this year!

 

[GAGA Extrem]

Big Ben 19
Brandenburg Gate 0
Chichen Itza 25
Eiffel Tower 17
Great Library 14
Hanging Gardens 31
Hubble 20
Leaning Tower of Pisa 20
Louvre 29
Machu Picchu 26
Neuschwanstein Castle 15
Notre Dame 30
Oracle 33
Petra 28
Porcelain Tower 27
Sistine Chapel 12
Statue of Liberty 29

Brandenburg Gate: Bye, bye.
Petra: Deserves a +1!

 

[knighterrant81]

Hubble is too powerful and makes the space race silly. Yes, I understand that it's supposed to be overpowered because it comes so late in the game, but even still I think that it's too powerful. Two Great Scientists at that point in the game is going to give you a huge boost to finishing the tech tree. The free Spaceship Factory and +25% Production bonus will turn your highest Production city into one so efficient that it's often faster to just build all 6 parts in that one city than to spread them around. To me, that defeats the purpose of things like Spaceship Factories and other buildings that increase Production late game. The worst part about Hubble Space Telescope is that the AI never seems to beat me to it. Either they don't prioritize that tech when going for a Science victory, they don't make use of the Great Engineer's ability, or they just don't bother to build it. I'm not sure what the cause is, but I find that Hubble makes Science victories far too easy. Thus, my down vote.

If you have a strong economy, Hubble is much weaker. Hubble lets you capitalize on one strong production city, and make up for weak gold and science generation. If you have strong Science (which you most likely will during a science victory) those final techs come pretty quick (or perhaps instantaneously with previously stored up freebies like Rationalism's 2-fer and Oxford), so the GS's aren't that strong. With the hammers you use you could have built two SS parts (and thats even without the SS factory buff, although its a bit hard to compare since SS factories buff your hammers, not reduce the cost of the SS part). The 25% production is strong if you have 6 cities ready to start some parts (but since you probably beelined satellies you are only ready to build one). 6 Factories are a bigger boost, and you can get them faster/instantly (360 hammers being simultaneously earned by 6 cities versus one city earning 1250, or just purchase with gold). If you only have one really strong production city, and don't have the gold or aluminum for instafactories, (and your science is weak making the GS's more valuable) then Hubble is ok.

If we were talking a Vanilla Babylonian game where you're trying to launch by 1300, then Hubble could be quite a steal - save up a few GEs, pop that Hubble and you've got a few more GS's to make up for your moribund science and gold generation. Those Science Victory rushes worked by abusing RAs to make up for a trashed economy. By pushing the rationalism RA bonus late in the tree, making free GS's count against your GPP generation, and putting PT later in the tech tree, they've made that rush play quite a bit weaker.

You're forced to get by on your base economy a little more now in G+K, which means you're more likely by the time you get to Hubble to already have all your resources squared away for a Science Victory and Hubble doesn't really do much to speed you up. Its like the CN Tower - a great wonder that comes just a tad too late. If it was a tier or two behind Robotics it would be amazing.

We certainly aren't talking about the Colossus here; Hubble's decent. Just by the time you've gotten it you've already won.