Wonder Elimination Thread

At this point in the game, an extra social policy is nice but certainly not as nice as it is with the unfairly-maligned Oracle.

I guess we will have to disagree here. I'd rather get a later social policy that I could put into Rationalism or my ideology. After you fill out Tradition or whatever branch you started with, what do you do with your social policies before you unlock Rationalism?

What I mean is you usually get 8 social policies before Rationalism. I can't figure out what to do with 7 or 8. What am I going to do with 9?
 
I guess we will have to disagree here. I'd rather get a later social policy that I could put into Rationalism or my ideology. After you fill out Tradition or whatever branch you started with, what do you do with your social policies before you unlock Rationalism?

What I mean is you usually get 8 social policies before Rationalism. I can't figure out what to do with 7 or 8. What am I going to do with 9?

Fill out patronage so you own the city states for later diplomacy? Go for Ascetisism for your cultural victory? Go Commerce for the happiest and wealthiest empire this side of Venice? Work on Exploration for your naval might? I'm not fond of the Oracle this high up, but there's so many more game plans that make a game enjoyable then Tradition -> Rationalism. Especially on larger maps.
 
Eiffel Tower : 30
Leaning Tower of Pisa - 30
Neuschwanstein - 23
Petra - 8 An excellent wonder, but not the best of the remaining.
Sistine Chapel - 30 I am a huge fan of culture, and the timing of Sistine Chapel is fantastic for a cultural win.
Statue of Liberty - 19
 
On a completely related note where did the Hubble Space Station go? It's by far the best wonder out of the remaining ones. Surly it was not eliminated before a wonder like Neuschwanstein.

Eiffel Tower : 30
Leaning Tower of Pisa - 30
Neuschwanstein - 20
Petra - 9
Sistine Chapel - 30
Statue of Liberty - 19

Railroad itself is just on a bad tech path and considering that you should almost always get to the modern era through radio, it's not worth beelining for when plastics is a much better option. You need to research 5 tech outside the plastic beeline to get Railroad and considering any non-domination victory types you want to rush buy all the required building so it's not worth delaying those techs to get a 25% boost of production to NON-CAPITAL cities that need those buildings.
 
Eiffel Tower : 30
Leaning Tower of Pisa - 30
Neuschwanstein - 21
Petra - 9
Sistine Chapel - 30
Statue of Liberty - 16

Neuschwanstein - If all of my games were wrapped up by modern era i would have stopped playing a while ago. I usually have some late-game conquering to do even for non-DV. In my last game (immortal) I was set for immanent CV by t250 except against Russia who had 14 wonders boosted by Heritage WC policy, a huge culture bar and a 16-city empire and was adopting Order. That's a good example of where beelining plastics before artillery was pointless and where railroad paid for itself.

Yes the "easy" thing to do is tech to bombers but railroad is better and quicker if you actually put the effort in - bring workers everywhere, build the railroad in enemy territory so your artillery can move and fire on the next city as soon as you conquer this one, etc. Moscow was in the bag before she had flight.

Railroad is my favorite tech. Neuschwanstein is on my favorite tech. There is no reason I would ever not build Neuschwanstein.

Statue of Liberty: same as before, it's a lovely wonder but Freedom games are a bit too boring and samey.
 
I guess we will have to disagree here. I'd rather get a later social policy that I could put into Rationalism or my ideology. After you fill out Tradition or whatever branch you started with, what do you do with your social policies before you unlock Rationalism?

What I mean is you usually get 8 social policies before Rationalism. I can't figure out what to do with 7 or 8. What am I going to do with 9?

It sounds as though you progress fairly slowly culturally if you only fill out two pre-ideology trees rather than the typical 3, but at least for me by the time I reach Replaceable Parts (plus the time taken to build the statue) I've often already finished Rationalism. Waiting until the Modern Era to finish it is not ideal, since that's a whole era when you could be faith-buying scientists that you aren't doing so.

Ideological tenets aren't unwelcome, but most aren't anything game-changing given how late in the game they come.
 
On a completely related note where did the Hubble Space Station go? It's by far the best wonder out of the remaining ones. Surly it was not eliminated before a wonder like Neuschwanstein.

It hasn't been here since I joined the thread, and I'm glad to see it isn't as heavily overrated as it was in the last Wonder elimination thread. It's CN Tower-like in its appearance of giving a drastically powerful effect that is to all intents and purposes irrelevant by the time you get to it. I've never won a game because of Hubble that I can recall: if I've got it when in the lead, I was on course to win anyway; if I'm behind by the time I hit Satellites, it's because I'm producing too little science for the GSes to make a lasting difference. It's one of those Wonders that's there to shave turns off your victory time rather than win you the game, so it doesn't deserve to be especially high.
 
It hasn't been here since I joined the thread, and I'm glad to see it isn't as heavily overrated as it was in the last Wonder elimination thread. It's CN Tower-like in its appearance of giving a drastically powerful effect that is to all intents and purposes irrelevant by the time you get to it. I've never won a game because of Hubble that I can recall: if I've got it when in the lead, I was on course to win anyway; if I'm behind by the time I hit Satellites, it's because I'm producing too little science for the GSes to make a lasting difference. It's one of those Wonders that's there to shave turns off your victory time rather than win you the game, so it doesn't deserve to be especially high.

Isn't that what wonders are supposed to do? Give special bonuses to your empire thus getting special advantages and in turn complete the game faster. I can't recall a wonder giving you an ability to win the game regardless of the situation, you have to put yourself in that situation to succeed. I've played games where I've build many wonders and games where I've built no wonders I finished the game much slower in the latter but it's still winnable. Getting to a tech 16 turns faster is an immense boast regardless of VC. How efficient the game was played is shown by how many turns it took to win and shaving off potentially 16 turns shows how effective and potent Hubble is I don't think any of the remaining wonders can consistently say they can do that.

Neuschwanstein - If all of my games were wrapped up by modern era i would have stopped playing a while ago. I usually have some late-game conquering to do even for non-DV. In my last game (immortal) I was set for immanent CV by t250 except against Russia who had 14 wonders boosted by Heritage WC policy, a huge culture bar and a 16-city empire and was adopting Order. That's a good example of where beelining plastics before artillery was pointless and where railroad paid for itself.

Yes the "easy" thing to do is tech to bombers but railroad is better and quicker if you actually put the effort in - bring workers everywhere, build the railroad in enemy territory so your artillery can move and fire on the next city as soon as you conquer this one, etc. Moscow was in the bag before she had flight.

You needed 9 more techs away from artillery to build higher maintenance cost roads in enemy territory and 25% to production to non-capital cities? It would have been easier and more efficient to tech plastics to get internet faster and spam artillery or even Bio and then Flight for Bombers. Of course through the game things happen and you need to adapt and change directions for the short term i.e get artillery before ST however teching Railroad seems to me a waste of time since your essentially trading Replaceable parts for Railroad where former is on the path for the internet which is so important for a CV (7 techs vs 8).
 
Eiffel Tower : 30-3=27
Leaning Tower of Pisa - 30
Neuschwanstein - 21
Petra - 9+1=10
Sistine Chapel - 30
Statue of Liberty - 16

Deduction for Eiffel Tower. Out of all the wonders remaining it's only really suited for 1 victory strategy and lets face it, it's good for a culture victory but not essential.

Upvote for Petra. Seriously this is the earliest wonder left in the game and it comes in the first quarter of the game which means it's really going to pay its way. The bonuses to food and production are good for any victory strategy and while it does require a good desert placing this condition does give you the time to decide if it's worthwhile to build.
 
Isn't that what wonders are supposed to do? Give special bonuses to your empire thus getting special advantages and in turn complete the game faster. I can't recall a wonder giving you an ability to win the game regardless of the situation, you have to put yourself in that situation to succeed.

It's not that some of the remaining Wonders can give you the ability to win the game "regardless of the situation", it's that they can facilitate victory (not just the speed of victory) when included in a strategy: Petra will do this, Sistine Chapel will do this (that's a lot of extra policies over the course of a game, plus defence against ideological pressure), Leaning Tower will do this (25% GP generation across all types makes a very big difference), Eiffel's boost to ideological pressure just at the time 12 tourism is still a meaningful amount can do this in more limited circumstances. These are all stronger effects than "winning 16 turns earlier".

Sure, being able to win 16 turns earlier is a good effect, which is why wherever it is Hubble is unlikely to be close to the bottom of the list, but at this stage we should be at the point where the only Wonders that remain are ones that can change the fortunes of a game, rather than just saving a few 'Next Turn' clicks (granted, Statue of Liberty and Neuschwanstein don't qualify as game-changing Wonders and should have gone a while ago as well).
 
Eiffel Tower : 27
Leaning Tower of Pisa - 30
Neuschwanstein - 21
Petra - 10-3=7
Sistine Chapel - 30
Statue of Liberty - 16+1=17

Down-voting Petra. It's a huge gamble, and you might as well reroll if you miss it. Even if you do get it, you're left with a bit of catching up to do to get back on track. I admit it's a lot of fun, but far far too situational.

As for upvoting... I'm going to have to go Statue of Liberty out of all the ones remaining (PT is gone?? really?? :confused: ). Yea, it costs a bunch of hammers in one city, but it adds at least 8 to all your other cities. It's arguably the best of the ideology wonders, and it synergizes really well with Freedom (I like specializing in specialists).
 
You needed 9 more techs away from artillery to build higher maintenance cost roads in enemy territory and 25% to production to non-capital cities? It would have been easier and more efficient to tech plastics to get internet faster and spam artillery or even Bio and then Flight for Bombers. Of course through the game things happen and you need to adapt and change directions for the short term i.e get artillery before ST however teching Railroad seems to me a waste of time since your essentially trading Replaceable parts for Railroad where former is on the path for the internet which is so important for a CV (7 techs vs 8).

Ok it's valid to say Railroad is several techs off the track from Plastics if you are skipping artillery. Now you're arguing that even if I get artillery and then tech toward plastics, I should still disregard a 25% production boost and 50% increase in friendly territory troop movement during a war at the cost of one more tech. The production boost which will also get my satellite research labs online a few turns faster, paying back some of the "delay." (That's all being academic anyway. In practice the impact of building railroad all around your artillery as they work is as huge as keeping an enemy capital instead of losing it back after a turn. Citadels can turn the artillery work zone into friendly territory if I need them to move-and-shoot while still taking the capital.)
 
I am left with this question: is Petra worthy of being in top 5 world wonders? I don't know which wonder to downvote and I think Petra is worthy of being in top 5. Then I'll knock it out once another wonder is eliminated.

Eiffel Tower : 27
Leaning Tower of Pisa - 30
Neuschwanstein - 18 - great for wide empires. Ordinary for tall empires. You need a mountain to build this so it can be rather hard to get. By a hair, I consider it the worst wonder left compared to Petra.
Petra - 7
Sistine Chapel - 30
Statue of Liberty - 18 Epic production boost for tall empires. Synergizes with the freedom ideology very well.
 
Eiffel Tower : 27
Leaning Tower of Pisa - 30
Hubble Space Telescope- 28- 2 free Great Scientists. This is quite amazing because you are not likely to get too many more scientists after this so it dosent affect your progress as much.
Neuschwanstein - 18 -
Petra - 4- It is a situational wonder, so not good in every game.
Sistine Chapel - 30
Statue of Liberty - 18

Added the HST back, it was accidentally removed on pg 13.
 
Order of Elimination

Angkor Wat
Pentagon
CN Tower
Terracotta Army
Parthenon
Cristo Redentor
Red Fort
Taj Mahal
Statue of Zeus
Kremlin
Great Firewall
Great Wall
Great Mosque of Djenne
Himeji Castle
Great Lighthouse
Mausoleum of Halicarnassus
Pyramids
Brandenburg Gate
Great Library
Hagia Sophia
Sydney Opera House
Alhambra
Globe Theater
Big Ben
Borobudur
Prora
Broadway
Uffizi
Louvre
Porcelain Tower
Forbidden Palace
Hanging Gardens
Temple of Artemis
Stonehenge
Notre Dame
Colossus
Chichen Itza
Machu Picchu
 
Eiffel Tower : 27
Leaning Tower of Pisa - 30
Hubble Space Telescope- 25
Neuschwanstein - 18 -
Petra - 5
Sistine Chapel - 30
Statue of Liberty - 18

Wow, this is going to make a mess of the order - it's been missing for 12 pages, but you're right it needs to be eliminated properly. So I'll start, for reasons already stated; it's also a situational Wonder, insofar as the situation when it's useful is "You've already won the game". Given how low CN Tower ranks on essentially the same basis Hubble - while certainly better - shouldn't be ranked as far higher as it is.

The best thing about Hubble is that it's in the game - if we treat a Wonder as an impressive and unique achievement, of all the Wonders added to Civ V that weren't in previous games, Hubble is the one that most deserves to be there.

Petra: Almost all Wonders are situational to some degree - Petra just specifies the situations when it's useful upfront in its text; and as I noted in an earlier post, if you 'gamble' with it and lose, that's your fault as much as banking on the Eiffel Tower to win you the cultural game without focusing on other sources of tourism is your fault when it fails. Good Petra sites are sites that are good without Petra for the most part; for a start, they need to be good enough production hubs to build the thing in the first place since you'll rarely have an Engineer that early, and it's also pre-Metal Casting.
 
When I say situational, I mean how often a good spot for the wonder is available. Desert areas are usually not that good.

Yes, I know what you mean. My point is that focusing on that particular situation is misguided, because there's nothing that makes a situational terrain type any more or less constraining than other situational game conditions.

Take the recently-departed Machu Picchu. You can think of it as being situational because it needs a mountain - easy right? But it's also situational because it needs a certain number of cities with profitable connections. Okay, getting harder, but surely that's just a matter of choice whether you play tall or wide? Except that now you're looking not just for the MP city spot, but also for suitable spots for every city you want to connect it to - whether you play tall or wide is itself going to be constrained by the landscape. Oh, and you need the city you actually build the thing in to have enough production to do so, as well as its mountain, or you need to be relying on another city to provide you with an engineer through choices you've made earlier in the game.

The same hidden situational concerns apply to Neuschwanstein or Statue of Liberty - sure you can build extra castles, but the Wonder's effects are tightly constrained by the same sorts of considerations about how many decent city spots you have access to, as well as the tech strategy adopted and already discussed. Statue of Liberty gets you +8 production per city, a figure suggested earlier on this thread? Sure, if you've got the food to sustain that, the money to maintain factories and windmills in non-production cities (allowing that everyone wants a workshop), no cities on hills (since you need the windmills), and enough coal for a factory in every city. etc. etc.

Just in terms of geography, look at the image I posted a couple of days ago again:

Spoiler :


Then I was asking people to look at York. Now look at Nottingham, or just the landscape as a whole. Which is a less desirable location - York for Petra, or Nottingham or a hypothetical city a tile or two east of York or west of Nottingham, for closer access to the mountains (and hence Neuschwanstein or Machu Picchu)? There's very little useful production land anywhere near those mountains around Nottingham. If I sited Nottingham one tile west I'd lose Mt. Sinai, while if I sited York closer to the mountains I'd have lost the city's wheat. Neuschwanstein comes much too late to justify settling a suboptimal city I'd be keeping for the whole game, and a city placed there is never going to have the food to sustain a population high enough to make an observatory worthwhile.

Sure, that's a single anecdotal situation, but deserts really aren't as bad as often claimed and good sites are consistent enough that people base strategies around Petra. A desert hill is identical to any other hill, improved desert iron or stone with the appropriate supporting buildings have output equal to a mined hill, strategic resources and incense are somewhat common in desert, oases and floodplains can provide food - as, eventually (with Fertilizer), can wheat. You might well get one or two bare desert tiles that are no good for anything, but people actively settle near mountains which also have no tile output, and which quite often come in chains (finding a good production city spot next to an isolated counts-as-mountain NW is rather rarer than finding a good desert city spot).
 
Eiffel Tower : 27
Leaning Tower of Pisa - 30
Hubble Space Telescope- 22
Neuschwanstein - 19
Petra - 5
Sistine Chapel - 30
Statue of Liberty - 18

Downvote for Hubble. Nice wonder in terms of having it in your empire, but bad in terms of metagame. All I can really see it doing is giving the science leader a bigger lead. It cuts about 14 turns off the amount of time you have left to stop them.

Upvoting Neuschwanstein again. I don't beeline plastics all the time because I'm not the kind of player who is trying to win as quickly as possible. Also, I think that having Infantry on Plastics is as bad as having Pikemen on Civil Service by letting you ignore a side of the tech tree. Anyway, it's a great reward if you fill out the tech tree, and like playing wide.

Also, if you've gone autocracy, you're going to have castles anyway for Fortified Borders, so this is just so much tasty gravy.
 
Eiffel Tower : 27
Leaning Tower of Pisa - 27
Hubble Space Telescope- 22
Neuschwanstein - 20
Petra - 5
Sistine Chapel - 30
Statue of Liberty - 18

Up vote for Neuschwanstein because having a mountain available isn't too hard, especially for an observatory.

Down for for the Leaning Tower just to knock the lead down some.
 
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