[GS] Wondrous Wonders (Updated for Gathering Storm) 3.1.0

[Magil]

This new version is my attempt at adapting Gathering Storm to my mod beyond simple compatibility. If anyone has any extra feedback, let me know, and once I have this version out for a time I'll upload the National/World Wonders-only versions to Steam.

I just got a weird occasion where me being in ancient era, got a notification that some unmet player has completed a middle ages (!!!) wonder the great bath. In fact, this happens early every time I play.
Clearly, something's wrong with the wonders and I think your mod is the first to ask - if you have any idea how this is possible?

The Great Bath is not a medieval wonder, it is unlocked by Pottery in the Ancient Era. This is true in the base game, I didn't change anything there.

This mod is awesome, but now with the invention of strategic resources Terracotta army is not balanced! I can have 2 units for the strategic resources price of 1. Combine that with Magnus governor with Black marketeer trait and you can have 2 units for the strategic resources price of 10% of what they would cost normally and 50% of production. This is beginning to be game-breaking and needs some balance!

I don't consider this all that big of a deal, investing in the Terracotta Army should provide a solid reward. It's not nearly on the level of the Venetian Arsenal in the base game for naval units, since it only affects one city.

 

[Tovarish]

I don't consider this all that big of a deal, investing in the Terracotta Army should provide a solid reward. It's not nearly on the level of the Venetian Arsenal in the base game for naval units, since it only affects one city.

It is a HUGE deal because one can imagine that you build the wonder in the most productive city, effectively doubling it's output army-wise. Unless you build the wonder in less productive city that does not make any sense, it is out of balance and is out of balance now even more, with the invention of strategic resources. Not to mention the +50% production civic cards that go without saying. I say this from actual experience, not just theory. Whatever the AI army, I can become superior with ease, whatever the anger, I can defend my empire. It is game breaking and it is stupid that I must self-impose rule that I must not build the wonder.

Other wonders are great and balanced. However, do you have experience how well the AI recognizes and builds national wonders? When I conquer AI cities, I rarely find any national wonders there. Which is a shame, given the fact that a player shall strive to build them. I fear the AI is simply too stupid to realize how well they can help him, instead, it may build entertainment complex, to help with amenities (duh).

 

[skodkim]

I use the World Wonders only version from Steam and I really enjoy it. Any plans on updating that too?

Skodkim

 

[Tovarish]

I use the World Wonders only version from Steam and I really enjoy it. Any plans on updating that too?

Skodkim

What do you mean - "world wonders only" version? As far as I know such version is available by simply deleting the other folder, the national wonders folder.

 

[skodkim]

Super. I had a feeling it might be as easy as that but there was no mention of this, e.g. in the OP ( hint )so I decided to ask. On steam there's separate versions.

\Skodkim

 

[Magil]

You can do that (deleting the folder), but the World Wonders only version that I have on Steam is slightly different because I've moved some stuff off of World Wonders and onto National Wonders in the "main" version. In the Steam World Wonders-only version those things, like say the full Religious Tourism boost from Cristo Redentor, are still on their respective wonders, while in the main version I've removed them and moved them to National Wonders (the Apostolic Palace in this case). And yes, I will be updating it as well, just looking for feedback on these changes first.

Edit: If you want to undo those changes, you can remove the "CombinedWondrousWonders" files too.

It is a HUGE deal because one can imagine that you build the wonder in the most productive city, effectively doubling it's output army-wise. Unless you build the wonder in less productive city that does not make any sense, it is out of balance and is out of balance now even more, with the invention of strategic resources. Not to mention the +50% production civic cards that go without saying. I say this from actual experience, not just theory. Whatever the AI army, I can become superior with ease, whatever the anger, I can defend my empire. It is game breaking and it is stupid that I must self-impose rule that I must not build the wonder.

Other wonders are great and balanced. However, do you have experience how well the AI recognizes and builds national wonders? When I conquer AI cities, I rarely find any national wonders there. Which is a shame, given the fact that a player shall strive to build them. I fear the AI is simply too stupid to realize how well they can help him, instead, it may build entertainment complex, to help with amenities (duh).

I mean, usually by the time I'm at the point where I build the Terracotta Army I can usually beat the AI even without it, militarily. The AI has crazy bonuses to production in every city on higher difficulties but doesn't know how to use its units. It's efficient, but not game-ending.

As for the latter point, about the AI and National Wonders--it's actually intentional that you cannot capture National Wonders. If you capture a city with a National Wonder it will remove the National Wonder, I used to do this by giving them fortification strength but it's now done using a script. You can still see the AI building them by mousing over districts to see the list of buildings in the district, and in my experience, the AI builds them quite often--they often have the National Epic up very quickly. They don't build them in optimal locations or anything, but the AI builds them. You just can't capture them because that would bypass the 1-per-Civ limit and is fairly consistent with National Wonders as a concept in both IV and V.

Thematically, I also feel this makes sense as a National Wonder is supposed to be an expression of your Civ's cultural identity, and thus capturing one from another Civ wouldn't do you any good since it doesn't mesh with your own Civ. That's also why they're all unlocked in the Civic tree.

 

[Tovarish]

I mean, usually by the time I'm at the point where I build the Terracotta Army I can usually beat the AI even without it, militarily. The AI has crazy bonuses to production in every city on higher difficulties but doesn't know how to use its units. It's efficient, but not game-ending.

With all respect, I do not think this is an argument for leaving the mod as is. You wanted a feedback and here it is: Terracotta army is outta balance. If you consider policy cards it effectively means + 100% to production on top of already doubled - so it sounds outta whack already, without strategic resources cost being halved.
If a player like me uses AI+ or infixo's Real strategy, the AI still has some chance without Diety difficulty. So it's not like nothing at all matters, so it makes sense Terracotta was closer to something real.

Thank you for explaining national wonders - it is not SO bad as I feared - the AI builds them. OK. But I think I still would refrain to use this part of your mod - simply because the AI is too stupid and me, the player, am able to use those national wonders too damn well. For example: a building that doubles adjacency bonuses of buldings district. I rarely see AI building districts in good places where you have 4 or 5 adjacency bonus. Doubling that would give 8-10 faith/science. 10 science is a huge deal versus AI that may have only 4 science for the same 2 buildings - campus district + national wonder. Put policy card that gives + 100% to adjacency and it is no wonder AI loses, but whom am I telling this - you probably know that far better than I.

 

[Magil]

With all respect, I do not think this is an argument for leaving the mod as is. You wanted a feedback and here it is: Terracotta army is outta balance. If you consider policy cards it effectively means + 100% to production on top of already doubled - so it sounds outta whack already, without strategic resources cost being halved.
If a player like me uses AI+ or infixo's Real strategy, the AI still has some chance without Diety difficulty. So it's not like nothing at all matters, so it makes sense Terracotta was closer to something real.

Thank you for explaining national wonders - it is not SO bad as I feared - the AI builds them. OK. But I think I still would refrain to use this part of your mod - simply because the AI is too stupid and me, the player, am able to use those national wonders too damn well. For example: a building that doubles adjacency bonuses of buldings district. I rarely see AI building districts in good places where you have 4 or 5 adjacency bonus. Doubling that would give 8-10 faith/science. 10 science is a huge deal versus AI that may have only 4 science for the same 2 buildings - campus district + national wonder. Put policy card that gives + 100% to adjacency and it is no wonder AI loses, but whom am I telling this - you probably know that far better than I.

My apologies if I sounded defensive, I do appreciate the feedback. I disagree on the matter, and I will admit I like the effect--it is simple, powerful, and creates some interesting decisions (I find I often refuse to spend production on anything but military units in the city that builds it--I move Reyna down to purchase districts and buy everything in that city with gold). But if I do have too many people telling me it's overpowered I will certainly consider adjusting it.

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

your version of the terracotta army used to be powerful but reasonable ( similar to your hanging gardens for example ) but I agree that with the new strategic resource paradigm in GS it's become overpowered

 

[Tovarish]

your version of the terracotta army used to be powerful but reasonable ( similar to your hanging gardens for example ) but I agree that with the new strategic resource paradigm in GS it's become overpowered

Maybe someone else would like to express his/her thoughts on the matter?

 

[Atlas627]

Haven't played enough with GS to have an opinion. I find that if I'm building wonders I'm not also building much military. If Terracotta gets nerfed, I would probably just rather keep building military units instead of trying for the Terracotta...

 

[Guynemer]

Using an additional mod that gives maintenance resource costs to units like swordsmen and knights makes the Terracotta Army much more balanced.

 

[Tovarish]

if I do have too many people telling me it's overpowered I will certainly consider adjusting it.

2 of 3 people said the wonder is overpowered as is and the 3rd is not having contrary opinion.

 

[Atlas627]

2 of 3 people said the wonder is overpowered as is and the 3rd is not having contrary opinion.

1) I disagree with your assessment of my opinion. I said I would probably not build it if it got nerfed. Aka it is good as-is in my opinion.

2) Magil can read on their own. You're kind of shoving this down their throat by being so insistent and persistent. If it really bothers you that much you can mod Magil's mod yourself.

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

yeah the issue here is not really about wether it's OP or not, but also coming up with a workable solution. if I understand correctly, the additional unit you get does not count towards the strategic resource limit, which would qualify as an exploit but I guess it's not easily fixable

 

[Magil]

They do cost strategic resource maintenance later in the game when most units have an ongoing strategic resource cost, though it is true that they don't cost additional strategic resources when built. I've thought about it and I'm not sure I can do much in that vein, I'd like to simply, say, increase the strategic resource cost of applicable units in the city (by say 50%), but I'm pretty sure that would be all-or-nothing which I wouldn't want. So I'd have to figure something else out entirely.

 

[Tovarish]

2) Magil can read on their own. You're kind of shoving this down their throat by being so insistent and persistent. If it really bothers you that much you can mod Magil's mod yourself.

I can't mod Magil's mod myself - not all people are wise enough to program and I am certain it is still OK at the beginning of the 21st century.
I am not shoving down anybodys throat anything - I do not mean to criticize or emphasize weaknesses. I simply do not expect too many people to participate in discussion so we must judge based on those opinions we have.

 

[Tovarish]

yeah the issue here is not really about wether it's OP or not, but also coming up with a workable solution. if I understand correctly, the additional unit you get does not count towards the strategic resource limit, which would qualify as an exploit but I guess it's not easily fixable

Perhaps it could copy -1 gold maintenance discount policy card. Just an idea, of course.

 

[rebar64]

Just wanted to say how much more enjoyable this game is with your mod, and how much I appreciate you for continuing your work. Upon the GS release, I had to disable numerous mods to get the game to even load (I play pretty close to vanilla with a lot of QOL & UI tweaks/custom civs) and immediately noticed I had forgotten to activate this mod when I started building wonders and feeling underwhelmed at what they did. Most of them don't justify the production cost, let alone tile space. I thoroughly enjoy the diversity this mod brings, as well as the nods towards historical flavour. Great job! Also FWIW I think Terracotta Army isn't a problem so much as the above posters seem to think. After all, the units still require strategic resources once built from what I saw in my last game. If there's one thing I'd want to change it's Great Bath placement being restricted to floodplains because that screws with my farm triangles/diamonds, but to be honest, it's worth having to think about a trade off like that so i grudgingly respect the restriction too.

 

[Guynemer]

The Oracle is still functioning as it did previously; not getting a +20 to all great people.