Seidrik_The_Gray
Seidrik The Gray
- Joined
- Jun 26, 2006
- Messages
- 1,160
This brings up another point...the barbarians, ever since Civ IV vanilla have been push overs!!!! I want my ungodly stacks of 24 Horsemen back!
World Builders Anonymous
- Thread starter agoodfella
- Start date
This brings up another point...the barbarians, ever since Civ IV vanilla have been push overs!!!! I want my ungodly stacks of 24 Horsemen back!
winddbourne
Prince
The worldbuilder was a nice idea but it should still be seperate from the main game, and useful. In previous versions of the game I used the map editor fairly often to make custom maps, with random or set starting positions, or scenario's. Now it's most useful as a complete cheat.
You need to edit files to do half of the things the previous map editors allow, or learn a programming language. Which I don't mind as an option, it gives those who want to go that route more power. But those of us who just want to make a quick map with ALL civilizations available to play with and against should also have the option. And if you want to cheat . . . at least leave your game first and load in your save. Why take out THAT extra bit of work? Do we encourage cheating?
Because of the changes I never use WB now.
You need to edit files to do half of the things the previous map editors allow, or learn a programming language. Which I don't mind as an option, it gives those who want to go that route more power. But those of us who just want to make a quick map with ALL civilizations available to play with and against should also have the option. And if you want to cheat . . . at least leave your game first and load in your save. Why take out THAT extra bit of work? Do we encourage cheating?
Because of the changes I never use WB now.
Silence101
King
I don't usually use world builder, but I'm very picky about my starting location... sometimes I spend a lot of time just regenerating maps. I try not to use world builder at all, though... just make do with the resources available until you can kill someone else and take theirs!
meatwad4289
Prince
- Joined
- Dec 2, 2005
- Messages
- 595
i use it all the time in the game.. Because i dont want to jump to the advance games but i want to keep up, and i ahte it..
they removed the switch in Warlords.. but in vanilla i never used it, I mean I could play noble or the two harder than it and Id own.. then warlords... and... I didnt use it at first.. then one game i was getting raped, like the AI had no troops left and all of a sudden they spawn 20 soldiers out ofa city completely surrounded, and had 2 other countries declare war on me.. who were WEAK and OUTDATED i gave up and went to it. since then.. its been use it here and there.. then BtS... noble is twice as hard without it lol.
they removed the switch in Warlords.. but in vanilla i never used it, I mean I could play noble or the two harder than it and Id own.. then warlords... and... I didnt use it at first.. then one game i was getting raped, like the AI had no troops left and all of a sudden they spawn 20 soldiers out ofa city completely surrounded, and had 2 other countries declare war on me.. who were WEAK and OUTDATED i gave up and went to it. since then.. its been use it here and there.. then BtS... noble is twice as hard without it lol.
shmily_dana
Warlord
- Joined
- Mar 7, 2006
- Messages
- 285
I have not done this, but I thought about setting up "batting practice" games. For example, to practice city specialization at pre-determined locations.
The worst I've done was I destroyed a city I wanted to keep. Cathy got a settler back to that spot after the war. I went in a deleted her city. If I had reloaded, I would have had to fight the war over.
In CIVIII, I used to use it to set up maps. (I liked having the europeans together, the asians together, etc.)
The worst I've done was I destroyed a city I wanted to keep. Cathy got a settler back to that spot after the war. I went in a deleted her city. If I had reloaded, I would have had to fight the war over.
In CIVIII, I used to use it to set up maps. (I liked having the europeans together, the asians together, etc.)
Huxley Hobbes
Anarcho-capitalist
- Joined
- Jan 29, 2005
- Messages
- 162
Depends on my mood. Usually I play the game straight. Very occasionally, I will fix something I consider to be hugely unfair - this isn't just for me, I might well slap down some Iron, for example, in another civ's territory.
Mostly if I use it however, it's just to be silly. I might throw down a ton of barbarian units, or better yet one of my favorite things to do is build an entire barbarian nation somewhere relatively remote, give them enough units for defense, and ensure they have improvements and resources (Or as mentioned, do this on the other continent in a terra map). I don't know exactly how it all works with barbs, but that stuff is fun.
Or just give barbarians a nuke every 20 turns. I like the gunship idea, for sure
Oh, and a couple of times I've built cities with literally hundreds of Great People in them. Always fun. xD
Mostly if I use it however, it's just to be silly. I might throw down a ton of barbarian units, or better yet one of my favorite things to do is build an entire barbarian nation somewhere relatively remote, give them enough units for defense, and ensure they have improvements and resources (Or as mentioned, do this on the other continent in a terra map). I don't know exactly how it all works with barbs, but that stuff is fun.
Or just give barbarians a nuke every 20 turns. I like the gunship idea, for sure
Oh, and a couple of times I've built cities with literally hundreds of Great People in them. Always fun. xD
What exactly is the difference with a little map modification and using map regeneration? I think a little tweaking (an extra resource or two) at the beginning of the game is not going to have a huge effect.
That's cheating. Totally. The game is not linear. Another good resource is huge early on. Two is ridiculous.
azzaman333
meh
I only ever use the Worldbuilder to figure out what the map script does with certain settings, and to have a Barbarian showdown where I give the barbarians a heap of settlers and extra units on another continent, and try and get domination victory.
Depends on the map, and what other civs have in relation to you starting location.
There's also the matter of what you want out of a game, since the only person you have to answer to is youself and you're playing against an AI (really just pre-set mathematical algorithms that behave predictably)
You have to understand that games are artificial constructs, for instanceI lessoned the amount of experience it takes for great generals to emerge in my games because I'm a stickler for warmongering, but it also applies to every other civ.
I was annoyed that some things from older Civ games were cut, and I was also annoyed by many useless techs and design decisions made by Civ 4 developers, for instance what is the point of nuclear power plants? Why are there no MFG plants for further production bonuses, as a quick fix I added %25 production bonus to Nuclear plants.
Why do stealth destroyers in BtS replace destroyers? What was the point of preventing bombard units from being able to fully kill other attack units? Why is it in BtS that to make a military academy with a great general it now requires military science? Why is it better more often then not to not choose a state religion to prevent war because of bad design decisions?
In truth a good AI would always beat human players, in fact in many games AI can be made that will always be better then any human player (action games and FPS games for instance).
But the truth is just because the game is made one way doesn't mean we have to live with it. The point of gaming is to have fun, I play serious 'test my might' games against the AI but I also like to experiment and be creative, and the only way you can do that is by not being rigid and inflexible.
Depending on the resource added and if you see anything while adding, it can be a gamebreaker. I love wonder-GP-farming, how about I add stone and marble to my fat cross right from the get go so I don't have to do what I usually do, which is to found cities in godforsaken places just to nab some marble or stone early on?
Or if you are a warmonger and give yourself copper?
Heck even giving yourself extra food makes it a lot easier to build workers and settlers early on.
If you give yourself Uranium or something, that's less of an impact since you can't see it from the start of the game. Not as gamebreaking but still a potentially big change, especially since you can't help but see what other resources are nearby as well, such as iron, and know where to expand to.
It is also fun to discover previously hidden resources when you discover, for instance, Iron Working. WB decreases that fun, perhaps more than it apparently increases fun, depending on the person--and aside from the "I wonder if I would have done as well if I played by the rules" feeling.
Anyway, what you are describing, and what the original comment described, is cheating. It is certainly possible to have fun while cheating, and yes, the ultimate point of a game is to have fun, cheating or no cheating. This goes for regenerating maps, reloading, or whatever floats your boat. Civ IV begs to be modded, and heck yes you can have fun with mods as well. As long as you don't cheat in multiplayer games, and you have fun despite your cheating, no harm no foul. Good luck have fun.
Underdawg
King
So you say it's not cheating? Because from I can understand you were just talking about how a game is ultimately to "have fun", but not really about why or why not it's cheating...
Frankly, giving yourself an extra resource or two is in essence cheating because the starting land in your capital determines quite a bit... Heck I even think regenerating a map until you get an uber uber capital is cheating (uber: two gold, flood plains, 1-2 food resources, couple hills, forests)
Depending on the resource added and if you see anything while adding, it can be a gamebreaker. I love wonder-GP-farming, how about I add stone and marble to my fat cross right from the get go so I don't have to do what I usually do, which is to found cities in godforsaken places just to nab some marble or stone early on?
Or if you are a warmonger and give yourself copper?
Heck even giving yourself extra food makes it a lot easier to build workers and settlers early on.
If you give yourself Uranium or something, that's less of an impact since you can't see it from the start of the game. Not as gamebreaking but still a potentially big change, especially since you can't help but see what other resources are nearby as well, such as iron, and know where to expand to.
It is also fun to discover previously hidden resources when you discover, for instance, Iron Working. WB decreases that fun, perhaps more than it apparently increases fun, depending on the person--and aside from the "I wonder if I would have done as well if I played by the rules" feeling.
Anyway, what you are describing, and what the original comment described, is cheating. It is certainly possible to have fun while cheating, and yes, the ultimate point of a game is to have fun, cheating or no cheating. This goes for regenerating maps, reloading, or whatever floats your boat. Civ IV begs to be modded, and heck yes you can have fun with mods as well. As long as you don't cheat in multiplayer games, and you have fun despite your cheating, no harm no foul. Good luck have fun.
What he said.
Spearthrower
Thrower of spears
While it obviously *is* cheating... I think there was a fair point made.... regenerating maps is also cheating, but one which is a lot easier to fool yourself into believing is legit! 
While it obviously *is* cheating... I think there was a fair point made.... regenerating maps is also cheating, but one which is a lot easier to fool yourself into believing is legit!
Depends on how many times you regen. I personally only regen if I'm screwed like if I start off away from any rivers, and next to 2 silks and a plains sheep, with desert on one side and miles of plains on the other.
DrewBledsoe
Veteran QB
Yep use "lock modified assets" all the time, that way, you can't even if you're tempted. A genuine mistake, i.e. a mouse slip or something can always be corrected (I would say fairly) by loading an autosave from a turn ot 2 before.
Spearthrower
Thrower of spears
How can it depend on the number of times you do it? Surely even once is cheating?
Don't get me wrong, I personally wouldn't play every start the game gave me.... I play Marathon, Huge maps..... and I really have no interest in sitting through 40 hours of a really chronic position (like one of those 8 grassland tiles amidst 90 tundra and ice starts).
The game is meant to be fun, and in Single Player you can't really cheat, you're simply customising your game to meet your fun requirement.
Let's be fair and accept that rerolling, modifying the map etc are all abuses of the game mechanics in order to achieve more fun from the game.
While I wouldn't add resources, I can't really take the high horse when I am happy to reroll if the start position is terrible - surely that's just a more random way of achieving the same end?
meatwad4289
Prince
- Joined
- Dec 2, 2005
- Messages
- 595
are you serious thats the no cheat? how long has this been there? I swear the only honest games I could play are multiplayer because of temptation lol. I sucked at multiplayer after warlords came out, warlords came otu and i got use to the.. I dont have any iron? now i do.. He built my GWall? now he didnt. stuff..
Thank god.. i can have an honest game lol. I quit the last 3 games i played because it went from harmless spawning a few explorers or building roads real quick to Creating massive Armies of rifle men while everyone else was still Bowman and mace men lol. Ofcourse I'd get screwed over the economy would go into a depression where I'd still lose money at 0 and after attacking 1civ Everyone would crawl up my arse and I wouldnt be able to produce troops to replace any that had fallen, nor defend what was taken. now all i need is the Confederacy to be made on this game and i can finally enjoy it again... lol
