World Wonders

[Thalassicus]

I sorta like the citystate bonus the Kremlin has. It works well in conjunction with the defense bonus since citystate-focused empires are typically small ones.

 

[mitsho]

You could switch the effects. The Khmer who built Angkor Wat had a lot of influence on other empires at the height of their rule so it makes sense. The Russian Krepost already posseses a landgrabbing bonus, so with Kremlin and the Russian Expanse over Siberia would makes sense. But of course, the landgrabbing bonus would then come even later and you'd basically had combined the two wonders...

Angkor Wat made Priests better in Civ4 and I think that is a fitting effect since there is a religious tone to the city. But also a Cultural one. So could it make Artists (and/or merchants) produce one more gold or culture?

 

[Thalassicus]

Thanks for the historical background! That's helpful.

Any of those ideas are technically feasible with the tools we have. I like the idea of an artist-specific bonus. The number of artist slots is very limited until later in the game, so how about...

• Angkor Wat: +50 with every citystate.
• Cristo Redentor: +2 of every yield for Artists
• Kremlin: Minimum 2-tile border radius for every city, plus -25% border expansion costs

 

[Sneaks]

Those all look both intriguing and unique. The new Kremlin might prove to be OP, but honestly not sure due to the later era in which it can be built (most land grabbed) and 2 tiles not being that extreme.

 

[Nuukov]

Yeah. I like the Kremlim ^^
ALL YOUR RESOURCES ARE BELONG TO US!

 

[mitsho]

To be fair, the Khmer Empire was at its time one of the few big empires in the region, they were not known for specific influence more than say the Ottomans were with their Vassal system or the Habsburgs... Khmer was known for high population (see baray) and culture/religion.

The question with the new Kremlin for me is if it takes away other civilizations tiles?

 

[Sneaks]

Something I have meant to ask: What is the rationale behind Pyramids receiving a free Settler rather than Worker? I think both options are lovely, but was curious as to the change reasoning.

 

[Seek]

Thanks for the historical background! That's helpful.

Any of those ideas are technically feasible with the tools we have. I like the idea of an artist-specific bonus. The number of artist slots is very limited until later in the game, so how about...

• Angkor Wat: +50 with every citystate.
• Cristo Redentor: +2 of every yield for Artists
• Kremlin: Minimum 2-tile border radius for every city, plus -25% border expansion costs

So Angkor Wat has no lasting value? That has no precedent in a WW and strikes me as wrong - perhaps an influence degrade modifier or extra culture could be added so that it's worth conquering.

CR looks awesome!

Kremlin does seem somewhat redundant with the Tradition opener and Stonhenge, but would be a fun build after a big Rex and certainly is better than the old Angkor Wat.

Re: Other WW changes in 9.1:
Why the reversion of Chichen Itza? I'm not crazy about this change.

Sydney Opera House is now a must build - great change here.

 

[Thalassicus]

@mitsho
Stonehenge and the Kremlin expand into unclaimed tiles, like normal or expansion (not like Culture Bombs).

@Sneaks
The free worker form of the pyramids is generally considered underwhelming compared to other Ancient Wonders in strategy discussions I follow on the main Civ forums. I felt this in my games too. Settlers are more expensive and valuable than workers, so that in of itself is a buff. I also think a free settler is more fun because it lets us build one without slowing city growth.

@Seek
When the wonder is conquered it gives the conqueror the bonus. I actually didn't think about that until now... could keep it or not depending on your opinion. It's not possible to add an influence degrade modifier.


I feel the combined effect of 50% and 4 on Chichen Itza is overpowered, from personal experience and discussions I've seen. There's evidence to back this up on the strategy forums, such as its ranking at #3 on the Wonder Elimination Thread, a conversation I've been following closely. I figure either 25%|4 or 50%|0 is better.

I chose the mixed option because otherwise we end up with extremes of goldenage performance. Consider the Taj Mahal or Persia... If we get the 50% bonus it's a big advantage for our strategy, and if we miss it that's a huge loss. At 25% we have a less extreme difference between winning or losing the wonder. It still helps but isn't as big a deal if we don't get it.

 

[Txurce]

I feel 50% 4 Chichen Itza is overpowered, both from personal experience and discussions I've seen. There's evidence to back this up on the strategy forums, such as its ranking at #3 on the Wonder Elimination Thread, a conversation I've been following closely. I figure either 25%|4 or 50%|0 is better. I chose the mixed-bonus option because otherwise we end up with extremes of goldenage performance. Consider a game with Persia... If we get the 50% bonus it's a colossal advantage for our strategy, and if we miss it that's a huge loss. At 25% we have a less extreme difference between winning or losing the wonder. It still helps goldenage strategies but isn't as big a deal if we don't get it.[/QUOTE]

This is a tough one. 50% longer GA's seems a lot more fun than 25%/4 to me. Now what's worse: the effect 50/0 has on Persia, or the fact that 25/4 isn't particularly desirable?

EDIT: The change to Angkor Wat is original, powerful and desirable... but to play devil's advocate, doesn't it do the same to an effort toward a Diplomatic Victory as Chichen Itza does to Persia?

 

[Thalassicus]

I think either method is okay, and don't really mind. If there's a general opinion the 50%|0 version is better I could change it back.

 

[Seek]

@mitsho
Stonehenge and the Kremlin expand into unclaimed tiles, like normal or expansion (not like Culture Bombs).

Is the culture bomb effect possible? Now *that* would be an exciting wonder!

@Seek
When the wonder is conquered it gives the conqueror the bonus. I actually didn't think about that until now... could keep it or not depending on your opinion. It's not possible to add an influence degrade modifier.

Ah, that's too bad. Just for clarification, does the "+50 " affect CSs with whom you are at war with, or does it only affect CSs with whom you have neutral or positive relations with?

 

[Thalassicus]

The culture bomb effect would be easy to do, but since the AI wouldn't know how to use it offensively, I decided to expand like borders normally do. Maybe when we get access to the game core this can change.

I had forgotten about the wartime situation and will fix that. Thank you for bringing it up. It should only affect citystates we're at peace with, since wartime influence is locked at maximum anger. I did remember to check if we've met the citystate... otherwise it'd have some crazy map-reveal potential.

 

[mitsho]

I guess +50 in peaceful city states is powerful enough! As for CI, what about +33%/2?

 

[Sneaks]

I think the Chichen is fine at 50%. It was good wonder before that was certainly extremely powerful in the hands of Persia but no more so than Hagia Sophia is with Babylon.

 

[Seek]

The change to Angkor Wat is original, powerful and desirable... but to play devil's advocate, doesn't it do the same to an effort toward a Diplomatic Victory as Chichen Itza does to Persia?

I don't think so unless it can be leveraged by conquering the city with the wonder right before a UN vote takes place *and* having a large bankroll to bring everyone up to allied status - it comes too early to be OP imo.

 

[Txurce]

I don't think so unless it can be leveraged by conquering the city with the wonder right before a UN vote takes place *and* having a large bankroll to bring everyone up to allied status - it comes too early to be OP imo.

I didn't think Thal felt CI is OP for Persia... just highly influential as to degree of success. I saw a similarity here, although (agreed) not quite to the same degree.

 

[Thalassicus]

Right... a 50%/0happy chichen isn't overpowered, just tends to result in wide swings of how successful a game might be. Some people do like these extremes in games, though... look at Spain for example. There's nothing wrong with having some of it based on luck.

 

[Sneaks]

Right... a 50%/0happy chichen isn't overpowered, just tends to result in wide swings of how successful a game might be. Some people do like these extremes in games, though... look at Spain for example. There's nothing wrong with having some of it based on luck.

I sometimes view the CI as a must have wonder for certain strategies (diplo wins, primarily). Otherwise I usually skip it in favor of PT or ND, both of which I believe are superior and relatively closely located in the tech tree. In such case, I find it a great world wonder. Any wonder which is a huge boost in certain strategies but not make or break, as well as being insignificant in others (conquest), tend to be my favorites.

 

[Thalassicus]

I like specialized wonders too, it's why I made Stonehenge and Oracle more focused.