Worst Leader?

The carrack's pretty cool if you play on a map with a lot of islands. I understand it's great for Terra as well.

it's best if you can't reach the other landmasses by galleys, so that you stretch out your advantage over the other civs. for lots of islands, i love Willem. but i'm not supposed to be talking about my favorites am i?

i play by mood and love to see how i do with diplomacy, so i hate being pericles for example because then alex can't come to the party!

Mao doesn't look that great for my style. his UU is fun but the UB seems good just for culture games, i haven't tried china. and poor Wang Kon, his UU got a major nerf with the siege changes. he often did really well vs. the other AIs in warlords, i don't think i've seen him in a BtS game yet tho.

i don't think isabella's the worst, but i do think the UU and UB could use some pretty big boosts. spiritual is far and away the best trait for my style, and i'm more a fan of expansive than a lot of others are. i want to try her out soon.

Legal_My_Deagle i hear what you're saying, but my point wasn't about the samurai. it's that his gunpowder draftees get 3 free promos. i love making toy soldiers at the click of a button during panic time ;). and i'd not feel castrated :p.
 
I dislike Joao the most, i'm not one for early ships as a UU, particularly in the maps i play...

I think Egypt's UB is poor too....


I personally like Augustus Caesar as i can't stop going for early war...:crazyeye:
 
I think that Dan Quayle of america is the worst...

Look at his trait: Uncultural (-2 culture per turn) and Expensive (-10% gold each turn)...

on the Other hand, Meiji of Japan is overpowered: Industrious and Philosophical? :eek:
 
Worst Leader is the Incan Leader (can't remember his name offhand).

Industrious is a terrible combination with Financial (because you're forced to choose one or the other until you have well-developed cities, by which time the critical early wonders have already been built).

His UU (the Quechua) sucks (basically a warrior with resistance to archers). The attack is obsolete as of spearmen (which EVERYONE gets, real soon), and is wiped out by Axemen (which EVERYONE gets, immediately after spearmen).

His UB (the Terrace) is just downright pathetic. Oooooo... a Granary that produces 2 culture... OOooooo... THAT'LL tip game-balance all right.

Incans suck harder than Spiderman 3.

As mentioned by others before, I reckon H.C. is the DADDY:king:.
In a recent thread on the Best Combo, HC featured heavily.

Personally, any leader with any of PRO/AGG/IMP and late UU's / UB's would be up top in my list of worst leader.
 
I dislike the protective trait, but if exist a creative or industious protective guy (maybe Stalin) would be great for a cultural victory, very conservative. All in all every leader is fine, give me a bad leader and a good map and i'll have fun.
 
This is a reply to several people who gave some pretty compelling arguments about HC. My response... Really?

:confused:

REALLLLLY???

I mean, honestly, the very first time I played him, I thought "Wow!!! This is, like, the best combination of traits EVARRRR!!!" and was super excited. After all, who wouldn't be excited about being able to spam wonders, make money, AND found Bud/Hin early on?

But then I played him. And ended up low-end of the totem pole, even on Prince (at the time I was still attempting Monarch sometimes, but since then, have gone back to Prince, since I have less time to micromanage since the boy was born).

The first track I tried was founding early religion, like Buddism and without Spiritual, it sorta hindered all my civics switches. So I had to be really judicious on when I'd switch civics. Fair enough, but then I either lose literal turns from the anarchy every time I want to make an effective switch (like slavery, or organized religion, etc), or I have to lose several turns worth of "effectiveness" by witholding the benefit of such a switch. This wouldn't be a problem in and of itself, except that when you're ALSO pumping turn after turn into religious tech, it really hampers your research in other areas. And by the time you manage to score "writing", competing religions have already spread about and your diplomatic relations start off in the red without so much as a "how's yer father". Normally the cons of a religious track are at least offset by the civic versatility that comes with the Spiritual trait, but when you lose those revolution turns, those cons really bite deep.

So I gave up on the religion track with HC. So instead, I tried game where I'd use my UB terrace for an early advantage, and research Pottery first. Seemed a natural fit. Pottery would give me access to Terraces AND Cottages, and I could use the Granary to expand my fat cross. Then I realized that you really not efficient to build a Granary till you hit around a size 4+ city, and I really need access to my fat cross before that point. So I either have to waste time building a monument in new cities (which defeats the whole purpose of getting border expansion from Granary culture), or I have to put everything in the entire city on hold (including workers, walls, barracks, libraries, etc) while I build a terrace, which takes FOREVER at lower populations. So the whole idea that "you get the benefit of the creative trait" is bollocks. The creative trait has at LEAST a 15-30 turn advantage (5 turns from city founding till culture expands to fat cross access) over terraces (Something like a 15 turn minimum build time starting at 1 population for a civ with Expansive trait as far as I know, plus 5 turns culture build before border expansion), which is significant. And of course, I can't lay the bloody cottages because instead of a worker, I'm churning out a granary. And even if I have a worker, I'm having to mine rather than lay cottages, to speed up the granary, or if I happen to have cottages, I still have to place pop on the mines, rather than the cottages, if I want that granary to be there in any sort of timely fahsion. Result, the Terrace really, really sucks, unless my goal is to spread my culture beyond the fat cross rapidly, which is not typically my goal.

So I decided to break with tradition and chase Wonders with the Industrial trait. Most of the time, I don't mess with Wonders, unless they are critical to my strategy or something I think would really put me ahead in an existing game, there's just too many other things I can do with those turns. But I figured with Industrial, maybe it'd be worth it. Problem one... in the dozen or so games I played, stone and marble were ALWAYS on a different continent from me. ALWAYS. This was in Warlords, granted, so this might have changed, but I began to go off the assumption that HC would always start away from any good wonder-fodder resource. Most of the time, I couldn't even get copper. Needless to say, this state of affairs alone put a sour taste in my mouth. Add to it that I'm not real up on Wonder strategies, since I hardly ever mess with them, so I couldn't min/max my returns as efficiently as perhaps I could have if I was used to seeing each wonder's effect in-game. If I wanted to produce a wonder, without any resource-fodder, that meant popping my population on mines, not cottages, which means the benefit from financial was minimal at best. End result, my tech, population, AND gold would suffer every time I wanted to build a wonder, and often a civ with access to the complimentary resource in "a far away land" would build it sooner than I would, which would give me some gold, but certainly less gold than I could have produced if I'd just focused on the financial trait.

So I gave up on the Wonder building, and tried Financial and did "meh" with it. The lack of a complimentary UB, the lack of a complimentary trait, the slow start towards pottery (aka no roads or agriculture as starting techs), no fast-workers, meant that I would, from the get-go, be less effective taking the financial high-road than other, better suited candidates. I mean, lots of gold is always nice, but when no other aspect of your civ really meshes with it, unless you start near some good commerce-producing resources, then you're just another fat wallet for some other civ to come in and steal your chickens. Game after game, I ended up just barely clinging to 2nd or 3rd place, while some other, better situate civ would just increase the gap between 2nd and 1st till it was in the hundreds.

I haven't tried Quechua rushing, but frankly, rushing isn't really my style. If I wanted to play a game like that, I'd just play Age of Empires.

So, perhaps I'm just playing Civ "wrong", but the above is why I still feel that HC is the worst Leader in the game.
 
thelibra:

I think you answered yourself about why you didn't succeed with Huayna--you say you're not really up on wonder strategies. It is a must to plan your wonders if you're playing a leader like Huayna. I've had both cultural and space race victories with him.

From what you have described above, I would think that building (chopping) stonehenge early might have cured alot of the difficulties.
 
thelibra: sounds like you pursue a rigorous religious strategy for HC, whereas I just get the early religion, chop stonehenge and then deploy the great prophet.

I don't actively pursue any of the religious techs from then on (although I do move to organized religion once I have monotheism). I rely on trade and time for the religion to spread out to my cities, and the extra gold I get is just really a bonus which helps keep my science % up when I boom.

I agree that a strong religious strategy is not good without spiritual.
 
Nothing to do with HC's playability... his traits are decent, but I think he's annoying.
 
George Bush...
Technically he isn't a leader now, he really isn't "leading" anyone anymore. No one is listening to him, at best all he does now is veto, and even as Commander in Chief he's outsourced Iraq to Petraeus & pretty much ignoring Afghanistan ...
 
thelibra: next time, try the obvious strategy. Spam Quechas. And I do mean, spam them. 3 aint gonna cut it, just pump them out like there's no tomorrow, and don't bother building anything else.

Instead of building workers, you'll capture them from your enemies. Instead of building cities, you'll capture your enemies' capitals. Meanwhile, if you want a religion, the diplomatic hits won't matter because your enemies will be dead.

Then, once you've got a huge empire to work with, spam cottages and wonders and cruise to an easy victory.
 
count another vote for charlie... his UU and UB look nice, but that's it. plus he has the burger king thing going on, and Rome needs no burger king.
 
Yeah, except Landsknecht are pretty rocking, and he starts with Mysticism which is perfect for an early religion grab. Like Justinian, his incredibly weak traits are overshadowed by his amazing techs and UU/UB.

Genghis Khan is not the worst leader in the game. Imperialistic is the worst trait in the game, but Aggressive is quite powerful, especially in junction with his amazing UU and the synergy it gets with the UB. You can rape the entire old world with ten Keshiks double promoted.

Since the worst traits are Imp/Cre, and the Russian UU is trashy now, and the incredibly strong UB isn't available until way late into the game where the outcome is usually almost always decided, I'll go with Catherine. Followed by Survayaman, with one crappy trait and one mediocre trait, plus the worst UU in the game, and one of the worst UBs. Which is strange because in my games, Survayaman almost always has the strongest empire. Guess he just has a really smart AI.
 
Tokugawa looks like the worst leader to me.

Traits - All that Toku has going for him here are super-powered rookie gunpowder units.

UU - A maceman's worst enemy in Civ4 is a Knight, and first-strike capabilities won't help here.

UB - Come's too late, and generally there are worse things to worry about other than having ineffective coal plants if you don't have coal. UB should probably be Kabuki Theater or Koi Garden.:crazyeye:

And about the Ballista Elephant, War Elephants in general got a huge buff in BtS, so any good bonus here would be too much.
 
Yeah, except Landsknecht are pretty rocking, and he starts with Mysticism which is perfect for an early religion grab. Like Justinian, his incredibly weak traits are overshadowed by his amazing techs and UU/UB.

Justinian has 1 strong (Spi) and 1 fairly weak trait (Imp can be good if used correctly). Charlie has the 2 weakest traits (agreed upon by most people), and the Landsknetch doesn't take cities defended by Longbows unless mass seige support. You can do just as well with Horse Archers + Axemen + Catapults as you can with Landsknecht

Genghis Khan is not the worst leader in the game. Imperialistic is the worst trait in the game, but Aggressive is quite powerful, especially in junction with his amazing UU and the synergy it gets with the UB. You can rape the entire old world with ten Keshiks double promoted.

Protective is the worst trait in the game IMO. At least IMP gives super-whipped settlers and fast GGs, protective gives... fast walls, CG I, and Drill I. The only useful bonus is Drill I, and only if you're units are strong enough to get most first strikes to hit.

Since the worst traits are Imp/Cre, and the Russian UU is trashy now, and the incredibly strong UB isn't available until way late into the game where the outcome is usually almost always decided, I'll go with Catherine. Followed by Survayaman, with one crappy trait and one mediocre trait, plus the worst UU in the game, and one of the worst UBs. Which is strange because in my games, Survayaman almost always has the strongest empire. Guess he just has a really smart AI.

Creative is a really under-rated trait by you. You get a choice of 20 tiles around a city almost instantly, meaning you can leverage a powerful lead from your extra tiles much faster than you would be able to otherwise. Also, you don't need to whip Monuments saving you pop. Plus fast Libraries. Its a very strong trait when (ab)used correctly.
 
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