Would the Lord Of the Rings been better off is Sauron won?

[sophie]

As far as super evil villians, I have kind of always wondered stuff like why Sauramon allies with Sauron. He's a wizard, not sure if he's human, but what's he going to do if man is all killed? Just chill with orcs? I never understood it. But maybe he thinks Sauron will let him rule the survivors.

Saruman's flaw, even before the War of the Rings, was hubris. The Istari were sent to Middle Earth to advise and aid the Men and Elves in their battle against Sauron, but not to lead them. Saruman, eldest, wisest, and most powerful of the order always meddled too personally in historical events. In particular, his assumption of the governorship over Isengard is not really the sort of thing the Istari are supposed to be doing. Compare this to Gandalf, who sees a hobbit in need of cultural or personal enrichment through an adventure, and sees a band of Dwarves looking to reclaim their homeland and in need of a burglar to help them, and sees the need in the coming times, to rid Erebor of Smaug and return the region to the hands of Good. Gandalf could drive Smaug out of the mountain himself, or at the least summon an army to assist him. But instead, he puts the dwarves into contact with Bilbo and gives them subtle (or at times not-so-subtle) nudges in the right direction.

Saruman's fall is a result of this hubris. He gets a Palantir and starts communicating with Sauron. Saruman believes all the time that he can manipulate Sauron to unite men and elves and achieve an era of greater prosperity through the Ring. Remember the conversations between the Uruks who capture Merry and Pippin in book 2. They're bringing the ring to Isengard, and not to Mordor (so that Saruman can claim it and then betray Sauron). The problem is that Saruman thereby becomes the classic mark - the guy who thinks he's too smart to get conned by the conman.

 

[civvver]

Hmm, I didn't get all that from the movie, but it's been a while. I read fellowship book and about half of two towers but found it slow. I think because it's written as two parts, all of the trio's part and then sam and frodo. I thought saruman was basically capitulating to sauron because he saw his rise as inevitable and the other side a losing position.

 

[Lexicus]

Invade Elf Heaven.

Interestingly, Sauron in the Second Age allowed himself to be captured by the Númenóreans under their prideful king Ar-Pharazôn, and taken back to Númenór where (with the help of the One Ring's power) he basically manipulates the Númenóreans into doing just this. Long story short it doesn't end well for them.

wisest,

Olórin proved wiser.

Hmm, I didn't get all that from the movie, but it's been a while. I read fellowship book and about half of two towers but found it slow. I think because it's written as two parts, all of the trio's part and then sam and frodo. I thought saruman was basically capitulating to sauron because he saw his rise as inevitable and the other side a losing position.

Most of that backstory is either in the Silmarillion or in the appendices of Return of the King. In the film trilogy it kind of makes it seem like Saruman just got corrupted by Sauron via the palantír of Orthanc, but really in the book he had betrayed the White Council IIRC sometime around the events of The Hobbit, as he became too interested in Sauron's ringlore and became ensared by greed for the One Ring. He wanted the ring for himself the whole time and basically, as Owen says, he pretends to be Sauron's vassal while intending to take the ring himself, and at the end of Book 3 or beginning of Book 5 (can't remember which exactly) Gandalf remarks that Sauron is probably secretly happy to be trapped in Orthanc by the Ents, beyond reach of Sauron's revenge for trying to take the Ring himself.

 

[Dachs]

Saruman's flaw, even before the War of the Rings, was hubris. The Istari were sent to Middle Earth to advise and aid the Men and Elves in their battle against Sauron, but not to lead them. Saruman, eldest, wisest, and most powerful of the order always meddled too personally in historical events. In particular, his assumption of the governorship over Isengard is not really the sort of thing the Istari are supposed to be doing. Compare this to Gandalf, who sees a hobbit in need of cultural or personal enrichment through an adventure, and sees a band of Dwarves looking to reclaim their homeland and in need of a burglar to help them, and sees the need in the coming times, to rid Erebor of Smaug and return the region to the hands of Good. Gandalf could drive Smaug out of the mountain himself, or at the least summon an army to assist him. But instead, he puts the dwarves into contact with Bilbo and gives them subtle (or at times not-so-subtle) nudges in the right direction.

Saruman's fall is a result of this hubris. He gets a Palantir and starts communicating with Sauron. Saruman believes all the time that he can manipulate Sauron to unite men and elves and achieve an era of greater prosperity through the Ring.

Apparently, manipulation is fine so long as you're manipulating the right people.

 

[onejayhawk]

Saruman's flaw, even before the War of the Rings, was hubris. The Istari were sent to Middle Earth to advise and aid the Men and Elves in their battle against Sauron, but not to lead them. Saruman, eldest, wisest, and most powerful of the order always meddled too personally in historical events. In particular, his assumption of the governorship over Isengard is not really the sort of thing the Istari are supposed to be doing. Compare this to Gandalf, who sees a hobbit in need of cultural or personal enrichment through an adventure, and sees a band of Dwarves looking to reclaim their homeland and in need of a burglar to help them, and sees the need in the coming times, to rid Erebor of Smaug and return the region to the hands of Good. Gandalf could drive Smaug out of the mountain himself, or at the least summon an army to assist him. But instead, he puts the dwarves into contact with Bilbo and gives them subtle (or at times not-so-subtle) nudges in the right direction.

Saruman's fall is a result of this hubris. He gets a Palantir and starts communicating with Sauron. Saruman believes all the time that he can manipulate Sauron to unite men and elves and achieve an era of greater prosperity through the Ring. Remember the conversations between the Uruks who capture Merry and Pippin in book 2. They're bringing the ring to Isengard, and not to Mordor (so that Saruman can claim it and then betray Sauron). The problem is that Saruman thereby becomes the classic mark - the guy who thinks he's too smart to get conned by the conman.

More like the guy who is too smart to succumb to substance abuse. Considering that his native power is considerable and comparable to Sauron's, he knuckles under very quickly.

J

 

[yung.carl.jung]

Go home, Varg Vikerns, influential second-wave black metal musician and convicted murderer, you are drunk.

Have you seen his tabletop game? It's a disturbing amalgamation of antisemitism and islamophobia, obsession over tolkien and embarrassing völkisch-style lore

https://myfarog.org/

 

[Traitorfish]

Apparently, manipulation is fine so long as you're manipulating the right people.

We've established that Tolkien was Catholic, yes.

 

[Hygro]

Have you seen his tabletop game? It's a disturbing amalgamation of antisemitism and islamophobia, obsession over tolkien and embarrassing völkisch-style lore

https://myfarog.org/

This is the homebrew of homebrews.