Would you Abort Hitler's Foetus?

[MummyMan]

Guns don't kill people, radical pro-life'ers kill people

 

[Double Barrel]

I think Hitler had a screw loose and would have walked down the path of evil regardless of his circumstances.

Modern psychology has determined that genetics and chemical imbalances in the brain are real science as it pertains to an individual's disposition and (partial) personality. Sure, it is the age old argument of biology vs. environment, but, IMO, Hitler would have been some kind of criminal regardless of his upbringing.

There are too many examples of people in "good" environments committing evil acts, and so many people that were raised in less than spectacular surroundings that ended up being good people, for me to place the burden of Hitler's evilness entirely on his environment and life's experiences.

On another note about Hitler, I've also read that he was into the occult and bestiality, as well. I wouldn't be surprised.

 

[meldor]

Originally posted by MummyMan
Guns don't kill people, radical pro-life'ers kill people

A perfect example of why I won't debate the issue on these boards.

 

[Dr Alimentado]

Originally posted by Antonius Block


First to Dr. Alimentado, who says killing anybody is wrong- does that mean you were against the war or would have been against assassinating Saddam? It's fine if your answer is yes, I'm looking for consistency.

I say killing is wrong, yes I was against the war, and yes I would have been opposed to assassinating Saddam.

I deliberately ignored/side-stepped the abortion issue as I wanted to make the moral choice the time-travellers and not the mothers...

 

[PantheraTigris2]

Assuming this scenario really was the case presented in front of me, well, no - I'd find another way... such as being a mentor for the kid as he grows up. Make sure he goes to church, and gets involved in a good circle of friends. Find a nice gal, too. Adolf wasn't born a monster, he just became one. If he had kept his mind sane, and his heart free of evil, he could/would have been a great contributor to society. No one is hopeless. Just because the boy was born, doesn't mean he HAS to be "Der Führer" of "Das III. Reich". Give the kid a hobby or two - football, auto racing, or something. He's just a boy/man, like so many others.

Btw, I personally believe 'time travel' is not possible - mainly because "time" doesn't really even exist. It's just a man-made chronology measurement based on local astronomy (cycle of 'Sun' & 'Earth'). There is no giant camera recording everything, that you could simply 'rewind'. It doesn't work that way. However, Einstein's theories on the "spacetime continuum" - are quite interesting. And well, he was right about several other wild, far out ideas, so... I don't know... maybe...

 

[Sultan Bhargash]

Wow, you just blew my mind Panthera. I'm of the opinion that every actually happens all at once but we don't see it that way (usually) because we are 3 and not 4 dimensional beings.

@Meldor, sorry you're backing away, I would like to hear out your thoughts about rape some more, because the more I think about it, the more horrible your position becomes. It means that if I was dead set on impregnating a woman and didn't care about the consequences, I could be sure that one successful rape would suddenly add my genes to the Bush family tree, or the Kennedys, or that pretty girl down the street. All I have to do is rape her at the right time, and the government would ensure that she had my baby. Disgusting, isn't it? Isn't it?

 

[Lt. 'Killer' M.]

Let us also assume you have ten more mintues then you go back in time to the present... well, I'd abort the ****er.

 

[gael]

Originally posted by PantheraTigris2
Assuming this scenario really was the case presented in front of me, well, no - I'd find another way... such as being a mentor for the kid as he grows up. Make sure he goes to church, and gets involved in a good circle of friends. Find a nice gal, too. Adolf wasn't born a monster, he just became one. If he had kept his mind sane, and his heart free of evil, he could/would have been a great contributor to society. No one is hopeless. Just because the boy was born, doesn't mean he HAS to be "Der Führer" of "Das III. Reich". Give the kid a hobby or two - football, auto racing, or something. He's just a boy/man, like so many others.

Btw, I personally believe 'time travel' is not possible - mainly because "time" doesn't really even exist. It's just a man-made chronology measurement based on local astronomy (cycle of 'Sun' & 'Earth'). There is no giant camera recording everything, that you could simply 'rewind'. It doesn't work that way. However, Einstein's theories on the "spacetime continuum" - are quite interesting. And well, he was right about several other wild, far out ideas, so... I don't know... maybe...

You make sense, but the thought of going back in time to teach hiltler how to play catch and get laid is mad.

 

[meldor]

Originally posted by Antonius Block
Wow, you just blew my...
@Meldor, sorry you're backing away, I would like to hear out your thoughts about rape some more, because the more I think about it, the more horrible your position becomes. It means that if I was dead set on impregnating a woman and didn't care about the consequences, I could be sure that one successful rape would suddenly add my genes to the Bush family tree, or the Kennedys, or that pretty girl down the street. All I have to do is rape her at the right time, and the government would ensure that she had my baby. Disgusting, isn't it? Isn't it?

OK, I will bite on this, but just for you.

You make several assumption first of all.

1) That the killing of an unborn child is perfectly fine. For this I would ask you to answer on your moral grounds the question I posed above. Namely, if a woman is killed while carrying a child. She is legally dead. Yet the child can still be delivered live. Does this not say to you that the mother and child are two completely independant lives? Does this not say that no matter how dependant the child is on the sufferance of the mother, that is a seperate life and so is entitled to every human right afforded any other human being?

2) You assume that rape is done for procreation or pleasure and not for hatred and pain. And on top of that, it is almost unversal practice to do a DNC procedure on a rape victim to recover evidence and ensure that they don't get pregnant. I would think you would be hard pressed to find very many cases in this country of a woman getting pregnant by rape. It is a strawman arguement. Just as is the arguement that women will die by the thousands if abortion is illegal. Try to find the statistics on how many women died due to illegal abortions before Roe vs. Wade. I have tried and can't find any that are not based on hearsay and half truths. I could find no original source. If you can please show me. I don't want a NOW link with someone quoting somaeone else, who quoted someone else. I want original statistic done by someone looking at cause of death. Also, while you are there, try and find any statistics on the number of women who die from abortions today. It does happen, but no one keeps the stats on what the complications are and how many die. I know of several woman who have had severe problems and one who died, but no one wants to confess what the real numbers are. This also goes to the coverup of the horrible side effects of the "morning after" pill. The high number of women who experience abnormally long and heavy bleeding due to it. Shock and other complications. Everyone is silent on these things. Supposedly it can have side effects in up to 10% of the women who use it, but everyone keeps saying how wonderfull it is and how much we should expand its use.

3) You also assume that the government is going to force anyone to do anything. I don't really care if abortion is legal or not. They plain fact is that it is immoral and murder. The person performing the procedure and the person who has it preformed must answer for that not before me but before God. I am not the one with authority to sit in judgement of them. That said, I think it should be illegal or a lot harder to obtain, just for the reason that it doesn't make it an easy choice. One thing no one wants to touch is the long term mental effects the abortion has on the women who have them. Some studies suggest that these women are more likely to have strong fellings of guilt and depression, many years later. But again, it is taboo for anyone to dare to study it. Just like the link made to breast cancer. The pro-abortionist disclaimed the research even before they had in evidence to the contrary. Why? Because they can not allow anything to stand that migfht suggest that the abortion industry is anything but prefect and natural.

4) The history of those who push abortion the hardest. The Planned Parenthood group was founded by a lady by the name of Margaret Sanger. To keepo this sort of on topic lets look at a few quotes by our two heros:

Adolf Hitler - Dictator of Nazi Germany "The demand that defective people be prevented from propagating equally defective offspring. . . represents the most humane act of mankind." Mein Kampf, vol. 1, ch. 10

Margaret Sanger - Founder of Planned Parenthood ". . .we prefer the policy of immediate sterilizarion, of making sure that parenthood is ' absolutely prohibed ' to the feeble-minded." The Pivot of Civilization, p102

Do you think this is just interesting happenstance? No, Ms. Sanger was a big follower of Mr. Hitler and published here in the US many of the Nazi postion papers on Eugeneics. Want another sample:

"Birth Control which has been criticized as negative and destructive, is really the greatest and most truly eugenic method, and its adoption as part of the program of Eugenics would immediately give a concrete and realistic power to that science. . . as the most constructive and necessary of the means to racial health."
Margaret Sanger. The Pivot of Civilization. Brentano's Press, NY, 1922, p 189.

The italics are mine of course.

There just waqsn't a casual tie between the Nazis and Ms. Sanger and her followers. One of the founding board member of the group that became Planned Parenthood was Dr. Lothrop Stoddard (who authored "The Rising Tide of Color Against White Supremacy" and another praising the Nazi sterilization law).

In April of 1933, Birth Control Review (The original publication of Ms. Sanger for all things pro-Eugenics) published an article by Dr. Ernst Rubin, who was Hitler's director of genetic sterilization and a founder of the Nazi Society for Racial Hygiene. Lets sample a quote form that shall we:

"The danger to the community of the unsegregated feeble-minded woman is more evident. Most dangerous are the middle and high grades living at large who, despite the fact that their defect is not easily recognizable, should nevertheless be prevented from procreation. . . In my view we should act without delay." Prof. Dr. Ernst Rudin, head of Nazi Germany's eugenics program. "Eugenics Sterlization: An Urgent Need." - Birth Control Review, Volume XVII, Number 4 (April 1933), pp. 102-4.

Sound like something to get behind doesn't it. Do you every wonder why Planned Parenthood has over 50% of its clinics in areas that would serve Blacks and Hispanics? Do you ever wonder why they push abortion for women who are "too poor to afford" a child? Do you ever wonder why 1 in every three black pregnancies in the US end with abortion? Disgusting isn't it? Isn't it?

5) You assume that the crime of rape goes unpunished. That there are no consquences to the act. You are causally going to force several women to have your children as if ther won't be someone looking for you. As if you won't be prosecuted for these acts. If 5-10 years in prison isn't going to deter you from raping, then why would someone having an abortion? And once a rape is commited and that exterely rare event of a pregnancy occurs, why do you wish to compound one immoral act with another?

Yes, I balance my sympathy for the woman with these thougthts:

Here you are a nice unborn child. You have just become self aware or arein that process. Things are warm and wet. You can feel your mother surronding you. The beat of her heart and her normal movements a strong comfort. Yes, sometimes thing are a little uncomfortable but you are free to move around to adjust for this. Everything is peaceful, you are discovering how to move, to bend arms, even what the arms are and were the signals are coming from. Then, suddenly, without any warning, the warm comforting water is drianed away and you start to feel pain as you are no longer held in your warm embrace. On top of that sharp objects start tearing at you taking away chunks at a time. The pain is so intense it block out anything else. The cord is cut and on top of the unbarable pain you now begin to feel your life slip away. You are yanked from the comfort of your mothers womb and tossed in a disposal bin it spend those last few seconds of your short life. Disgusting isn't it? Isn't it?

Just the other side of the coin.

From the Texas Vital Statistics Report for 2001

 

[Sultan Bhargash]

A lot to chew on, meldor. Here we go...

Originally posted by meldor

1) that is a seperate life and so is entitled to every human right afforded any other human being?

Like the immigrants that can be "held indefinately" by Aschcroft or the herders brought along to Guantanamo, all of them fully grown beings with no rights at all? No, I don't have to think consistently; as you see in the "is murdering a wanted child" thread, I'm advanced enough to say that the pregnant woman decides the rights of the foetus, as she will decide the fate of the child in the years she protects it as mother. There are some things the law can do after it is born, and I am in favor of the law protect it from the malice of others while it is in utero, but if the woman doesn't want it, since she is the root from which it springs, she has that choice. I even feel confident in saying its a God given choice that Jesus is fully behind.

I'm going to take the fast rout using the quote brackets, this is all meldor and apologies for not attributing:

2) You assume that rape is done for procreation or pleasure and not for hatred and pain.

No, I know it is an act of 'power' but that doesn't change my premise- you are telling me that if I can get a woman pregnant against her will, you'd like to see Ashcroft make her have the baby. I do think that as traumatic as rape is, post-rape pregnancy must be infinetely more awful.

And on top of that, it is almost unversal practice to do a DNC procedure on a rape victim to recover evidence and ensure that they don't get pregnant. I would think you would be hard pressed to find very many cases in this country of a woman getting pregnant by rape.

So, DNC must be like, an immediate abortion? Because you get pregnant pretty fast after the act, regardless of the speed of "first responders". Is the zygote not a human life? If we can split the hair there, why not later? But all I need is one case of a woman pregnant by rape to ask you whether you'd like to force her to have the baby. I won't get offensive by suggesting various people you know, whether you'd want to watch them grow full of some thug's baby in misery while you moralize at them.

It is a strawman arguement. Just as is the arguement that women will die by the thousands if abortion is illegal. Try to find the statistics on how many women died due to illegal abortions before Roe vs. Wade. I have tried and can't find any that are not based on hearsay and half truths.

You can't find statistics of a situation where women died doing a criminal scorned shameful procedure? Really? Wow! Now go and tell me the exact statistics of how many people sell cocaine today? Not surprised you can't find it. I am happy to say if just one died that way it was the unecessary death of a fully developed born human. Again, as in protesting the war, my morals are of the "let's not be responsible for one death" variety, while others are willing to say "oh, we're saving so much more speculative cases down the road that its worth the price of a few who are with us here and now". Atrocious.

Also, while you are there, try and find any statistics on the number of women who die from abortions today. It does happen, but no one keeps the stats on what the complications are and how many die. I know of several woman who have had severe problems and one who died, but no one wants to confess what the real numbers are.

You kind of show your own disingenuity here- if women will die in modern surgical facilities, don't you think it would be worse in hidden unreported labs run by de facto criminals? 16,000 people a year die on the chiropractor's table, and I won't get a route canal because they tell me I might lose feeling in my tongue forever.

This also goes to the coverup of the horrible side effects of the "morning after" pill.

Nobody goes to the doctor and gets medicine and doesn't have the side effects explained to them. Can you imagine how hard we'd have to come down on the lawyers? (I mean the insurance companies, but for some reasons Americans don't blame them).

The high number of women who experience abnormally long and heavy bleeding due to it. Shock and other complications. Everyone is silent on these things. Supposedly it can have side effects in up to 10% of the women who use it, but everyone keeps saying how wonderfull it is and how much we should expand its use.

I'd rather have abnormal bleeding than anaesthesia. Nobody really wants to have to use this more, but I do think that the morning after pill, the equivalent of taking multiple birth control pills, is the safest way to terminate a pregnancy. Maybe they should use that "DNC" whatever that is you talk about that magically keeps rape victims from getting pregnant?

3) You also assume that the government is going to force anyone to do anything. I don't really care if abortion is legal or not. They plain fact is that it is immoral and murder. The person performing the procedure and the person who has it preformed must answer for that not before me but before God.

Ah, good. Well if we are arguing morals, I can't help you. I am very glad to see you are one of the few on your side of the argument who are willing to trust God to judge. I think he'll go easy on the confused young women, and might even be impressed by the courage of the doctors who risk being killed by moralizers for their empathy.

That said, I think it should be illegal or a lot harder to obtain, just for the reason that it doesn't make it an easy choice.

Well, you just said above you didn't care if was legal or not. However, saying it is "an easy choice" tells me you've probably never gotten pregnant by accident. You should consider volunteering at an abortion clinic and get a first hand look at the scared, miserable young women who come through. Nobody has a party when its over. Its not Christian to want to make people suffer more for their sins.

One thing no one wants to touch is the long term mental effects the abortion has on the women who have them.
Some studies suggest that these women are more likely to have strong fellings of guilt and depression, many years later.

And women who have children without support are most likely to be run to ground and basket cases several months later. And being the child of one is no picnic.

But again, it is taboo for anyone to dare to study it. Just like the link made to breast cancer. The pro-abortionist disclaimed the research even before they had in evidence to the contrary.

I am impressed by your passion here, we've now got "pro-abortion" being flung around, will it get shouted down like "pro-war"? Research can be done and I'm sure it has, and I'm sure that the right wing junta (as long as were loading the terms in our favor) wouldn't stop someone, say, the surgeon general, from publicizing that connection.

Why? Because they can not allow anything to stand that migfht suggest that the abortion industry is anything but prefect and natural.

I don't think here in America, as opposed to Old (Northern, non-Catholic) Europe, anybody is convinced that it is perfect and natural. Like "preemptive war" or the death penalty, both of which kill born humans and neither of which the hypocritical moralizers spend too much time on, it is a cost of civil society.

4) No, Ms. Sanger was a big follower of Mr. Hitler and published here in the US many of the Nazi postion papers on Eugeneics.

And Jefferson was a slave rapist. And George Bush did business with the Ayatollah. So?

There just waqsn't a casual tie between the Nazis and Ms. Sanger and her followers.
<snip>
In April of 1933, Birth Control Review (The original publication of Ms. Sanger for all things pro-Eugenics) published an article by Dr. Ernst Rubin, who was Hitler's director of genetic sterilization and a founder of the Nazi Society for Racial Hygiene.

And after the war (which doubtless included some innocent foetus slaughter among the hundred thousands at Hiroshima and Nagasaki), we gave Nazi scientists immunity so they could help us develop weapons of mass destruction. Wild world.

Do you every wonder why Planned Parenthood has over 50% of its clinics in areas that would serve Blacks and Hispanics?

Because the overly moralistic climate in Baptist and Catholic homes precludes a sane discussion of birth control? Because Planned Parenthood is underfunded and the rent is cheaper there? Because our society is still inherently racist despite affirmative action and the women of those minorities are less likely to be able to aford prenatal care? Wait, tell me it has something to do with Hitler...

Do you ever wonder why they push abortion for women who are "too poor to afford" a child?

Because our prisons are way overcrowded with poor people and they want to do the taxpayers a favor?

Do you ever wonder why 1 in every three black pregnancies in the US end with abortion? Disgusting isn't it? Isn't it?

I wonder more why more black males are in prison than go to college, but I've always been most concerned with the living over the not-yet-alive. Yes, they should really advertise condoms more effectively. But of course the same moralizers who want to shut down abortion also want to help generate unwanted pregnancies by denying the strength of the sex urge and eschewing effective sex education. They want to impose their morals on others- yes like the Taliban, if you can invoke Nazi eugenics.

5) You assume that the crime of rape goes unpunished. That there are no consquences to the act. You are causally going to force several women to have your children as if ther won't be someone looking for you. As if you won't be prosecuted for these acts. If 5-10 years in prison isn't going to deter you from raping, then why would someone having an abortion?

I didn't say I wouldn't go to jail. I said that in a world run by YOU, if I'm a demento who wants that girl who rejected me to remember me evermore, I have a great chance to get the children part of the fantasy, if not the spectacular wedding. Again, put a woman you know and love into those shoes. And assume she'd rather not have my baby. Do you know what a massive jerk you would be if you ranted at her about the sanctity of my child or "what about the father?"

And once a rape is commited and that exterely rare event of a pregnancy occurs, why do you wish to compound one immoral act with another?

Because I don't see the protection of the mother from the crime of rape as immoral. I don't see the abortion of the foetus as being immoral compared to the enslavement of woman.

Yes, I balance my sympathy for the woman with these thougthts:

Here you are a nice unborn child. You have just become self aware or arein that process. Things are warm and wet. You can feel your mother surronding you. The beat of her heart and her normal movements a strong comfort. Yes, sometimes thing are a little uncomfortable but you are free to move around to adjust for this. Everything is peaceful, you are discovering how to move, to bend arms, even what the arms are and were the signals are coming from.

You know what, I don't remember any of that sh*t. First thing I knew, I was
about two years old and my father was fixing a doorframe with a loud electric drill and I was scared. I'd say a concious cow feels more pain than a developing embryo, but I'm almost certain you enjoy your steak.

Then, suddenly, without any warning, the warm comforting water is drianed away and you start to feel pain as you are no longer held in your warm embrace. On top of that sharp objects start tearing at you taking away chunks at a time. The pain is so intense it block out anything else. The cord is cut and on top of the unbarable pain you now begin to feel your life slip away. You are yanked from the comfort of your mothers womb and tossed in a disposal bin it spend those last few seconds of your short life.

This was verbatim from one of the anti-woman pamphlets, wasn't it?
Sorry, but you'd have to fix everything for the death row inmates, the refugees of war, the sentient cows and pigs you eat, the people who get cancer from corporate pollution, and about a thousand other things before I might decide that that nascent embryo' s suffering is more disgusting than strapping a woman down for nine months and pushing the unwanted baby out of her to sell off to someone who might want it.

THis was a long, painful post, probably yours was too. You probably want to rebut, but I think I've shown that you aren't going to convince me. This is morals, not law. You can hope God meets the abortion doctors and the Mary Magdalenes of the world with hellfire, and I'll go on believing he's waiting to punish the governors who don't pardon death row inmates and fry ******** people in the chair before going to push war as a "first option" to dealing with our nation's problems.

 

[MummyMan]

meldor, in response to your response of what i said. I saw a bumper sticker that said "Guns don't kill people, radical pro-life'ers kill people" and thought it made a good point because some crazy pro-lifers blow up abortion clinics. My opinion on the topic of abortion is not gonna be shared, just pointing out that some people can get so caught up in their beliefs that they forget that they do it as well.

 

[metalhead]

I think J. Billington Bulworth said it best - everybody just needs to keep screwing everybody until we're all the same color. Then we wouldn't have to worry about these racial issues.

 

[test_specimen]

Meldor, how can you say "And once a rape is commited and that exterely rare event of a pregnancy occurs, why do you wish to compound one immoral act with another?" and later cite statistics from Texas? Do you defend capital punishment as well? How hypocrite can you get?

And I guess you're also wrong, if you think the main consideration of those women is, whether they should buy themselves a new Playstation or have the child. Mothers tend to be very protective, even towards unborn childs, so the reasons to walk to a clinic, probably the next pro life bomb target, are a bit more grave.

@Sultan: I think Ireland is the only country that restrictive until now. I'm not sure whether they allowed abortion by now. But in the rest of EU-Europe, I think, it is legal.

 

[Sultan Bhargash]

I know the Dutch still have to send floating abortion clinics around to somewhere, maybe just Ireland. I know in Italy divorce was illegal until the 1970s. The liberation of women around the world goes on; its funny how many people who use the burka as a justification for bombing the hell out of the middle east would be happy to keep our women locked up as pregnancy machines under domination of the papas. The same voice that says "********" really can't say a word about Mullah Omar's spank police.