Would you like 4UC modmod to be integrated to the VP?
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InkAxis
King
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Long time no see guys. I might be out of the loop but here are my thoughts.
I feel like we first need to decide what the purpose of doing this is and what the process would look like.
I assume 4UC will just be added in the installer as a separate mod? So it's installed by the VP installer, but you still have to select it.
Therefore, what is the real difference between that and the status quo? To me, having it installed automatically seems like it really only affects two things:
1. New players who haven't already installed 4UC. If you've played VP for a while you probably already at least have 4UC in your mods screen, so literally no difference, even if you don't play with it. And installing it takes like 2 seconds.
2. A change of "ownership" of 4UC. Currently 4UC is more or less managed by pineappledan, but if it's part of "official" VP then much more power is shifted towards the community and Recursive, and we might make decisions with it that go out of Pdan's intentions. Seems like Pdan is fine with that? And, more work for the devs.
So for #1, do new players need to be shown 4UC in the install screen? I'm not really sure. You can argue for or against it. My preference is that new comers to VP aren't bombarded with too many changes from the base game. This many abilities and units might be a bit much for a new player to handle. I especially feel like base VP is a good way to start the game then 4UC once you want something new. But it's very debatable, I could go either way.
For #2, it seems like doubling the amount of UCs is a lot of stuff that could lead to more management/bugs. Of course, pdan has been managing it well so far, so you could say that as long as pdan keeps support that's fine, but it leads to more work now for recursive and any other devs as 4UC is now a part of their responsibility as well.
So to me those seem like more important considerations than "balance". These two factors will affect the long term success of this mod -- if we don't have new players, or devs have too much work, then the mod could die. That is being over dramatic, it's not like 4UC integration would cause VP to die. But I'm just saying these aspects matter more than balance, unless it literally makes the balance unplayable, which I don't beleive anyone is saying.
Both of those points #1 and #2 go slightly in favor of not integrating 4UC. #1 is debatable, but #2 is certainly true, although the magnitude of how much more work is needed is debatable. That being said, if you can argue that the work is not much work, and there are some benefits to having 4UC in the installer (can someone specify these?) then a vote yes is reasonable.
I feel like we first need to decide what the purpose of doing this is and what the process would look like.
I assume 4UC will just be added in the installer as a separate mod? So it's installed by the VP installer, but you still have to select it.
Therefore, what is the real difference between that and the status quo? To me, having it installed automatically seems like it really only affects two things:
1. New players who haven't already installed 4UC. If you've played VP for a while you probably already at least have 4UC in your mods screen, so literally no difference, even if you don't play with it. And installing it takes like 2 seconds.
2. A change of "ownership" of 4UC. Currently 4UC is more or less managed by pineappledan, but if it's part of "official" VP then much more power is shifted towards the community and Recursive, and we might make decisions with it that go out of Pdan's intentions. Seems like Pdan is fine with that? And, more work for the devs.
So for #1, do new players need to be shown 4UC in the install screen? I'm not really sure. You can argue for or against it. My preference is that new comers to VP aren't bombarded with too many changes from the base game. This many abilities and units might be a bit much for a new player to handle. I especially feel like base VP is a good way to start the game then 4UC once you want something new. But it's very debatable, I could go either way.
For #2, it seems like doubling the amount of UCs is a lot of stuff that could lead to more management/bugs. Of course, pdan has been managing it well so far, so you could say that as long as pdan keeps support that's fine, but it leads to more work now for recursive and any other devs as 4UC is now a part of their responsibility as well.
So to me those seem like more important considerations than "balance". These two factors will affect the long term success of this mod -- if we don't have new players, or devs have too much work, then the mod could die. That is being over dramatic, it's not like 4UC integration would cause VP to die. But I'm just saying these aspects matter more than balance, unless it literally makes the balance unplayable, which I don't beleive anyone is saying.
Both of those points #1 and #2 go slightly in favor of not integrating 4UC. #1 is debatable, but #2 is certainly true, although the magnitude of how much more work is needed is debatable. That being said, if you can argue that the work is not much work, and there are some benefits to having 4UC in the installer (can someone specify these?) then a vote yes is reasonable.
Rustonreddit
Chieftain
- Joined
- Apr 25, 2018
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so the idea is to have it as a separate mod on the installer or base VP would be with 4UC?
if it is a separate mod on the installer, then 4UC should work like i think it is now: it is balance taking into account the base game (not the base game taking into account 4UC)
Base VP with 4UC. The point is that base VP would be developed and balanced considering 4UC.
Rustonreddit
Chieftain
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- Apr 25, 2018
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So the base game becomes 4UC and it will not be a separate mod in the installer, right?
Probably, but that doesn't really matter to me.
geeez...
pineappledan
Deity
For me, the advantages of integration are as follows:
1. Futureproofing - the 4UC mod is entirely dependent on 1 person, me, to maintain it. It’s a precarious situation that depends on me having enough free time and interest to keep it compatible. Moving it into the main mod makes compatibility the responsibility of the people making changes in the main mod. This is much more tenable than the current situation in the medium term.
2. Balance. Adding 4UC to the main mod would make it a consideration for balance. This will make balancing the civs against each other easier because there are now 5 new knobs to turn instead of 3. It sounds more complex, but it opens up many new avenues for balance adjustments.
3. Quality.
- DLL integration will mean exposing abilities to AI decision-making, allowing the AI to use the components better.
- It will also make the mod more stable.
- It will also expose 4UC to AI test games, which gives more information for balance adjustments.
- It will also expose the extra components to congress, giving more opinions and a forum for discussion of improvements.
1. Futureproofing - the 4UC mod is entirely dependent on 1 person, me, to maintain it. It’s a precarious situation that depends on me having enough free time and interest to keep it compatible. Moving it into the main mod makes compatibility the responsibility of the people making changes in the main mod. This is much more tenable than the current situation in the medium term.
2. Balance. Adding 4UC to the main mod would make it a consideration for balance. This will make balancing the civs against each other easier because there are now 5 new knobs to turn instead of 3. It sounds more complex, but it opens up many new avenues for balance adjustments.
3. Quality.
- DLL integration will mean exposing abilities to AI decision-making, allowing the AI to use the components better.
- It will also make the mod more stable.
- It will also expose 4UC to AI test games, which gives more information for balance adjustments.
- It will also expose the extra components to congress, giving more opinions and a forum for discussion of improvements.
psparky
King
- Joined
- Feb 24, 2011
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- 624
All of those can be achieved if 4UC becomes an integrated optional mod. The negative aspect of full integration is that it takes away the choice for those who prefer to play without it.
I would 100% support integration as an optional mod, but not full integration.
I hope that voters will not simply think 'I always play with the mod, so I will vote yes for (full) integration' when all this gains them is, well, nothing compared to optional mod integration and removes a small inconvenience compared to non-integration.
I would 100% support integration as an optional mod, but not full integration.
I hope that voters will not simply think 'I always play with the mod, so I will vote yes for (full) integration' when all this gains them is, well, nothing compared to optional mod integration and removes a small inconvenience compared to non-integration.
The problem with this is then you have to try to balance VP and VP+4UC simultaneously which is basically impossible.
The whole point of integration is to make it NOT optional such that game design and balance discussions take into account base VP+4UC and they become one unified, polished, and well designed/balanced package to enjoy.
pineappledan
Deity
I would be thrilled with DLL integration without packaging into the main mod. This was suggested before and I am fully in support of either option.
I think that the claims surrounding 4UC being made default, and then having to disable it if you don't want them are overblown. I don't know why anyone would decline more content if it is being freely given to them at no additional complexity or dip in quality, but if you really don't want the extra components then it is trivial to simply remove them; much easier than adding them in.
The only real debate is whether VP ought to be primarily balanced assuming 2 unique components or 4.
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Rustonreddit
Chieftain
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- Apr 25, 2018
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"More" is synonymous of "better"
I think people who are most involved in the forums, who often participate in proposing in the congress already played with 4UC. So conscious or not, I think current balance already take into account 4UC. See the discussion on Polynesia's change for example.
N.Core
1st Class of Neoa
The same thing can be said back then when there was a poll about merging the separated mods (CBP + CSD + C4DF + More Luxuries) into a single VP mod. The majority voted for that and people who prefer not using some optional mods are now forced to play with those, some even disliked the VP merge.
I would rather streamline the experience by making 4UC integrated so then any balance changes and also people who update the mod now have to account for it. You don't want people to make two civ designs, one for non-4UC and another for 4UC. Also, Vern doesn't have to do a different AI game analysis because 4UC is part of VP.
Like I said before, do or die. Are we gonna integrate this or not?
Depends on the poll on a new vote threshold and then on the poll on the 4UC integration.
@InkAxis for me 1) is a priority. New players should be given the best possible package from us, the experienced players. I thoroughly believe the game is better with 4UC and that most people would find that.
The experience of seeing that civ selection screen with the the extra boxes is, for a long-time civ V player, an amazing moment. It's the first thing you will see, and it will tell you that VP means business. It is not even the most major change we have made, but it will put the scale of the mod upfront for the new player.
It's the same reason I think events should be switched off by default.
I would integrate this as a component (5) mod. If people don't like it (a valid opinion once you've tried it), then a simple delete of that folder/install option is totally reasonable to my way of thinking.
The experience of seeing that civ selection screen with the the extra boxes is, for a long-time civ V player, an amazing moment. It's the first thing you will see, and it will tell you that VP means business. It is not even the most major change we have made, but it will put the scale of the mod upfront for the new player.
It's the same reason I think events should be switched off by default.
I would integrate this as a component (5) mod. If people don't like it (a valid opinion once you've tried it), then a simple delete of that folder/install option is totally reasonable to my way of thinking.
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