Would you like 4UC modmod to be integrated to the VP?

I'm already working to try to strip out the more "out there" bonuses to have something more tame for integration proposal. The next version of the modmod is already going to have some big changes, reworked, or totally replaced components.
Problem is a lot of those bonuses offer the majority of fun and interesting gameplay/interactions which make 4UC a great addition. Stripping them out only in order to make the game "balanced" for AI's sake would just make it another mod with more of the same contents we already have, only more thematic. Not to mention more works to maintain/balance altogether.

If integrating 4UC into VP allowing the AI to make full use of its great additional interactions (which is, again, a lot of extra work, but at least we can get an "improved" experience compared to just using VP and 4UC) I would be all up for, but not the stripped down version which would both remove the fun part of human gameplay and add even more samey content to what we already have.
 
If integrating 4UC into VP allowing the AI to make full use of its great additional interactions (which is, again, a lot of extra work, but at least we can get an "improved" experience compared to just using VP and 4UC) I would be all up for
Integration will involve a lot of new abilities being added into the game, and there are some that I think are far more complex than they are fun. I am mainly working to redo those kinds of bonuses now. I am doing this out of consideration for DLL modders who would volunteer their time to add new abilities into the game; I think that some of the abilities as they are now are simply not worth that sort of effort.

For a specific example, the nilometer and the Buffalo pound both place a bonus resource on the map. We have similar code for the Indonesian Candi, but it will probably have to be rewritten for both of these new components, because they each have different tile placement parameters. That’s a lot of work for something that isn’t really all that fun.

It is true that integration will expose the components to AI decisions. While that will help in some cases, the number of components where the AI’s decision-making could be materially impacted is small. Taking the above example again, the AI doesn’t need to do anything different whether or not it knows that it will get a Bison resource placed on a tile.
 
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Integration will involve a lot of new abilities being added into the game, and there are some that I think are far more complex than they are fun. I am mainly working to redo those kinds of bonuses now. I am doing this out of consideration for DLL modders who would volunteer their time to add new abilities into the game; I think that some of the abilities as they are now are simply not worth that sort of effort.

For a specific example, the nilometer and the Buffalo pound both place a bonus resource on the map. We have similar code for the Indonesian Candi, but it will probably have to be rewritten for both of these new components, because they each have different tile placement parameters. That’s a lot of work for something that isn’t really all that fun.

It is true that integration will expose the components to AI decisions. While that will help in some cases, the number of components where the AI’s decision-making could be materially impacted is small. Taking the above example again, the AI doesn’t need to do anything different whether or not it knows that it will get a Bison resource placed on a tile.
Well I really like the nilometer personally ^^
 
Just want to point out here that it's a somewhat shallow interpretation to say that Aztecs are bad due to their lower winrate. Warmonger and aggressive AIs as a whole do worse, likely from antagonizing their neighbors and getting ganged up on: offense leader flavors have moderate negative correlations with winrate, and seeing a graph of combined offense flavors against winrates shows a pretty clear pattern here - warmongers exist to make trouble and add challenge for a human player, but this AI playstyle does not do a lot of winning. This is something you mention as well, which is accurate and I think is a fairly desirable for a 4x game





Overall I agree with this sentiment regarding civ balance. It's useful for identifying exceptional cases and overall trends but certainly provides a very narrow view into civ balance from a human perspective. For this reason, I think it's more useful in combination with human feedback and other metrics than as a standalone.

However, I would argue that there are many other facets of the AI data that are more or less directly applicable to the human player experience and either have been or are currently being used to improve the mod from a more quantitative point of view:
  • Victory Conditions: If a certain victory type is too easy or much faster than the others, this is a negative for the player - for example, when culture victories made up about 70% of all games, this obviously limits player choice in difficult spots (since this might be the only attainable option) as well as making games containing CV focused civs much more difficult than those without
  • Technology Research Times: When some eras are much longer or shorter than others, this is also a negative for the player - not having the opportunity to use cool units because their upgrade comes in 5 turns was a common problem when atomic+ techs were a third of the cost they are now. Sure, the AI average won't exactly match the science output of a human player but it gives a much better and less arbitrary baseline for science output at various points of the game
  • AI Handicap Bonuses: While obviously not directly applicable to humans, AI bonuses are very visible to a human player, and manifests in different ways, such as extremely quick city growth, being exceptionally ahead or behind in techs or policies, or just certain civs consistently having way more yields to work with (particularly those that focus on great people). Being able to analyze handicap and instant yield sources by their sources and amounts is invaluable for balancing bonuses across triggers and smoothening out their power over the course of a game and between civs, making for a more consistent and fair experience for a human player
That being said, I think there's also some data from AI games that have little value for balancing for a human player, policy choices being a great example. Policy winrates have more to do with what civs usually pick them (ex. Tradition has high diplomatic victory percentages, and the top diplo civs: Siam, Austria, Netherlands go Tradition every game. Coincidence?) or the policies contained therein being an engine for churning out more AI handicap yields, which are both completely unapplicable to balancing policies for a player.
Thanks for your reply Vern. I agree those things are interesting and I was a little too harsh about the utility of AI games.
 
I think there can be no argument that some 4UC components are "overly complicated" or unnecessarily unfriendly to the AI.

On the first: the Suffet changing between the two great military people, ignoring enemy zone but only on that turn you begin near it. This is a bit much, no?

On the second: the Seir Morb musn't move. Why? The AI has no idea and often uses excess movement to scout or flank by default. Then there is the Baochuan, you have to park it in a city state, how can the AI possibly know this without an entire new DLL routine?

I think "cool" bonuses are fine, but the AI has to be able to use them at least incidentally. Even the Eagle upgrade I think is fine, because the incidental aspect is reasonable compared to its significance. But if the whole point of the UU is to get influence and the AI can't do it? That's unacceptable.
 
See here for whether the AI can handle each component.
 
"Coincidentally" (or even "Yes") isn't ideal; we want the AI to take each ability into account and score their actions accordingly.

Which, I know, isn't perfect in base VP either.
 
One thing I want from 4UC implementation is that make it a single supermajority proposal instead of separated into a bunch of proposals for each civ.
Better to discuss now what those 4UCs would be. Some counterproposals are acceptable, but I'm afraid that it would turn into a voting nightmare.
Make it a "do or die" proposal.
 
What I have proposed is this:
1 supermajority vote for/against integration
43 separate votes for proposals/counterproposals for each civ with no ‘Nay’ option

That should also make sponsorship easier to sort out.
 
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What I have proposed is this:
1 supermajority vote for/against integration
43 separate votes for proposals/counterproposals for each civ with no ‘Nay’ option

That should also make sponsorship easier to sort out.
So some civs won't have 4UC while others do?
 
What I have proposed is this:
1 supermajority vote for/against integration
43 separate votes for proposals/counterproposals for each civ with no ‘Nay’ option

That should also make sponsorship easier to sort out.
This would definitely need to be its own congress cycle right? I feel bad for our sponsors/modders
 
Yes, we are going to run the supermajority vote for 4UC integration during the “testing phase” that is set for June. if the supermajority vote passes, we enter a proposal/counter proposal phase exclusively for 4UC integration. If the supermajority vote fails then we do a normal Congress phase in July as if nothing happened
 
We don't really know the balance implications of doing that.
And which would you integrate, all the units or all the economic components? Or would you go through and pick based on the civ (nightmare).
 
How they want to integrate a mod of this size in complexity into a project that still has many flaws (bugs,ctds) with each change proposed in the votes is what really catches my attention.
 
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