Wu Zetian

[magicalsushi]

Empress Wu is often proposed here as a new leaderhead for China. I know nothing about her, so I looked her up in Wikipedia.

Wikipedia has plenty to say about how she became emperor, but very little what she actually did as a leader, other than ruthlessly clinging to power. I know that Wikipedia is not the world's most reliable or complete source of information, but you'd think that if she'd accomplished something other than becoming emperor, someone would have made this clear. It only really mentions that she promoted Buddhism and that her rule resulted in better equality between the sexes. If that's really all there is to it, then presumably she's only famous because she was a woman.

Please convince me that Wikipedia is wrong. I know it takes great intelligence to rise to the top against the odds in a Machiavellian style, and I'm certainly not saying she wasn't a remarkable person, but I'm more interested in what leaders actually did to change the lot of their people. Going by what wikipedia says, my view of her is currently: great social climber, nondescript leader. If anyone can explain to me how she actually improved China, I'd love to hear more. If her only accomplishment was to push her way to the throne and then cling onto it, why do so many people advocate her as a new leaderhead?

 

[cybrxkhan]

because unlike the other possible female candidate, Cixi, she wasn't a direct cause of the fall of a Chinese dynasty.

from what i know, not only was she a pretty concubine of the emperor she married (before she became an empress and old), she was a decent administrator and manager of the empire.

 

[cybrxkhan]

and may i add, some of the leaders in civ weren't that great or influential to their country.

Ramses II was just the ancient worlds biggest braggart... when he fought the Hittites, he boasted of his victory in a similar way Bush is boasting of his victory in Iraq.

Montezuma, though at first he was a great conqueror, eventually screwed the Aztec Empire for good when the Spainiards came and he was all nice to them.

Ragnar Lodbrok was just some semi-legendary king who conducting some raids, and didn't really help to "improve" the Vikings in general. in fact, he wasn't leader of all or even many Vikings.

Hannibal, though a great general, just won some victories and then a retreat, and thats pretty much what everyone remembers him for. nothing much to improve Carthage's situation; scared Rome, yes, but nothing much else.

Gilgamesh, watever did he do except get into some long epic? who knows?


some leaders are just in because they are more famous and well known, even if they didn't do much. this helps in marketing. if Firaxis wants to try to include more female leaders, and especially Asian female leaders Wu Zeitian probably is one of the more well-known choices, except for maybe the Vietnamese Trung sisters (but thats only if they put Vietnam in the game), and the Thai queen, Suriyothai (but thats only if they put Thailand in the game).

 

[Emperor2]

I say scrap the evil leaders of china and replace them both with Wu Di, and Sun Yat Sun.

 

[gettingfat]

Wikipedia has plenty to say about how she became emperor, but very little what she actually did as a leader, other than ruthlessly clinging to power. I know that Wikipedia is not the world's most reliable or complete source of information, but you'd think that if she'd accomplished something other than becoming emperor, someone would have made this clear. It only really mentions that she promoted Buddhism and that her rule resulted in better equality between the sexes. If that's really all there is to it, then presumably she's only famous because she was a woman.

Please convince me that Wikipedia is wrong. I know it takes great intelligence to rise to the top against the odds in a Machiavellian style, and I'm certainly not saying she wasn't a remarkable person, but I'm more interested in what leaders actually did to change the lot of their people. Going by what wikipedia says, my view of her is currently: great social climber, nondescript leader. If anyone can explain to me how she actually improved China, I'd love to hear more. If her only accomplishment was to push her way to the throne and then cling onto it, why do so many people advocate her as a new leaderhead?

Wiki on her was actually quite superficial, and in fact somewhat misleading (I don't know who wrote it, must be a guy). Even ancient Chinese historians tend to put her down due to gender issue, they still had to objectively recognize her as a brilliant leader (they just attacked her personal life). Let me summarize according to what I know:

• Gao Zong (son of Taizong, 3rd emperor of Tang dynasty)'s highly rated ruling was in fact strongly contributed by Wu as his queen. They were at first both in the throne room for decision making. Later, the true leader of the second half of Gaozong's era was actually Wu, not Gaozong (Gaozong always felt headache and dizzy when he hit middle aged, likely a severe form of migraine)
• According to history, Wu was smarter and more decisive than Gaozong, so most of the high-ranked officials tended to follow her leadership. In short, she was the main person to consolidate what Taizong has achieved.
• After taken control, Wu further improved and expanded the meritocracy bureacrat system developed by Taizong that is so famous in Tang dynasty. She selected high-ranked officials primarily based on ability and merits, not their heritage. Early and even till mid-Tang era was famous for producing capable officials (like 100% GP production ), she played a crucial role.
• She is a great economist, particularly in developing agriculture and commerce based economy. Some historians estimated at her time the GDP of China was like a third of the world or even higher. (she is a financial leader, obviously )
• With much better income, the population of China vastly increase. It was estimated that the total number of families (not people) in her era increased from 3.8 mil to 6.15 mil. Which other country at that point had that population? (so she is an expansive as well )
• Militarily, defeat Topou(spelling???), which becomes Tibet today. To maintain long-term occupancy, she installed a military-farming hybrid system, so her army staying there produced their own food by farming. It was documented after 5 year of this policy, the army there had enough food reserve for a few decades. This fundamentally solved the logistic issue.
• By opening up the western part of China, she essentially opened up the Silk Road.
• She was a buddhist. Buddhism and its related cultural infrastructure rapidly expand under her. But at the same time, she allowed free religion.
• Also at her time, the famous Tang literature (Tang was the golden age of Chinese poems) began. Wu herself was extremely well educated. It is not wrong to give her the creative trait, too.

Wu is essentially a hybrid of Elizabeth and Victoria.

 

[cybrxkhan]

Wiki on her was actually quite superficial, and in fact somewhat misleading (I don't know who wrote it, must be a guy). Even ancient Chinese historians tend to put her down due to gender issue, they still had to objectively recognize her as a brilliant leader (they just attacked her personal life). Let me summarize according to what I know:

• Gao Zong (son of Taizong, 3rd emperor of Tang dynasty)'s highly rated ruling was in fact strongly contributed by Wu as his queen. They were at first both in the throne room for decision making. Later, the true leader of the second half of Gaozong's era was actually Wu, not Gaozong (Gaozong always felt headache and dizzy when he hit middle aged, likely a severe form of migraine)
• According to history, Wu was smarter and more decisive than Gaozong, so most of the high-ranked officials tended to follow her leadership. In short, she was the main person to consolidate what Taizong has achieved.
• After taken control, Wu further improved and expanded the meritocracy bureacrat system developed by Taizong that is so famous in Tang dynasty. She selected high-ranked officials primarily based on ability and merits, not their heritage. Early and even till mid-Tang era was famous for producing capable officials (like 100% GP production ), she played a crucial role.
• She is a great economist, particularly in developing agriculture and commerce based economy. Some historians estimated at her time the GDP of China was like a third of the world or even higher. (she is a financial leader, obviously )
• With much better income, the population of China vastly increase. It was estimated that the total number of families (not people) in her era increased from 3.8 mil to 6.15 mil. Which other country at that point had that population? (so she is an expansive as well )
• Militarily, defeat Topou(spelling???), which becomes Tibet today. To maintain long-term occupancy, she installed a military-farming hybrid system, so her army staying there produced their own food by farming. It was documented after 5 year of this policy, the army there had enough food reserve for a few decades. This fundamentally solved the logistic issue.
• By opening up the western part of China, she essentially opened up the Silk Road.
• She is a buddhist. Buddhism and its related cultural infrastructure were rapidly expand under her. But at the same time, she allowed free religion.
• Also at her time, the famous Tang literature (Tang was the golden age of Chinese poems) began. Wu herself was extremely well educated. It is not wrong to give her the creative trait, too.

Wu is essentially a hybrid of Elizabeth and Victoria.

i'd say, give her Philosophical and Industrious! What better than a hot young (or not-so-hot old) female Asian leader whos hell smarter than all the other AI???

and i think the GNP of China was the highest in the world until the 1700s.

 

[szhzh]

As a chinese, I think the reason Wu Zetian is the leader of China perharps mainly because she is the only woman leader during chinese about six thousands years long history. Even now, in China, all important place is controlled by men while no women, though women has much more rights in China now.

In fact, in ancient chinese we think that Han and Tang is the gold age of chinese poems, espcially in the period of Emeror Tang Xuanzong, the grandson of Wu Zt. And we call the period of chinese history when China was mastered by Wu zetian and then her grandson Tan Xuanzong Kaiyuan greatly gold age. During this period, china developed greatly in its science, technology, artist and military. And lots of other countries nearby China also are under the control of china such as Japan and Korea because of Chinese huge effection in culture and some others.
Though, during Wu zetian's time, there were lots of war in and outside China for different reasons, the people indeed are rich and feel happy.


Mao zedong, Li shiming(Tang taizong) is the leader of China in civilization 3 and while Qin Shihuang, Mao taizu is the leader of China in civilization 4. I think perharps Sid Meier should let Sun Zhongshang who are loved in China during the morden times to be the leader of China or let Han gaozu who make up the Han dynasty to be the leader.


The man following below is Sun Yat Sun(Sun zhongshan or Sun Wen)

I hope I can see he is the leader in the next.






I like this game, and the UU of China, Cho-Ko-Nu indeed is good , strong , wonderful and useful.

Perharps China is the 1st level civi in the civilization 5.

 

[revengeofmakno]

China has had many highs and lows and the early part of the Tang Dynasty was definitely one of the high points. Wu Zetian was one of the leaders at that time so she is not a bad choice to represent a powerful China. But there are many other choices. Having said that, get Mao out of there!!

However, choosing her specifically seems to be part of how Civilization does seem to go out of its way a bit to look for female leaders. I don't have a problem with that. Some, such as Victoria, Elizabeth and Catherine are no doubt on the shortest of lists for their respective countries notable/powerful regimes.

Hatshepsut is not as obvious a choice although by all accounts she was a very capable leader. In terms of Egyptian state power, her successor, Thutmose III definitely would seem preferable over both her and Ramses (but he did inherit the strong state that Hatshepsut built up).

Boudica has very few credentials as a great leader of a powerful people. There is just some kind of romantic nostalgia about her and she was in England.

@ cybrxkhan
I hear what you are saying about Hannibal but if you have a weaker civ like Carthage in the game, who is the better alternative? I am genuinely interested in who that alternative would be (no sarcasm intended). Hannibal's charisma, organizational and leadership skills are well documented. He is also, by general historical consensus among Western historians, one of the top 3 generals in history (with Alexander and Napolean), certainly no worse than top 5. Yes, we can always debate that but those are strong credentials and again, to argue against him is similar to arguing against Carthage itself which had the misfortune of being up against a uniquely great rising power in Rome.

 

[ywhtptgtfo]

Wu Zetien's a weird choice for China's figurehead definitely. She was a good monarch, but not among the best. Qin was probably the best choice for his cultural unification of ancient China. Mao wasn't appropriate because he's a great criminal and did practically nothing for us in the second Sino-Japanese war. Sun Jet-san, as another suggested, is a good choice and is actually known as the founding father of modern China.

 

[G-Max]

emperor

Don't you mean empress?

 

[Skwink]

Don't you mean empress?

What does that have to do with anything? Besides, it would be Empress.

 

[szhzh]

As a chinese, I indeed want to know whether Li shiming who building the great Tang Dynast is famous outside East-asian culture?

 

[szhzh]

Wu Zetien's a weird choice for China's figurehead definitely. She was a good monarch, but not among the best. Qin was probably the best choice for his cultural unification of ancient China. Mao wasn't appropriate because he's a great criminal and did practically nothing for us in the second Sino-Japanese war. Sun Jet-san, as another suggested, is a good choice and is actually known as the founding father of modern China.

While, Sun Jetsan is a great person but not a good leader in China. Though to young chinses, most of us like him much more than Mao zedong, we think what Sun Jetsan did to morden china is helpful while he didnt building a power. And Master Mao built a TG power we heat it.

 

[TheMulattoMaker]

As a chinese, I indeed want to know whether Li shiming who building the great Tang Dynast is famous outside East-asian culture?

I've never heard of him (her?). At least, the name doesn't ring any bells. I consider myself to be smarter than the average bear when it comes to history, but my knowledge is mostly European and American-based, I'm shamefully clueless on Eastern cultures.

I hereby submit the name Si Wang-mu as a great female Chinese leader. She helped the people of Path break free from the shackles of mind control. Oh wait, we need actual historical leaders instead of make-believe future ones? Crap. I guess I have nothing of substance to add to the thread.

 

[G-Max]

After doing some research, it does indeed seem that Sun Yat-sen would be an excellent choice for a leader of China.

Ying Zheng, AKA Qin Shi Huang, was obvious for unifying China, founding its first imperial dynasty, and ordering the construction of the first Great Wall.

Liu Che, AKA "Wu of Han", is generally regarded as the greatest emperor of the Han dynasty for his extreme expansion of China's borders; creating of a strong, centralized Chinese government; ordering the first known Chinese census; and holding the longest reign of any Chinese emperor up to that time and the second-longest in all of Chinese history.

Zhu Yuanzhang, AKA Hongwu, is also an interesting candidate for overthrowing the Mongol rulers of the time, reunifying China, and establishing the Ming dynasty.

Kangxi had the longest reign of any Chinese emperor and ruled during the apogee of the Qing Dynasty's "social, economic and military power", according to the Wiki. He was the grandson of Xiaozhuang, a fairly revered Chinese empress.

 

[Jerrymander]

It's because she's a girl. That's literally the only reason.

 

[szhzh]

I've never heard of him (her?). At least, the name doesn't ring any bells. I consider myself to be smarter than the average bear when it comes to history, but my knowledge is mostly European and American-based, I'm shamefully clueless on Eastern cultures.

I hereby submit the name Si Wang-mu as a great female Chinese leader. She helped the people of Path break free from the shackles of mind control. Oh wait, we need actual historical leaders instead of make-believe future ones? Crap. I guess I have nothing of substance to add to the thread.

While, Li Shiming is the emperor who really built the Tang Dynasty and Wu zetian is the wafe of Li shiming's son. Li Shiming's father is the first master of Tang Dynasty but in fact Li shiming leaded his army and pushed down the Sui Dynasty which is the dynasty just before Tang Dynasty. During Li shiming's leading and controlling, China had huge developed in its science, technology, culture and army and China expanded greatly during his leading time. Li shiming is a man and gentle leader. After his dead, his son, while I mean Li zhi , the 3rd manager of Tang Dynasty, then became to be the master and Li zhi's wife is Wu zetian. And I believe Tang Dynasty is the best dynasty in all Chinese dynasty.
In the mainland of China, the leader of china in the game civilization 3 is Li shiming because the political reason while outside the mainland of china the manager is Mao zedong who built a morden but barbarous power which controls mainland of China now.

Perharps, Qingshihuang, Yingzheng, is famous outside China because he is the first Emperor and the manager before he is just a kingdom. Liu bang is famouse because he built the longest dynasty and Liu che is famouse for the expanding of China during his leading. And others leader who maybe famous such as Zhao kuangyin and Zhu yuanzhang for the builder of a good dynasty.

While, I am puzzled who is Si wangmu? Perharps you mean Xiwangmu? I see the wikipedia but still know nothing about her.

Perharps, I'd like to say something about chinese history.
The first dynasty we think is Xia Dynasty from 2010BC to 1600BC and then shang dynasty from 1600BC to 1050BC and the next is Zhou dynasty to 211Ad. While during this three dynasty, the main interaction of human beings is slave and slave owner.

Then is Qin dynasty built by Yingzheng, Qin shihuang, while we can he Shihuang for the reason is that he is the first emperor of china. The secon dynasty is Han dynasty built by Liu bang and a famous manager is Liu che. The han dynasty include Xi han dynasty and donghan dynasty. After that is a chaos dynasty while there are three main kingdom that is Wei, Shu and Wu. The Jin dynasty is established and afer Jin dynasty is a deeply chaos period. Sui dynasty and the nest Tang dynasty is two good dynasty. During this period, the major relationship about society is farmers and bureaucraters.
Then is Song dynasty which is destroyed by Mongolia dynasty. During Tang and Song dynasty, lots of new relationships and members about sociaty grew up such as scientists and engineers. And mongolia built a dynasty in china called Yuan dynasty and the is Ming dynasty and Qing dynasty. During Ming dynasty lots of new technology such as astronomy and navigation is well developed. While Yuan dynasty and Qing dynasty is a bararic dynasty. Those two dynasty ruined chinese culture , science and technology and killed its people.

In the end of Qing dynasty, some westen civilizations such as England and France came and huge changes happened in china. Mingguo dynasty is a shot and chaos dynasty. During this period, japan made war on us without declared and killed lots of chinese people perharps much more than one hundred millions while it mean half of chinese people are killed by Japanese. It's indeed a dark and dismay period. The Japan ruined china about 14 years from 1931 to 1945. And in 1949, Mao zedong built a new dynasty called the people's republic of china. And now this power controls us. This dynasty is a not too bad dynasty. Though the government often cheats its people and ignores human rights. We call the power now TG because in china now, communist power is forbided to public on the internet.



At last, I think Qin shihuang , Liu che ,Tang taizong(Li shi ming), Zhao kuangyin ,Zhuyuanzhang, Sun Jetsan (Sun zhongshan) and Mao taizu( Mao zedong) is a choice for the leader of china.
And Cho ku nu , China pike rider , special musketeer or Jiefang Partisan is a good choice for the UU of china. Enn, perharps Chengguan is an interesting UU about china. Chengguan isn't a kind of army but in china now they master the city bararic and rude. We often say a joke that I have 3000 chengguans, I can liberate all over the world.

 

[szhzh]

Sorry ,the time of the dynasty has some wrong.
Qin dynasty is 221bc to 207bc
XiHan dynasty is 206bc to 8ad
Dong han dynasty is 25-225ad
Three kingdom dynasty is 220-228ad
Jin dynasty is 265-420ad
The chaos south and north dynasty is 420-581 ad
Sui is 581-618ad

Tang 618-907ad

The chaos ten county period is 907-979ad

North song dynasty is 960 - 1127 ad while south song dynasty is 1127- 1279ad
Yuan dynasty is 1127- 1368ad
Ming dynasty is 1368-1644ad
Qing dynasty is 1616-1911ad
Mingguo dynasty is 1912-1949 ad

Now the dynasty is communist dynasty, the mainland of china is called people's republic of china. And taiwan is controlled by the power of mingguo. dynasty's.

 

[szhzh]

After doing some research, it does indeed seem that Sun Yat-sen would be an excellent choice for a leader of China.

Ying Zheng, AKA Qin Shi Huang, was obvious for unifying China, founding its first imperial dynasty, and ordering the construction of the first Great Wall.

Liu Che, AKA "Wu of Han", is generally regarded as the greatest emperor of the Han dynasty for his extreme expansion of China's borders; creating of a strong, centralized Chinese government; ordering the first known Chinese census; and holding the longest reign of any Chinese emperor up to that time and the second-longest in all of Chinese history.

Zhu Yuanzhang, AKA Hongwu, is also an interesting candidate for overthrowing the Mongol rulers of the time, reunifying China, and establishing the Ming dynasty.

Kangxi had the longest reign of any Chinese emperor and ruled during the apogee of the Qing Dynasty's "social, economic and military power", according to the Wiki. He was the grandson of Xiaozhuang, a fairly revered Chinese empress.

Sun Yat-sen bulit a mingguo dynasty in China and leaded a great revolution but the time that he is the master of china only kept one day. He is a great person but not a good leader.

 

[Farm Boy]

It's because she's a girl. That's literally the only reason.

I also find it amusing that people are digging so far into what is fairly obviously a politically correct choice.