[BTS] WvO Monarch Shadow Game

Tonny · Sep 15, 2019

After a few months I decided to give Civ another try in anticipation of a possible SGOTM and/or Challenge game.
My game is rusty and not that good that I'm comfortable with playing at higher levels and being competitive with other players.
Therefor I'd like to play a shadow game.

Chosen leader is WvO.
Settings:
Monarch difficulty
Continents
Standard world size
Temperate climate
Normal game speed
6 random AI's
Aggressive AI
No huts/events

I play with Buffy.005

Here's the start I rolled.

Spoiler :

Fog gazing tells me that there could be ocean to the NW.
The warrior could go W, but I doubt he would reveal anything to help with the settling decision.
Another possibility is going E to see if there's anything good over there. Settling on the plains hill might be the best move.

What do you think?

Gumbolt · Sep 15, 2019

Maybe send the warrior west? That or 1NE to see if settling on plains hill has any value.

Right now SIP looks good.You have 3 river tiles to cottage. Plus a 3 commerce lake. Would there be more flood plains around that plains hill tile?

Do resources appear on river tiles? (Grassland down south.)

If there are more resources up there they can be shared with capital. SIP would have at least 4-5 more grasslands to cottage once you remove the forest.

Beeline BW here. Keeps the worker busy.

Tonny · Sep 15, 2019

I sent the warrior east and he revealed dry wheat up north east. Nothing special extra to make settling on the plains hill worthwhile. SIP is the choice here.

Spoiler Amsterdam :

I used my warrior to scout around the wheat and going counter clock wise scouting the northern and eastern area hugging the coast. It revealed a lot of seafood!
On turn 8 Buddhism was founded and on turn 17 Hinduism was founded.
Psycho alert!!! Shaka's scout showed up on my doorstep on turn 8. This could be interesting.

Spoiler empire @ t20, 3200 BC :

I finished researching BW on turn 21, sadly no copper visible yet. My worker can go onto forests to chop immediately.
My plan is to send the warrior to the west to scout the northern area of the jungle ending on the western end of the continent.

I believe that there are 3 very good spots to settle my 2nd city.
1. 1 south of the wet rice. That city can share the rice and 2 riverside cottages (although 1 being plains) and is along the river, only needing 1 road (1 north of rice) to connect with the capital.
2. 1 SE of the western clam. That city can share 2 riverside cottages and the pig, only needing 1 road (on the pig) to connect with the capital.
3. 1 south of the northern clam. That city can share both pig and corn and 1 riverside cottage, only needing 1 road (on the pig) to connect with the capital.
The problem is that cities 2 and 3 contradict with each other. City 2 can go 1 south, but that makes the far western pig site more difficult to settle. City 3 can go 1 east, but that loses the forest (need to chop it first for less hammers) and then it will require 2 roads to connect.
Prime candidate is city 1 for rice.

I intend to research Wheel-Pottery for early cottages.
The worker can chop the forest 1 west of the capital first and 1 north of the rice next. In the meantime I'll probably let Amsterdam start on the settler on size 2. My calculations show that it will be ready on turn 30 while working corn+lake for 4 turns and corn+pig for 4 turns. On turn 30 I can switch to Slavery while moving the settler. On turn 31 the second city is up and running. On turn 33 Rice is farmed.
After finishing the settler I let Amsterdam grow to size 4 building warriors and switching to a worker when a forest is chopped. At size 4 a 2 pop whip of the worker. Maybe a settler can be built instead first and then a worker.

Let me know what you think. Thanks.

Deathcrush · Sep 15, 2019

hm... I don't like that jungle right next to your 2nd planned city. It is good cause it's on the river and fast connection but i don't know u will need IW for that jungle.
I like more the pig/clam for the second city.
also I would 2pop whip a settler in the capitol.

Fippy · Sep 15, 2019

1nw of corn looks perfectly fine to me, with another city going 3w of Amsterdam.
6f share (corn) is best early, when your Cap builds a settler or worker.

Gumbolt · Sep 15, 2019

Aggresive AI and Shaka should make for some fun! No copper so far adds to that mix.

No copper for axes.Worst case scenario will be archery needed.

1NW of corn could run 3 food resources. I thought that tile south might have a resource. Settling in place right call here.

With 3 jungle next to the S of rice that adds 1 unhealthiness.

Warior to scout borders.

Early pottery is never bad with Willem. Ah also has some value long terms with pigs.

Just keep an eye on Shaka. May be monarch but he can still build stacks. Could maybe early on gift shaka 2-3 resources. See how things go.

Tonny · Sep 15, 2019

Thanks for the input!
I did some math...
Going for Corn spot first and Pig spot 2nd could give me 3 cities + 3 workers + both clam worked at turn 49, maybe a Granary too in Amsterdam. I included farming the Rice with the math.

I played on until turn 45 using the above mentioned math.

I started on a Settler immediately after Amsterdam grew to size 2. With 2 chops it finished on turn 30 and went North for the Corn/Clam spot.
I took 1 turn of anarchy when the Settler moved.
Utrecht founded on turn 31 and started on a Workboat. At size 2 I whipped the WB and Clam came online on turn 36.
Meanwhile I let Amsterdam grow to size 4, while my worker chops some more. On turn 42 I was able to 2 pop whip the Settler with overflow going into a Worker.
On turn 44 The Hague is founded 3W of Amsterdam.
Far away Judaism was founded on turn 38.
Shaka (acting like a psycho) decides that I'm his worst enemy... Oh wait, no... Oh wait, yes... Oh wait, no... Oh wait, yes...
I still haven't met anyone else.
Teching went The Wheel -> Pottery -> AH (just finished this one).

Spoiler Cities :

Amsterdam just whipped a Worker assisted with a chop. This creates massive overflow for a Granary next.
Utrecht also just whipped a Worker and overflow will go into a WB.
The Hague is just building a Warrior. (Should I have done otherwise?)

Spoiler Empire :

Horses to the SW are very nice to have. That makes a good spot to settle a city. This makes a total of 4 possible spots to settle more cities:
1. 1S of Rice
2. 1S of western Crab
3. somewhere close to Wheat... I'm not sure where exactly.
4. 1N of Horses

With this amount of food Libraries are very nice to have very soon, but on the other hand all the Seafood and Coastal cities makes having Lighthouses (and TGL?) very nice too.
Being Creative, I believe going for Writing first and Sailing second is best to do.

Any input is appreciated!

Gumbolt · Sep 15, 2019

You seem to have a good idea of what you are doing here.

Horses could be a blocking city if Shaka is down there. Must be 10 or so tiles away. You met turn 8.

That double crab city is pretty safe. Albeit it would free up a fog buster. Once you have workboats those crabs provide some very nice commerce.
Same for wheat city. Pretty safe.
Chances of Shaka stealing the horse? Seems low.
I would rex to 4-6 cities pretty quickly here once you have capital back to size 3-4. Cheap libraries here will be really nice.

GLH could be possible here but you would need the hammers to build it quickly. 200 hammers could be a big ask without a mine or a nice hammer tile. Not even sure you will need it to win this map. Where would you build it? On monarch level 1000bc or later could be safe,

With cottages and coastal tiles you will easily out tech the AI here. Especially with Aggressive AI. Could be a lot of AI wars here.

So do you detour sailing/masonry or head direct to writing. Do you take archery to be safe? Would Shaka declare with one city? Doubtful. His power rating needs to get much lower here for him to be a threat. Maybe archery can wait for now. Chariots would be no good against impi. Grabbing the horse least takes away a resource from him.

You could build one road to give your capital a trade route but I think that 1 commerce hardly matters. Better to get out the granaries and libraries sooner.

Hague. Maybe a warrior is fine. You could use a further fogbuster down south. Albeit I think barbs on monarch are not too bad. You will need more workboats eventually,

Shaka has 6 EP on you. He has met no one else. If this is continents I would normally expect 3-4 AI.

Tonny · Sep 21, 2019

Update:
Currently I'm at turn 53 and Writing will be teched next turn. Meanwhile I've found Shaka's borders west of the Horses.

Amsterdam (size 2)
Granary has been built and I'm building a Warrior now while growing. Working Rice and fp.
Utrecht (size 3)
16 :hammers:

into Granary at the moment. Worker has chopped 20 :hammers:

. Where to put it?
I think that putting all those :hammers:

in a Settler is best while working Pig/Corn/Clam.
The Hague (size 3)
Still building a Warrior. Working Clam and 2 riverside cottages.

Both Workers sitting on the northern cottage still have mp's left. Where should they go?
I'm thinking that the 1st one can go 1SW of Amsterdam to chop and the 2nd one can go 1SW of The Hague to chop.

There are many options to go from here on now. Here are they what I can think of.
Cities:
Amsterdam
- Library while growing to size 4/5 and 2 chops. No whip. Quickly 2 Scientists.
- Library while growing with 1 chop and 1 pop whip.
- Finish Warrior and start on Library while growing to size 5. Finish Settler first assisted with chops and a whip. Overflow into Library.
Utrecht
- Granary first with chop and whip.
- Settler first with chops and whip, overflow into Granary.
- Settler first with chops and whip, overflow into Worker.
The Hague
- Keep building Warrior.
- Chops and whips into Workboats for Crabs.
- Chops into Worker and whip, overflow into Workboats.
- Granary.
Expansion:
- 1S of Western Crab. Good for easy commerce.
- Between Horses and Pig. Very nice production city. (and blocking Shaka)
- 1S of Rice. Another helper city for Amsterdam.
- I'm not considering the "Wheatcity" yet. A bit dry for my taste.
- Around Spices isn't an option too. I already have one inside my culture and Calendar is far away.
Teching after Writing:
- Sailing for oceanic trade routes with Shaka (when possible) and Lighthouses for even more food.
- Hunting followed by Archery for protection.
- IW to see if Iron is nearby (possible protection) and on its way to Compass/Optics.
- Masonry. TGW hasn't been built yet. GLH is still an option. I will have a LOT of coastal cities.

The problem is that I can't choose between them. I've underlined the ones I think is best first.

Spoiler pictures :

Any input appreciated!

lymond · Sep 22, 2019

Really concerned by your lack of warriors in the south spawnbusting. Did you lose some?

I think best thing for your workers right now is chopping.

Pigs/Horse would be my first priority. I think I like a city on the open grass hill S of Dam (assuming pigs/horse settled on coast). It share tiles with two cities and makes use of some river tiles just W that pigs/horse would not grab...I think it makes best use of the land while still being a helper city. 2 cities can be founded in the N but agree that they are less a priority as backfill, but double crabs is decent city as you said.

Archery probably a must even with horses, as the S with that jungle is going to be a problem sooner than later. Archers mainly for barb spears.

I'd be hesitant to go for IW, but if you don't meet another AI soon you may have to. I'd use Alpha as a placeholder for a while after sailing and then make a decision later. GLH probably has merit here.

Tonny · Sep 26, 2019

Gumbolt said:
You seem to have a good idea of what you are doing here.

Thank you for these kind words.

lymond said:
Really concerned by your lack of warriors in the south spawnbusting. Did you lose some?

I haven't lost a single unit yet. I did not build many warriors, since this is "only" Monarch level.

Gumbolt said:
Hague. Maybe a warrior is fine. You could use a further fogbuster down south. Albeit I think barbs on monarch are not too bad

This is the reason why I didn't fogbust the south very well (or even at all).

I'm currently playing 2 different approaches.
1. Going for Crabs first. Tech path Writing->Sailing->IW->Math
2. Going for Horses first. Tech path Writing->Sailing->Math->IW

A complete write-up will follow soon.

Thank you for the input!

Tonny · Sep 28, 2019

As promised my update. I played up to turn 74.

Spoiler 1.Crabs first :

Spoiler 2.Horses first :

Spoiler Comparison :

I'd like to hear all your thoughts.

Deathcrush · Sep 28, 2019

lol Shaka just botched that city like a boss.

As for the hapiness i would go monarchy. Can you trade for it or shaka is being stupid again and you have no chance to trade with him ?

Fish Man · Sep 29, 2019

Is there any way to open this map without mods or save as WB? The "lock modified assets" is making it so that I can't open even with BUFFY...

Gumbolt · Sep 29, 2019

There is land north of shaka? Explore? Otherwise Monarchy? Why tech IW? Unless your worried Shaka will attack? He will attack once he get's into unit building.

Shaka has a nice capital but don't under estimate his 2c trade routes.

Chop GLH somewhere?

At some point let your capital grow.

Looks like your heading for construction and to take out shaka. So settle the island soon for 2c trade routes.

pigswill · Sep 29, 2019

I can't open the game because I don't have Buffy so I will content myself with commenting on the usefulness of keeping an eye on Shaka's power rating. If it starts climbing rapidly you may have a problem as chariots are pretty naff against impis

Tonny · Oct 6, 2019

Update!
Played on until turn 84 using the save where I settled the Horse/Pig site.

Maastricht was in danger due to barbarian activity in the south jungle. Therefor I whipped another worker in Amsterdam to create exactly enough overflow to finish a Chariot and send it there the same turn a barb Archer could attack the city. A few turns later all my barb troubles have disappeared into thin air.
Meanwhile I finished teching IW and found Iron east of Utrecht. I'm going straight to Construction to take on Shaka in the near future.
Furthermore I want to scout the Island just north of Shaka's borders with a workboat. I'm also building a Galley to transport Settlers/Workers to that region.
Excessive whipping caused some happiness problems in my cities. Finishing some Libraries and assigning Scientists should address the problem and those Scientists will help me tech towards Construction. Other cities are preparing an invasion army.

Spoiler Amsterdam :