WW2-Europe XXL

[Marla_Singer]

Loulong, you've forgotten to say that in 1944, Vichy regime ended to be replaced by an enlarged german occupation to the whole France. That had been done with not any fight. Could you find a better proof that Vichy was just a german puppet and absolutely not an independant France ?

If you want an accurate WW2 scenario, German should control all France in the end of June 1940. Vichy represented nothing but German guardianship on southern France. The fact that regime was made only of collaborators is inherent to the fact it was under german guardianship.

You're right when you say that Petain was more scared about communists than he was from nazi. Actually, in June 1940, when France has fallen, everybody agrees on the idea that Europe will be controlled either by the Nazis or by the USSR afterwards. It came in the mind of no one that the brits and the americans could come from the Atlantic Ocean. In the mind of no one except Churchill of course... (and for France De Gaulle).

Seriously, Vichy France represented nothing but a conqueered country under german guardianship. It's not because France had been invaded fast that it makes of them new Hitler's friend. That's disgusting to say so and you know why ? Because it makes it feel as if France was in the side of Germany by choice. And that is everything but true.

PS : Civ3 Democracy is invented at the end of the Middle Ages, just before the industrial age. That Democracy is modern Democracy... the basics of modern democracy is individualism (John Locke, UK) and the division of powers or check and balance (Montesquieu, France). The first country to apply Democracy was the US thanx to Jefferson who was a french philosopher fan. Voltaire, Rousseau, Montesquieu, D'Alembert, Diderot, Kant are all more important in the History of Democracy than Madison or Franklin.

Civ3 Republic is invented thanx to philosophy and code of laws at the end of the Ancient times. It is not presidential system, it's greek direct democracy. In the greek system, each city has its forum to discuss about current event. It has nothing to do with modern democracy.

 

[aeldrik]

The point of the scenario is to allow people to change the course of history, I would not use any other locked alliance than between the Germans and the UK if I could, I would leave all other things free (If I could configure them at first), but since this is not possible...
I wanted to make the scenario in a way in which the events of WW2 could be reproduced, but would also leave some freedom to change the course of action...

As to the goverments, this is not the CIV3 main game, this is a scenario, I changed units, techs, I don't see why this should be an issue????? There are quite a few different forms of democracy, wether you call them Republic or parlamentarian or Constitutional Monarchy.....

 

[LouLong]

Originally posted by The Last Conformist
That 'Legion Charlemagne' didn't exactly amount to a "large group" if a couple of websites I checked on it a while ago* are to be trusted; they say it never numbered more than 7500 men, which harldy made much difference on the Eastern Front. They do, however, have the distinction of being one of the last units to continue resistance in Berlin.

Now, I'd rather have Daladier as the French leader; he's surely the best known WWII leader of the third republic, the France that went to war in '39, which I assume is what is primarily being representated. (Why Chamberlain then shouldn't be leader of Great Britain? He wasn't the best-known war-time leader of the Great Britain that went to war in '39, simply.)

* The reason I was checking such sites was that a thread on the unhistorical rations between infantry and mounted/mechanized units common in civ mutated into a discussion of WWII death tolls, in which some guy claimed that 500k Frenchmen fell fighting for the Axis. I'm not believing this, because sources I consider highly reliable give France's total military losses at 300k, and of course very many of those died failing to halt the German invasion in '40.

I'm, for the record, not German.

Sorry if I was not clear. Did not mean to say Legion Charlemagne was a large group (it was actually much larger in the nazi propaganda than in real men BTW) but that this was larger than the figures that joined the SS. The main difference the Legion Charlemagne was made of men fighting against a cause (Communism, even if of course it included some "tetes brulees" like every generation has) while joining the SS showed a real motivation in the nazi cause (belief, opportunism,.... ?) which was much more limited in terms of figures.

About the casualties, the French are probably the country that lost people in the most diverse places and against the most diverse enemies (especially by comparison to their relatively "few" casulaties). A bit more than 100,000 during the main German invasion IIRC. Some afterwards fighting for Germany (remember the men from Alsace Lorraine were incorporated into the German army yet again, or the volunteers cf supra), many by allies bombardments (collateral damages ?) and eventually in the last fight against Germany.

The pb of Daladier is that he represents the falling of France. Even if it is a What if ? scenario, he just does not represent the schism that appeared in France after the 40 defeat so I am not sure he is the best leader for France (except of course if you just overlook the political turmoil of France (which is difficult to represent anyway) and just consider it as any other country in Civ3.

I sincerely hope we can have this discussion without our nationalities interefering

 

[The Last Conformist]

I hope so too, but I was recently in for some anti-German flak, and thought it was safest to point it out. People tend to assume just because you live in a given country, you also have the corresponding nationality.

I would take the pessimistic view that the Vichy/Free France split is not possible to accurately depict in CivIII, and thus consider France as "any other country".

 

[aeldrik]

Can some of you guys tell me what they think, let's call it a poll:

1- Who should be the leader of France in this scenario
2- should France be in a locked alliance against Germany

If there is one thing you learn from having more than one nationality, than this: it really doesn't matter a ..... which one you have.. people are the same all over the planet

 

[LouLong]

Originally posted by Marla_Singer
Loulong, you've forgotten to say that in 1944, Vichy regime ended to be replaced by an enlarged german occupation to the whole France. That had been done with not any fight. Could you find a better proof that Vichy was just a german puppet and absolutely not an independant France ?

Did I forget it ? I don't think I overlooked it but maybe that is the way it showed. So in that case I agree it was a kind of puppet state. But it makes its position all the more "interesting". It was invaded because Germany did not fully trust it (how could you trust someone you have put to the ground and FORCED to serve you...). But 1942 would seem like a better date to me...

If you want an accurate WW2 scenario, German should control all France in the end of June 1940. Vichy represented nothing but German guardianship on southern France. The fact that regime was made only of collaborators is inherent to the fact it was under german guardianship.

Now the limits to my agreement (it seems like I have the bad position being in-between you and Aeldrik). Puppet and serving state does not mean totally controlled. The administration of Vichy was not made only of "collabo", and Petain refused as early as Montoire to declare war along Germany meaning it kept some independance. Serving yes, complete puppet no. I am not specially fond of Petain nor of his ideas but I have to admit he did a lot to protect the appearance of independance by keeping some distances with Germany while giving them some things he had to (STO, Jews, volunteers and espacially food and equipment). Overall he defended quite well the little he could about "his" vision of France (now do you appreciate his vision ? I am not sure you like it more than me but at least he tried to protect it as much as he could). If France had been the complete puppet you refer to, there would have been no need to completely occupy it. Despite the weakness of the Southern soft belly of the Med, the invasion was not only done for military and strategical reasons but largely to be sure France would not rebel (it DID !) and to get even more resources. Now quite weak and inefficient and with backward politics that you could expect from an NCO sure but still more or less independant (at least it believed or wanted to believe so). That is why I think German pressure could exact gold and resources from it and that it should have very few and weak units but it still could be.

You're right when you say that Petain was more scared about communists than he was from nazi. Actually, in June 1940, when France has fallen, everybody agrees on the idea that Europe will be controlled either by the Nazis or by the USSR afterwards. It came in the mind of no one that the brits and the americans could come from the Atlantic Ocean. In the mind of no one except Churchill of course... (and for France De Gaulle).

We agree on that.

Seriously, Vichy France represented nothing but a conqueered country under german guardianship. It's not because France had been invaded fast that it makes of them new Hitler's friend. That's disgusting to say so and you know why ? Because it makes it feel as if France was in the side of Germany by choice. And that is everything but true.

Don't mix the head of a vanquished state where all the social and political organisation has just crumbled to nothing and the people.
Hitler had some respect for France but he still had the power to ask for what he wanted and France political figures did have limited choices, though they used these choices when they could (and when it was going well along their beliefs ie patriotism cf Petain's refusal to actually declare war with Germany). The people are just supposed to be followers.
STO, communists and the invasion of the South massively developed guerillas against the Germans but these could be represented by special units made by Free France (which provided airborne supply anyway). The fact that Petain served Germany did not mean French people were Nazis but that 1/ they did not have much choice as far as resisting militarily was concerned 2/ their leaders chose to keep as much autonomy as they could, even if that meant providing what Germany needed (+ of course the real collabo).
That situation existed as well in other countries where some leaders were really pro-nazis (Degrelle in Belgium or Quisling in Norway), countries that had been already completely invaded and where the show of autonomy was a real joke then. You can even see what happened in Hungary or Italy. They were allied with Germany but the people were not automatically into it. Even Horty (Hungarian admiral (!)- dictator) changed his mind before the end. These countries can be independant and allied with Germany. Vichy France can be independant and choose to ally with Germany if it wants to (or actually if the threat is too great) by fear if not by conviction (and Laval might have had the conviction too). With a very small army Vichy France would not be a real part of the war (only resisting) but could provide resources.

PS : Civ3 Democracy is invented at the end of the Middle Ages, just before the industrial age. That Democracy is modern Democracy... the basics of modern democracy is individualism (John Locke, UK) and the division of powers or check and balance (Montesquieu, France). The first country to apply Democracy was the US thanx to Jefferson who was a french philosopher fan. Voltaire, Rousseau, Montesquieu, D'Alembert, Diderot, Kant are all more important in the History of Democracy than Madison or Franklin.I]

Short, clear and excellent !

 

[LouLong]

Originally posted by aeldrik
Can some of you guys tell me what they think, let's call it a poll:

1- Who should be the leader of France in this scenario
2- should France be in a locked alliance against Germany

If there is one thing you learn from having more than one nationality, than this: it really doesn't matter a ..... which one you have.. people are the same all over the planet

I'd vote for... something that is not here !
Two France with Petain (or Laval) for one and well... De Gaulle for the other.
Vichy should be at war with Germany (simple war).
Free France should be in a locked war against Germany.

Sorry I know I am troublesome.

 

[aeldrik]

@ Loulong: you answer is ok, clear and short, that's something I can work with....
I thought while making the scenario of making two France, but that takes too much liberty from the players out of the scenario.... also the problem that simple war can't be set in the editor....

About it, which colonies would you place under the control of free France ? (most of them were in Africa, I think). What happened in the French colonies in the middle east, did they follow de Gaulle from the beginning?

 

[aeldrik]

just uploaded version 1.02 and all 5 saved games for a faster start...
have fun

 

[Dedin]

Played some more turns. I have to say that you really should add France, and even the States in a locked alliance with the UK. Only the 3 together were able to stop Germany in wwii. Thats the way it should be in your conquest too. A war on 2 real fronts will be an interesting challenge for the axis.
Besides that, great work aeldrik. Really love to play it (declared war on France myself)

 

[Mobilize]

France should be allied with the Commonwealth, Norway, Greece, and Yugoslavia. However the Benelux Countries, Sweden and Denmark should be neutral.

The US should remain independent because they didn't join until way later on. However.. the Allies can't stop Germany unless Russia or the US helps them and I always tend to put both of them on my side. I'd still keep them independent.

Has anyone tried this scenario as somebody besides the Germans? I tried as the Italians for kicks. I took a good ammount of Africa as well as Arabia to form the New Roman Empire which Mussolini dreamed of. However it was a long and bloody road to victory and I was economically and militaristically exhausted and the British were about to take it all back. I decided to quit because I knew the Brits were going to wipe me clean and the Germans were too caught up against France and Yugoslavia to really care.

 

[aeldrik]

Allright, if all those you tested the scenario think it would be better, France will be on a locked alliance with the UK (yes Marla, you eyes are not cheating you...) but only as long as more diplomatic options are not available in the Editor----
this will be version 1.03 in a week---

The Problem with the Benelux country is this, if I remove them from the locked alliance, as soon as the Human player is not playing as Third Reich, they are two most probable scenarios:
Germany will sign a right of passage Agreement, or will try to get through with the Marginot line--- both option are not realistic, even though placing the Benelux at war with Germany also isn't, I still see it as the lesser evil... Also, this way is the only to make sure they get eliminated entirely, and not that a few cities are left...

@Dedin: one of the most important part of the game, is getting the right allies, the part of the US as a neutral nation at first was very important, playing as the UK you should try to get them on your side no matter the cost...

@ Mobilize: I hadn't though of Italy as a player, but since it seemed to be a great game I might ask it as a standard option in the next version, thx for the hint---

 

[Mobilize]

I'm playing as Germany on Emperor and I recieved a ROP and a military alliance vs. France with the Swiss and the Benelux.. however, the Benelux declared war on me the next turn and I was so busy with disablink the Maginot Line and Yugoslavia that I didn't get much of a chance to use the ROP with the Benelux to it's full extent. So I invaded them and took them out in 2 turns.

Both America and the Soviet Union declared war on me under alliance with Britain.. this is how it stands.

Axis:
Germany, Italy, Slovakia, Switzerland, Spain, Sweden, Ireland, Finland, Rumania, Hungary, Bulgaria, Turkey

Allies:
Commonwealth, USA, Russia, France, Norway, Greece, Denmark

Neutral:
Portugal, Iran, Iraq

Dead: Poland, Benelux, Balts, Yugoslavia

Benelux, Poland, Baltic Countries, Yugoslavia are gone.
Italy took Lyons, Grenoble, Marseille, Nice from France.
I took Besancon, Metz, Paris, Lille, Calais, La Havre, Stassbourg from France.
Spain took Perpignan, Bayonne, and Toulouse from France.
Bulgaria took Skopje from Yugoslavia.
I had taken Vilnius, Riga and Kanaus from the Balts but then Russia took them. I have many many troops near Vilnius, Kanaus, Minsk, and Kiev at the moment. Russia had also invaded the Turks who are on my side and took a city of theirs in the north and are at the gates of Van.
Britain is being bombarded to hell by me. Ireland is about to take Belfast (with my help) however is very very very week.
America will probably go to peace with me because I have hurt their navy badly and destroyed a lot of filled-up transports which they were sending to Spain, France, and French Africa.
Oh yes, Denmark (which I had neutral in the editor) declared war on me after getting a military alliance with them and I against the Commonwealth. I easily took Odense and am about to take Copenhagen. I had also taken Bergen, Aldaren, and Oslo. Norway took Lingkoping from the Swedes and I'm about to liberate it and claim it myself.

Very very find summary, hopefully I'll survive the Russian onslaught and stop them and their stacked units with my armies and artillery.

 

[Strengefuhrer]

Give France "skeleton" forces. Weak and in the wrong places.
Give the neutrals token forces.
Give russia virtually NO ARMY. There is reason why Hitler managed to hit Stalingrad before turning back, and that is that Stalin had a ****ty army.
The Russians should win against the Germans only if they manage to hold out a long time, long enough to get their superior production going.
The Germans should have massive forces and relatively low production. Thus we have the real war situation : highly trained, strong germans but unable to replace their losses fast enough.
A note on infantry : I think they should be weakened defensively. I hate in CIV3 how wars (even with Panzers!) can degenerate into stable wars.
Continental WW2 was basically a question of air superiority and who could throw the most tanks at the other guy.

 

[Strengefuhrer]

Norway was neutral and should not be allied to France.
Russia was opportunistic, which officially is "neutral" and means trading with the Reich and grabbing what land they can (from the Balts and Finns).

 

[Mobilize]

Norway was not neutral in any way shape or form. They were allied with the British and Americans thus being allied with whoever else in the alliance which makes the French, Greeks etc.

Oh yeah and while we're on the topic of alliances, why is Denmark allied with the Allies, I thought they were neutral.. correct me if I'm wrong.

I agree with making the Russians weaker. They also attack me and they just create slaughtered with 10 armies and 100s of calvary and infantry as I retreat further back into Poland. You need to make them weaker up front and move their troops to the backside of their country where it takes a few turns to move because of roads.

I also think you need to boost the stats so the infantry differate from eachother. Make Germany have the best, then America, then British, then Russian, and have the Italians be the worst of all of them because they were rather pathetic . So boost their attack. Still have Italy's infantry better than the regular Infantry unit (you should keep this at 10.8 or 10.6). Do the same with the Anti-tank units but give the Americans a better one than the Germans because the bazooka was better than a panzerschreck.

How come the paratroopers use the modern paratrooper's graphics?

You should also take out TOW infantry and leave the Bazooka and the Panzerschreck only to the Americans and Germans, and perhaps give the British the Bazooka or make a new unit to represent the British PIAT. How about Machine Gunner units which came with PTW, those would be useful.

I also think that you should make the techs alittle more easier to research because with the way Germany's cost per turn is, you have to limit Science to 20% or lower and theres about 70 turns atleast to the next tech. Also why are light tanks researched by Heavy Armors, shouldn't they come from the start?

 

[aeldrik]

@ Mobilize, thx for this info on your game, ... as happened in your game, because of the neutral Benelux you had to go through the Marginot line... since the AI would not be able to do it right, I had to make Germany take on the Benelux first...
I wanted to make sure Germany takes on Denmark on the first turns, maybe I should try to make them Neutral, but then it might make it too easy for the allies to land close to Germany witht he AI playing the Third Reich, my optimal choice would have been peace with a dislike value (CIV2), but this is not possible....

@ Mobilize and Strengefuhrer: Russia needs an Army, how else are they supposed to take on poland and the baltics as it did happen??? but the Russian Army is a lot weaker than the German one, and they production capability is also weaker, they only have more population...

TO BOTH, PLEASE NOTICE THESE CHANGES TO THE RULES:
All units cost 1 pop point, this is a big disadvantage to Germany, since it runs out of troops, as actually happened!!!!
Bombers have A LOT STRONGER then in the Normal game, use them, they'll remove all defense effects of the Infantry, making this war a movement war!!!!

About since, they are about 5 years in the scenario, this means about 270 turns,.... this leaves time to Germany to research about 5-6 techs, which is all that is needed!!! I don't want the Germans or anyone else to start to fight with Modern Armor!!!!

Nationality is not for me a way to make the infantry different, this is not historically correct and just too open to discussions, I just don't want to make German infantry better than all the others, because it wasn't, for me it was it's organisation which was better, so it's up to you guys to make it better----


NOTE: All alliances are not only set because of History, but also because of Gameply. if the Third Reich doesn't take on the Scandinavian nations, it will not have oil, Aluminium or Uranium later in the game, making sure it would loose, a human player would see it and go and get the ressources, the AI is not capable of doing it....

 

[Andrewz]

Aeldrik, I just wanted to say I had a lot of fun playing on your scenario !

 

[Dedin]

Just found another bug. The game freezes after turn of week 3 1938 BC (game started in 1939 bc not ad). I rebooted and loaded the save game again. Same thing happened.

 

[aeldrik]

@ Dedin: I changed the BC- AD Date, thx!!
could you update a save file for the crash, I'll check it then, since it hasn't happened to me....