WW2-Global

Adler17 said:
AoI has a good working system, but this is depending on raw materials brought home from the colonies. There such a ship would be a good addition indeed. However even if we add raw materials here, some states had no possibility to bring them home or do not have any colonies, like Germany. Also it is in no way an aim to bring them home, but to conquer the world. The AI is too limited in this regard.

Please correct me if I´m wrong. I think, the reverse capture flag is connected with a Victory Point location and not with the capital of that civ. So the convoy can be targeted to a region far distant from the homeland. :) You only need a victory point under control of that civ. If no "city" of that civ exists in the target region, may be invisible cities could be a great help.

And no Axis convoys in the WW 2 scenario?? May be sometimes Rommel could really have had this opinion when all his German supply tanks were sunk in the Mediterranean Sea.:D

For a WW 2 scenario a better name for the flag unit would be "supply" or something like that (not rawmaterials).

So this are some of my thoughts about WW 2 scenarios, I wanted to share with the civ-community. Of course with the limited possibilities of the Civ 3 engine one must always be sceptical. ;) On the other side, if scepsis would always be best element in the world, we wouldn´t have any railroads till now on the globe. :D
 
Well Japan did not make an efficient escort system (what is one stupidity), Italy was in charge of the North African convoys (which says everything), and German convoys were mostly small coastal ones. And despite serious attemps by the Allies these convoy system worked until the last days. The seaway to Norway was never interrupted.
So a convoy unit for the Axis can be missed.

However your system of a reversed AoI style- I doubt it would work. If we have, for example, a VP location in Norway, Germany would go for that like Britain and France. But then this would be the major front, instead of a flank operation. But we can consider that. Although I have doubts.

Adler
 
Civinator said:
So this are some of my thoughts about WW 2 scenarios, I wanted to share with the civ-community. Of course with the limited possibilities of the Civ 3 engine one must always be sceptical. ;) On the other side, if scepsis would always be best element in the world, we wouldn´t have any railroads till now on the globe. :D

Civinator,

Yes that is true.
However:

I am sure this system is great for Age of Imperialism.
Still I do not think it will work applied to WW2-Global.

The reason is that while resources are crucial in CIV there are
no system to simulate Strategic Warfare.

Why Firaxis took the decision to leave it out is unclear and probably
we will never know since its obvious that they regard communication
with the Civ-community as uninteresting.

If anyone has a idea on how (for example) to simulate
The Battle for the Atlantic with the current system
please post here and let us hear about it.

Rocoteh
 
Rocoteh said:
If anyone has a idea on how (for example) to simulate
The Battle for the Atlantic with the current system
please post here and let us hear about it.

Hello Rocoteh and Adler17,

thank you for your answers. I never had the time to test it til now. But what would happen to American, British or Russian flag units that can be autoproduced only in the USA with these settings (the Russian flag unit produced by a Russian base in the US similar to the supplybases in the screenshot)?

I guess, they would try to reach the victory points in the region of Murmansk, if the "revers capture flag" is been set. But this is only a guess.:)

Best regards
Civinator aka Blue Lion
 
Civinator said:
Hello Rocoteh and Adler17,

thank you for your answers. I never had the time to test it til now. But what would happen to American, British or Russian flag units that can be autoproduced only in the USA with these settings(the Russian flag unit by a Russian base in the US similar to the supplybases in the screenshot)?

I guess, they would try to reach the victory points in the region of Murmansk, if the "revers capture flag" is been set. But this is only a guess.:)

Best regards
Civinator aka Blue Lion

Civinator,

Its an interesting idea.

The problem though is that the above described will not have any impact
on production.

Rocoteh
 
Rocoteh said:
The problem though is that the above described will not have any impact on production.

An indirect influence on production can be set in the editor. There is the possibility to give the civ a certain amount of money if a flag unit is been brought to the victory point location.
 
Civinator said:
An indirect influence on production can be set in the editor. There is the possibility to give the civ a certain amount of money if a flag unit is been brought to the victory point location.

Civinator,

That is interesting.

I will look at this issue in the editor.

Rocoteh
 
Rocoteh said:
Civinator,That is interesting.I will look at this issue in the editor. Rocoteh

I made some screenshots. P.e., if you set the "gold for capture" to 25, the civ that brings the flagunit to the Victory point location receives 25 gold for each flag unit. The flag unit must be transported by another unit to the VP-location. Of course the best one to tell you about these things is El Justo.;)

Edited: Screenshots deleted as they are not necessairy (I should have know this...:) )

Best regards
Civinator aka Blue Lion
 
Civinator said:
I made some screenshots. P.e., if you set the "gold for capture" to 25, the civ that brings the flagunit to the Victory point location receives 25 gold for each flag unit. The flag unit must be transported by another unit to the VP-location. Of course the best one to tell you about these things is El Justo.;)

Best regards
Civinator aka Blue Lion

Civinator,

Well as you know I have worked with the editor some years, so I think
I can manage this without advise.........................

or what do you think El Justo:)

Best Regards

Rocoteh
 
Rocoteh said:
Well as you know I have worked with the editor some years, so I think I can manage this without advise

It´s not about handling the editor -I know, you tought some prominent Civ 3modders directly and some indirectly how to handle the editor - , but of some problems that occure, when these settings are used, especially with fixed alliances. And I wanted to name the one who made this concept work with AoI, so that nobody should think, I´m the inventor of this great improvement in Civ 3 gameplay.

Best regards
Civinator aka Blue Lion
 
Civinator said:
It´s not about handling the editor -I know, you tought some prominent Civ 3modders directly and some indirectly how to handle the editor - , but of some problems that occure, when these settings are used, especially with fixed alliances. And I wanted to name the one who made this concept work with AoI, so that nobody should think, I´m the inventor of this great improvement in Civ 3 gameplay.

Best regards
Civinator aka Blue Lion

Civinator,

OK I see.

Anyway its possible that this system can be used for WW2-Global also.
Will probably be introduced with version 2.4 since version 2.3 already
includes more drastic changes than anytime earler in the history of
the scenario.

I appreciate your comments on this issue.

Best Regards

Rocoteh
 
In a PM-discussion some weeks ago Thunderfall told me that
the WW2-Global thread can continue beyond 6 000 posts.

Thus this thread (what I know) will soon be the longest thread
at CFC.
De facto Rhyes thread at Completed Modpacks is longer though since
it was splitted after 6 000 posts.

Rocoteh
 
AlCosta said:
But Fall From Heaven (from Civ 4) might catch us. We must stop them!

AlCosta,

Yes:)

However I think that thread de facto have been terminated since
a Fall From Heaven II thread have been launched.

Rocoteh
 
Hi Rocoteh!

I’m glad to see that you are still here and still active in making WW2-global even better. I’ve been without computer for two months (I had a faulty hard drive, and had to replace it :badcomp: ). But before that happened I have tried to play both as France and as the Soviet Union, and I thought I should share some of my observations with you before the next version comes out.

France

France was very hard to play. I don’t know why I picked France. Probably because I didn’t have the time to play Germany again, and also because there was a lot of players testing France earlier this year, so I may have been a bit inspired to give it a try. And in hindsight, I really wish I hadn’t. I got beaten up so badly by the Germans that it was humiliating. :blush:
I thought it would be a great idea to immediately invade Spain to keep my back free when the Germans attacked. Taking Spain was easy, but apart from Madrid I had very little use of the cities I took. It just took too long to build new units, and before I could send them to the front the Germans had already invaded, and started to wear down my defenses. I just didn’t have the quality nor the quantity needed to match the Germans. Perhaps I played too defensively, I was kinda hoping I would wear them out, but it was the other way around.
We clashed in Belgium. I took Namur from the Germans, then they took it back the next turn, then I took it back, and then the Germans took it back, and so on. :shake: I lost 30 infantry divisions in Namur, and all my tanks. Not even a British landing in Belgium could improve my situation. I realised that I could never win against the Germans so I gave up, turned to static defense and watched the Germans take Paris. I don’t remember which week it was, but it was before the end of 1939, and then I quit the game. :(
Maybe I should have played more aggressively, and invaded Germany, but I doubt that would have changed anything. It was just so damn hopeless, so I had to give up. And I guess my feelings reflect reality quite well. The Germans had a superior army. :bowdown:
I should point out that I played on Sid-level (as usual), and that I neither used draft nor mobilisation, but I don’t think that would have changed the outcome. I could have prolonged the war, but for what purpose? To wait for the Soviets to come and save my butt? That would have been a long wait. My conclusion is that the only way of winning as the French is to hope for an early German-Russian war. Otherwise you don’t have a chance.

The Soviet Union

After my defeat as France I tried the Russian side, and it was a huge difference. The Russians had more of everything. Sure, their units are much crappier than the French, but they make up for it in numbers. Best of all was that I didn’t get involved in any wars (until much later in the game). So I spent the first two years building workers and improving cities. At the end of the game I had 450 workers, plus at least 50 captured workers. I feared an early invasion by either the Japanese or the Germans, so I tied almost all my troops near Germany and Manchuria, but it turned out to be a mistake, since they proved to be non-hostile towards me. Instead I got problems with an endlessly aggressive British AI. :borg: I think Britain declared war on me at least three times. The first time came as a surprise. I had to move all my forces to Persia, and the war was going poorly, so I settled for northern Persia before I made peace with the Allies. The second time I was better prepared, even if I lost hundreds of infantry divisions (I refuse to build the crappy tanks the Soviets start with). I took the rest of Persia before I made peace. And the third time I had finally started to manufacture the T-28, and that really changed the situation dramatically. I pushed all the way through the Middle-east, and well into Libya/Egypt/Sudan before I ran out of steam.
After that I had also started wars with Norway/Sweden/Denmark and Turkey (simultaneously). And that’s when I started to have computer problems and was forced to abandon the game.
The greatest thing about Russia is that you don’t start in any alliance, so I had plenty of time to build improvements. The disadvantage is the crappy units you start with. They are only good as cannon-fodder.
There was quite a lot of city-razing in my game. A city in western China was razed, as well as Hiroshima. And in Europe the Germans razed Bordeaux, Toulouse, Gibraltar, Lissabon and Belfast. I also noticed that one of the minefields outside Hamburg was gone, so I assume the British destroyed it. Overall, the Axis performed very poorly, especially the Japanese. They never managed to take Hong Kong, instead they were being pushed back by the British, who swarmed all over China with hundreds of units, even after I cut off their connection to Africa by taking Persia and the Middle-east. This made me think. It is possible that the Japanese just had some bad luck, they usually perform better when I play as Germany, but still, they had great difficulties with the British, especially when they started to mass-produce Matildas. In my game the Japanese were pushed back all the way to Bejing, this was in week 15 1942, if the game had continued I’m certain the British would have conquered Manchuria before the end of the year. It’s very similar to the situation I had as France against Germany, the Japanese had to deal with an enemy superior both in numbers and in quality. So here’s an idea: why not build a line of Chinese garrison troops, like you have done for the Soviet Union, in southern China to prevent the British from attacking the Japanese too early in the game?
And speaking of which, I noticed that the Soviet line of troops is not complete. In Karelia the Finns could get into my territory, so I had to send troops to block them. And the Persians were even worse, they constantly violated my territory. I got really tired of asking them to leave, and once war had started with the Allies I made sure the Persians wouldn’t cross my borders again. It’s not very realistic that the Allies and the Finns can do this, so I would suggest you extend the lines in Karelia, and also build a line close to the Soviet border in Central Asia, and link it with a line of Chinese troops, to keep the Allies out. Another suggestion to prevent too much fighting in western China (Persians, British, Japanese, Chinese and even some French troops were there) is to remove the roads in that area. It might help. The Japanese are still not moving towards Indo-China as they should, they go after the Chinese Communists first, and they always reach Central Asia that way. A line of Chinese troops might reduce the likeliness of both Japanese and British border violations in the Kashmir/Tibet region.
Another thing I noticed is how difficult it is to research new techs quickly. I think that the science rate should be reduced just a little bit. As it was now, I couldn’t build T-28s until the latter half of 1941, and that’s way too late. Even at 100% science rate I was still researching 1941 techs well into 1942. So there’s no wonder the Soviet AI never had T-28s when I had all the early wars with them as Germany. The first tech in the tech tree always takes 40 weeks (no less) to research for the Soviets, even if their science rate is 100%.
 
Hyperborean,

Welcome back!

"We clashed in Belgium. I took Namur from the Germans, then they took it back the next turn, then I took it back, and then the Germans took it back, and so on. I lost 30 infantry divisions in Namur, and all my tanks. Not even a British landing in Belgium could improve my situation. I realised that I could never win against the Germans so I gave up, turned to static defense and watched the Germans take Paris. I don’t remember which week it was, but it was before the end of 1939, and then I quit the game.
Maybe I should have played more aggressively, and invaded Germany, but I doubt that would have changed anything. It was just so damn hopeless, so I had to give up. And I guess my feelings reflect reality quite well. The Germans had a superior army.
I should point out that I played on Sid-level (as usual), and that I neither used draft nor mobilisation, but I don’t think that would have changed the outcome. I could have prolonged the war, but for what purpose? To wait for the Soviets to come and save my butt? That would have been a long wait. My conclusion is that the only way of winning as the French is to hope for an early German-Russian war. Otherwise you don’t have a chance."
Hyperborean

This is very good news, since what you here describe is realistic.

I mean, on the high level you play it should not be possible
to win as France (with the exception of a German-Russian war, as you say).

"After my defeat as France I tried the Russian side, and it was a huge difference. The Russians had more of everything. Sure, their units are much crappier than the French, but they make up for it in numbers. Best of all was that I didn’t get involved in any wars (until much later in the game). So I spent the first two years building workers and improving cities. At the end of the game I had 450 workers, plus at least 50 captured workers. I feared an early invasion by either the Japanese or the Germans, so I tied almost all my troops near Germany and Manchuria, but it turned out to be a mistake, since they proved to be non-hostile towards me. Instead I got problems with an endlessly aggressive British AI. I think Britain declared war on me at least three times."
Hyperborean

AI works strange!

The poor diplomatic section of CIV 3 is a real problem.

"The second time I was better prepared, even if I lost hundreds of infantry divisions (I refuse to build the crappy tanks the Soviets start with). I took the rest of Persia before I made peace. And the third time I had finally started to manufacture the T-28, and that really changed the situation dramatically. I pushed all the way through the Middle-east, and well into Libya/Egypt/Sudan before I ran out of steam."
Hyperborean

That is a very good result.

"There was quite a lot of city-razing in my game. A city in western China was razed, as well as Hiroshima. And in Europe the Germans razed Bordeaux, Toulouse, Gibraltar, Lissabon and Belfast. I also noticed that one of the minefields outside Hamburg was gone, so I assume the British destroyed it. Overall, the Axis performed very poorly, especially the Japanese. They never managed to take Hong Kong, instead they were being pushed back by the British, who swarmed all over China with hundreds of units, even after I cut off their connection to Africa by taking Persia and the Middle-east. This made me think. It is possible that the Japanese just had some bad luck, they usually perform better when I play as Germany, but still, they had great difficulties with the British, especially when they started to mass-produce Matildas."
Hyperborean

City-razing is always frustrating. Here its probably auto-razing.

"In my game the Japanese were pushed back all the way to Bejing, this was in week 15 1942, if the game had continued I’m certain the British would have conquered Manchuria before the end of the year. It’s very similar to the situation I had as France against Germany, the Japanese had to deal with an enemy superior both in numbers and in quality. So here’s an idea: why not build a line of Chinese garrison troops, like you have done for the Soviet Union, in southern China to prevent the British from attacking the Japanese too early in the game?"

OK, I will consider it.

"And speaking of which, I noticed that the Soviet line of troops is not complete. In Karelia the Finns could get into my territory, so I had to send troops to block them. And the Persians were even worse, they constantly violated my territory. I got really tired of asking them to leave, and once war had started with the Allies I made sure the Persians wouldn’t cross my borders again. It’s not very realistic that the Allies and the Finns can do this, so I would suggest you extend the lines in Karelia, and also build a line close to the Soviet border in Central Asia, and link it with a line of Chinese troops, to keep the Allies out. Another suggestion to prevent too much fighting in western China (Persians, British, Japanese, Chinese and even some French troops were there) is to remove the roads in that area. It might help. The Japanese are still not moving towards Indo-China as they should, they go after the Chinese Communists first, and they always reach Central Asia that way. A line of Chinese troops might reduce the likeliness of both Japanese and British border violations in the Kashmir/Tibet region."
Hyperborean

This is very good ideas.
I will look over these issues.

"Another thing I noticed is how difficult it is to research new techs quickly. I think that the science rate should be reduced just a little bit. As it was now, I couldn’t build T-28s until the latter half of 1941, and that’s way too late. Even at 100% science rate I was still researching 1941 techs well into 1942. So there’s no wonder the Soviet AI never had T-28s when I had all the early wars with them as Germany. The first tech in the tech tree always takes 40 weeks (no less) to research for the Soviets, even if their science rate is 100%"
Hyperborean

Notes have been taken.

Thank you for a very interesting report.

Rocoteh
 
Hyperborean said:
Another thing I noticed is how difficult it is to research new techs quickly. I think that the science rate should be reduced just a little bit. As it was now, I couldn’t build T-28s until the latter half of 1941, and that’s way too late. Even at 100% science rate I was still researching 1941 techs well into 1942. So there’s no wonder the Soviet AI never had T-28s when I had all the early wars with them as Germany. The first tech in the tech tree always takes 40 weeks (no less) to research for the Soviets, even if their science rate is 100%.

This is how the game handles the difficulty levels. The only difference is the research rate. I play on Sid also. The first two techs are slow but I build a Library, University, and Research Center in each city, set a few of the largest cities on wealth, and up the rate once it makes a difference. By the 3rd or 4th tech, the research rate is down to 15 turns or so. And as more cities are taken, it can go even lower. My build order in conquered cities is Temple & Police Station(for pop resistance control), then research buildings.
 
WVCivnut said:
This is how the game handles the difficulty levels. The only difference is the research rate. I play on Sid also. The first two techs are slow but I build a Library, University, and Research Center in each city, set a few of the largest cities on wealth, and up the rate once it makes a difference. By the 3rd or 4th tech, the research rate is down to 15 turns or so. And as more cities are taken, it can go even lower. My build order in conquered cities is Temple & Police Station(for pop resistance control), then research buildings.

WVCivnut,

That is interesting info.

Thank you.


Rocoteh
 
Rocoteh said:
or what do you think El Justo :)
hi Rocoteh. my apologies for not having spotted this earlier :blush:

well - my first thought is that, yes, it can work assuming that the proper settings are put into play. however (and it's a very big however), i think that the dynamics of this fantastic scenario would be changed dramatically and that a great deal of testing and refing would be needed.

so on that end, i would only recommend it if you felt the desire to experiment with it all. quite frankly though - i think the model you have now is superb and we can go back to the old adage of "don't fix it if it ain't broke" :)

i don't want to seem like i'm tossing cold water onto the discussion b/c that's the last thing i want to do. but there's potential pitfalls w/ implementing this system.

my first and foremost concern is the utterly odd AI behaviours of shipping or moving these flag units when locked in an alliance. by that i mean that i had a devil of a time getting the AI to ships its goods back to the VP spot (yes Civinator! it's the VP and not the capital - the VPs were simply placed at the capital thus adding to the confusion of the terminology :crazyeye: ). when i say a devil of a time i mean that, for example, the Lowlands civ and GB were originally alligned in the alpha/beta stages of AoI v3.0. now, the LL TRs would continually drop off her flag units right outside of London and not Amsterdam. this occurred across the board (ie w/ france, the US, etc etc). so this is the dilemma i reckon...at least for me it was.

now the question is:
is there a way around this quirk? i don't know. however, Civinator and i had discussed a format which could possibly work w/ sea lanes added in (ie TRs etc could only travel these coast tiles in the middle of the ocean). but i remain skeptical.

one tremendous side affect though of all of this flag transporting is the unbelievable AI naval activity. so on that end Rocoteh, i see an opening for increased naval battles. however, w/ the locked alliances of WW2 Global, i just don't see it as possible. butit is indeed food for thought and there very well may be a work-around. i just don't have it right now...but it could indeed come to someone else!
 
This scenario is one of the best out there really enjoying it so far.playing as japan i can tell its going to be a challenge keeping the usa and england from destroying my naval fleet right from the start, tried being aggressive that didnt work well going to try and lure them in and take them out with my air units and ships combined with hit and run tactics will see how that works out any suggestions on how to play japan? anyhow grats on a awesome mod. will keep you posted on my progress.
 
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