WW2-Global

[LBPB]

Yamato and its sister ship Musashi were the biggest and most powerful battleships ever built...

That what I thought too !

Then I ask Rocoteh (hope he will read this) why on Hell is the Iowa class ship more powerful in this scenario, it even get the Blitz ability !!!

Roco, I have really the bad feeling that the US forces have been WAY overated in this scenario.

Here are the stats of both ships :
Yamato : Attack 90, Defense 75, Bombard 30, Move 6, HP Bonus 10, ROF 3, Special abilities NONE.
Iowa : Attack 100, Defense 80, Bombard 28, Move 8, HP Bonus 9, ROF 3, Special abilities BLITZ
In practice the Iowa win easily ! And even on multiple targets !!!

Please reconsider thoses stats. Japan is already weaker than the usa in all other units...

 

[vingrjoe]

LBPB, I just glanced at this forum and noticed your last post. If Rocoteh is going for a realistic approach, then the stats are IMO close.
The Iowas had far superior radar and fire control for their 16" guns. The Iowas could blindfire, the Yamatos could not. The 16" shell, although smaller than the 18", was proven just as good as the 18", and actually had greater vertical armor penetration than the 18" at longer distances. So that would justify the attack stats.
American ship crews were also superior in damage control training than their Japenese counterparts. Also, although the Iowas had less armor, it was superior design and quality to the Japenese. The USN was the only navy in the world who had the luxury of using 1.5 STS (special treated steel) plating on the hull exteriors. This would "de-cap" AP shells, thus preventing them from penetrating the armor belt. So, these factors coupled together justify the defense ratings.
The Iowas were faster at 32 knots(unconfirmed 35knots) verses the Yamato's 27 knots. Thus the movement difference.
As I said, I just started reading this thread, so I am unaware of Rocoteh's intentions with the stats, whether he is striving for realistic stats or not and can only speculate on his reasons for above mentioned stats.

 

[Sasebo]

I am kind of in agreement on the Yamato issue, but the Iowa class had radar directed fire, and I don't think the Japanese battleships did. That is a big reason why maybe.

Small update to my Germany game: I 'found' the Royal Navy. I saw a bunch of ships outside Gibralter, and sank them all. No losses but virtually every ship damaged to some degree. Sank 1 CA,2 CL, and 12 SS.On the Allied turn I see about 40!! DD and 15 SS show up S/SE of me, and my troops in Brest see 2 UK DDF, 2 DD and a BC headed south. So I am caught between two fleets and they are both between me and my ports. I am in big trouble! Not sure what I will do with this, but I may lose the entire fleet;it looks quite likely. Darn those optimistic Admirals! You think you know the AI, you have nothing but contempt for it, them it winds up and pops you in the head. From what my spy tells me, they just used about 80% of their fleet to lay a trap for me, and I walked right into it.

Rocoteh: Yet another reason to keep those DDFs; I just realized I can't even outrun the #$%%$#.

edit: Also I see Vingrjoe has beat me to it about the Iowas's radar.... D'oh!

 

[LBPB]

LBPB, I just glanced at this forum and noticed your last post. If Rocoteh is going for a realistic approach, then the stats are IMO close.
The Iowas had far superior radar and fire control for their 16" guns. The Iowas could blindfire, the Yamatos could not. The 16" shell, although smaller than the 18", was proven just as good as the 18", and actually had greater vertical armor penetration than the 18" at longer distances. So that would justify the attack stats.
American ship crews were also superior in damage control training than their Japenese counterparts. Also, although the Iowas had less armor, it was superior design and quality to the Japenese. The USN was the only navy in the world who had the luxury of using 1.5 STS (special treated steel) plating on the hull exteriors. This would "de-cap" AP shells, thus preventing them from penetrating the armor belt. So, these factors coupled together justify the defense ratings.
The Iowas were faster at 32 knots(unconfirmed 35knots) verses the Yamato's 27 knots. Thus the movement difference.
As I said, I just started reading this thread, so I am unaware of Rocoteh's intentions with the stats, whether he is striving for realistic stats or not and can only speculate on his reasons for above mentioned stats.

Thanks for your hint

I'm not an WW2 expert, anyway I've alway read that the Yamato was the powerfulest ship in the war... so thoses stat where strange for me.

Anyway nothing seems to justify the Iowa Blitz ability here...

 

[Overlag]

Clearbeard:

I am playing a Japan 1.5 on Diety. Germany took Poland and amsterdam but took nothing in France and its January 1940! Italy, hasn't done anything either. But I can only imagine they are having large naval battles. (Hopefully)

well in the game i was playing, Italy had a MASSIVE fleet in the Med, but now it seems totaly British/USA controled its week 6 of 1940 and ive not seen a Italian ship for 7 turns.....

Myself, im just rebuilding my surface fleet, Bismark compleated, and Tirpitz nearly finished. 6 CL,s 2 CA's and a few DDF's are hiding in the baltic. Any Uboats i create i keep inport till i have at least 6 of them, then i sneak them out, the AI instantly start to move back to the UK (cos they cheat and know exactly when im moving them out!), then i hide them again in Brest. From here i just do a hit a run on anything in the Channel, then hide them back in port. This tactic seems to be working quiet well! Once i get a port in the Med i will do the same here. Once i have 3 Bismark class ships, and more escorts i will move these to the med and try and control it to allow the conquests of Africa, and India through suez. But i have a funny feeling they wont make it that far...

 

[vingrjoe]

Heh heh...I love using blitz options on battleships in my games.

BTW, Rocoteh, I just downloaded the scenario, will give it a try soon. Also, there is a newer version of the WWII Iowa than the one your scenario uses. Here's the link if you want to update in the next release. Thanks.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=96549

 

[Grizx]

Sasebo,

Thanks very much for your thoughts and suggestions.

1. Yes my (crazy) idea for an early landing on US territory was for a diversiononly. With Destroyer Fotillas, that sort of diversion is very doable.

2. Being too conservative. Yes, maybe, perhaps. I took your suggestion and did a spy mission on Japan. Results are posted on the next two screen shots. I usually don't do those spy missions as it almost makes the game too easy, plus it costs a lot in gold. Anyway here are the results.

Japan US in the Pacific
BB........4............11
CA....... 5............ 5
CL........2............ 3
CV........2.............4
DD........17..........38 US - Mostly used as scouts, canon fodder
Subs.....0............29 US - Used as scouts, canon fodder
DDF......21.........3 Destroyer Flotillas
Transports 5.........1

In some ways I have over-estimated the size of the remaining Japanese Fleet. Only 4 BB's, 5 CA's, and 2 CV's remain, all pretty widely scattered and therefore vulnerable to defeat in detail.

However, Japan also has 21 DD Flotillas. That is a powerful force. They too are scattered, but the only things that can sink them without heavy US losses are Battleships. Maneuvering BB's with a range of 5 to catch up with DDF's with a range of 8 is a challenge. I can use Dauntless SDB's,, but those DDF's chew right through them. I look at the DDF's as fast pocket battleships that can carry troops and shoot down lots of planes. One DDF, especially if Elite, can sink or very seriously damage a BB and can handle a cruiser relatively easily.

Plus, if my BB's go after, say, 10 of the Japanese DDF's, that leaves another 11 to roam around in the Pacific with virtually nothing that can sink them. Granted. I am not worried about Hawaii right now, but Marcus, Midway and Dutch Harbor are vulnerable. 2 turns ago Japan tried for Dutch Harbor with 4 DDF's and 2 Marines. I had 5 BB's and 2 CA's (supported by 2 CV's) stretched out in a line in front of Dutch Harbor. The Japanese DDF's came within sighting distance, saw the line of BB's, and turned around and fled. Seriosly, that is what happened. 2 later came back to chery pick and sink one US CA.

Another reason I am being cautious is that the US is still short on ground units. The risk I decided to take was to build the US economy rather than build ground units early. That is hurting me a bit now, but US cities are now coming on line and pumping out units. I am short of transports to get them out into the Pacific. South America has also sucked up more ground units than I needed in Version 1.3.

Rocoteh: More thoughts on Destroyer Flotillas.

The AI seems to be building only Destroyer flotillas. That also appears to be true for Germany, USSR, and Britain. If it turns out that the AI continues to build them to the exclusion of other naval units,, that will take a lot of the realism and flavor out of the game. (no Bismarcks, no Yamatos, no transports.)

AS for the DD flotillas themselves, I like the concept. The AI seems to be using them verywell and they pose some real challenges and opportunities in the game. It would be nice to see them stay in the game if some of the rough edges can be smoothed out.

Current
DDF stats: 16(16).10.8 AA 3 Transport 1 Inf

I'll even backtrack from earlier posts and say that the stats are not too far off.

How about:........... 14(14).10.7 AA 2 Transport 1 Inf

A little less attack and lower speed would reflect both the small caliber guns and the inherent difficulty in making a well-coordinated attack by several individual units spread out over a given area. Also, rember a 5 or 6 inch gun has significantly less range than than 8", 12", or 16" guns. That means those DD's in that flotilla are getting shot at long, long before their own pop guns come into range.

The slightly lower speed, 7 vs 8, would reflect the inherent friction involved in moving a group of ships over a given distance as opposed to one single ship unencumbered by the distractions of sailing in formation.

The slightly lower AA also relects the dispersement of the ships. AA fire in WWII was most effective when concentrated, thus giving bigger ships with more deck space for AA more concentrated AA firepower. A DD flotilla is by definition somewhat dispersed in terms of firepower and also had to be concerned with not hitting each other when firing at very low altitude attackers.

These changes are realitvely minor and may even encourage the AI to build BB's, CA]s and even CL's.

Another rub may be the very high number of hit points a destroyer flotilla now has. A veteran DDF has 24 hit points; an Elite DDF has 26 hit points. That is a lot, even with a low relatively low defense of 10. Remember, a 5" or 6" gun has significantly less range than than 8", 12", or 16" guns. They had to get in relatively close to fire torpedoes as well, That means those DD's in that flotilla are getting shot at long, long before their own pop guns and torpedoes come into range. Except in the chaos of a large battle, or by surprise in confined passages, or limited visibility (night/fog), it is hard to see how a DD flotilla wuold even survive getting close to a BB. There is no way to account for that in the game engine other than to give DDF's fewer hit points.

(If the Bismarck, or other German captial ship had gotten loose among allied convoys in the North Atlantic iit is highly unlikey it would have been sunk by DD's or reduded to a flaming hulk, barely afloat as I have seen happen in the scenario. Heck, even cruisers and light cruisers would avoid taking on BB's unless they had a decisive numerical adavantage.)

(In WWII, a squadron of British cruisers with 6" and 8" guns was not able to close with the Graf Spee (forward and aft turrets of 3 11" guns each) off South America without taking serious damage, and the Graf Spee was only slightly damaged.)

It might work better to lower a Verteran DDF to 18 hit points and an Elite DDF 20 hit points. That would make them a little less invulnerable, but still very tough.

The primary role of DD's In WWIII was convoy escort, anti-sub, anti-air, and light naval gunfire support for amphibious ops. Unless I am very much mistaken, it seems to me that most DD attacks against capital ships in WWII were either acts of desperation, deliberate sacfrices to allow other ships to escape, or moving in to finish off the kill.

DD Flotillas with stats of 14(14).10.7 and 18 hit points (Veteran) would be able to do those things in addition to their primary roles.

Again, please take my comments in the positive spirit in which they are intended.

Grizx


Screen shots attached:
#1 and #2 Japanese forces in the Pacific, 1940, Week 41
#3 Screen shot showing some of the challenges defending against destroyer flotillas.

 

[Grizx]

USA SID Ver 1.5

Week 41 1940

Screen shot showiing Japanese forces after condutcing a spy mission.

#2 of 2

 

[Grizx]

USA SID Ver 1.5

Week 41, 1940

This screen shot and notes address some of the challenges in defending against Destroyer Flotilla (DDF) invasions.

I have started surrounding vulnerable cities near the front lines with a complete ring of DD's to slow down a DDF attacking from extreme range long enough for the nearby BB's to come to the rescue.
Even that is inadequate, becasue a couple of turns ago a force of 4 Japanese DDF's approached Dutch Harbor with a landing force. However at Dutch Harbor I had 5 BB's and 2 CA's extended in a North/South line west of the city. When the Japanese AI saw that line of BB's blocking the approach and realized it could not invade the city that same turn, It turned turned the DDF's around and left.

One obvious and simple solution is to fortify all ports with lots of troops/HMG's. However, I am very short on infantry right now.

But for those of you with undefended or lightly defended coastal cities, be warned.

Scouts and recon are important, unless you are rich enough to spy every turn and steal plans.

Sasebo - Excellent point on drafting troops. Yes, if the contiental US was in danger I would draft like crazy, but it produces poor quality troops, hurts the economy, and I try not to do it. But I do tend to forget about it, so thanks for ther reminder. I could draft troops for Marcus and Midway to diminish the risk of surprise capture.

Grizx

 

[Grizx]

Vingrjoe, Sasebo, Rocoteh

LOL. I played my first US Ver. 1.3 without even realizing the Iowas had the blitz

Then I figured it out on my second game (i'm slow).

For what little it is worth. I support Rocoteh and Vingrjoe on the Yamato vs the Iowa stats.
Besides, one of the reasons I play the US is for the rush of power in launching fleets of Iowa BB's.
Still Civ/gane balance is important too, and to have a good scenarios for all Civs, upping the Yamato might not hurt.
But I would keep the Iowa blitz for now. If the US can't control the seas, it is lost. Germany and USSR can win , I think, without control of the sea.

Am interested to see how Iowas stack up against Hindenbergs, but it looks like the German AI will not build any in my current game.

From playing the US in my current game, I would tend to agree Japan needs help. But I really neeed to play a 1.5 japan game before I say anything for sure.

Some incomplete thoughts that have crossed my mind:

- Give Japan more workers at the start.
- Give China tons of workers that Japan can then capture.
- Make Thailand neutral so Japan can capture it and use its cities.
Or, better, just give it to Japan as was done with Bulgaria and other German allies, but start it out with only enough garrison troops (labeled as Thai)
to keep Britain or China from getting it easliy.
Can do same labeling with Thai navy.
- Reduce the size of the Dutch and French starting navies in the Pacific.
(They really seem to hurt Japanese naval forces quite a bit.)
- Give Japan a Special Fortress unit wonder.
Allow those wonder SF units to move but no attack factor. (Or an HMG wonder)

Grizx

 

[Bluemofia]

Downloading. I think the 13 hour download is scarry.

 

[Grizx]

Associated Press
Washington, DC

Breaking News

President Roosevelt and Prime Minister Winston Churchill today held a hastily convened joint news conference to announce their expectations for an early and victorious end to World War 1.5

The big surprise of the news conference were the extraordinary details of the war at sea. Churchill, who arrived in Washington on the Royal Yacht Brittania after what he described as a "leisurely and uneventual cruise" across the Atlantic, was clearly plesaed to announce that the Atlantic is entirely free of U-Boats. "Indeed", he said, "there are no hostile submarines anywhere on the High Seas." He did acknowledged there was one Type VII and one Type IX bottled up in the Baltic and one Type VII under blockade in Bordeaux. But he assured all Americans that these remnants of the Nazi U-boat menace were not a threat. He said that what remained of the German surface navy, 1 light cruiser, and 25 of the German version of the new Destroyer Flotillas were also all bottled up in the Baltic Sea, and posed no immedite threat.

On a cautionary note, President Roosevelt pointed out that there were some 40 Russian subs and three rusting battleships in port at Sevastopol, but that these were likely to be destroyed by advancing German forces.

Churchill attributed this astounding naval success to a new weapon. A "destroyer on steroids", he called it. He said "it can sink battleships, and cuts through crusiers, light cruisers, and old fashioned destroyers like a hot knife through butter; they can detect and sink U-Boats with ease, and can even carry troops."

Churchill said Britain now has 95 of these new Destroyer Flotillas deployed around the world. He said that Britain still has some old pre-war ships in service, (9 BB's, 3 CA's 3 CL, 7 old DD's, and 2 troop transports) but that they were now mostly assigned to less active theaters like the Indan Ocean and South Altantic. Churchill said that Britain has not produced any other types of ships since the war began.

Churchill was anxious not to unduly embarrass President Roosevelt, since it has become obviouis to all that American Admirals have for some time been hesitant to venture out into the Altalntic for fear of U-Boats and a rumored German battleship called the Bismarck. When asked about the Bismarck, Churchill said he was not sure he had ever seen one , but that if he had, "it was very ong time ago indeed." Besides, he elaborated, "Why would anyone build such an expensive,slow, obsolete weapon."

The Americans have been very slow to recongize the power and flexibility of the new "destroyers on steroids" - a fact that American officials have been very reluctant to discuss or acknowledge.

Providing information heretofore unknown, Chruchill said that the bulk of Germany's modern armor wa now In Afric deep in the heart of the jungles of the Congo approaching Stanlyville. He said that while this advance theatened key British posessions in South Africs, he saw it as an opportunity.

With the bulk of Germy's mobile panzer forces slogging through the jungle, Western Europe was relativley lightly defended. He said that if America would quickly produce powerful air and ground forces an early invasion of mainland Europe could begin soon, especially since the US would not have to worry about producing any more ships, except for a few troop transports.

The Royal Navy he said wa in the process of cleaning up remaining elemts of the Imperial Japanese Navy in the Pacific and the the americans should not concern themsselves on that account. "Our DD Flotillas rule the waves", said Churchill, chomping on his cigar and flashing his famous V for Vistory sing.

Roosevelt, looking somewhat chagrined, was quick to say that the US would immdeiate send one of its own new steroidal DD Flotiillas with a troop tranport to take a Marine Division to capture a Portugese colony and than start pumping in air anf ground forces to help the Britiish defeat the Germans in Southern Africa. He also said that powerful US paratroop units and all available air power would immediately be sent to the US airfiled in southern Ireland in preparation for an invasion. AS an afterthought he hadded that the entire US Atlantic Fleet would immediately sail for Europe, bbut he could not immediately explain how it owuld contibute to the war effort. Churchill suggested that the US fleet miught be scrapped in East coast port in order to speed aircraft production, but quickly changed the subject when Roosevelt gave him a dirty look.

Both Churchill and Roosevelt agreed that the USSR, with its backward economy and paucity of troops would not pose any problem once Germany was defeated - and that the same applied to Japan.

Roosevelt concluded the new conference by looking to the future saying the Pentagon was studying plans for fighting World War 1.6. Some of the old battleship admirals seemed to be looking forward to that prospect, although Secretary of War Rumsfeld has been forceful in arguing that the Destroyer Flotillas, although decades ahead of their time, respresented the more modern, faster, flexible, all-purpose, all-in-one, naval force he is looking for in the seconfd half of the 20th Century. "The British have done it. Why can't we?", he asked "The DDF is the wave of the future", he said. It replaces Battleships, Cruisers, Light Cruisers, Destroyers, and most transports. "A Navy of One! What more could you want?"

Filed by AP syndicated reporter Grizx

 

[LBPB]

For what little it is worth. I support Rocoteh and Vingrjoe on the Yamato vs the Iowa stats.
Still Civ/gane balance is important too, and to have a good scenarios for all Civs, upping the Yamato might not hurt.
But I would keep the Iowa blitz for now. If the US can't control the seas, it is lost. Germany and USSR can win , I think, without control of the sea.

Grizx, can you explain me the reason why you would keep the Blitz ability on the Iowa ???

thx

btw nice story with your playtest

 

[LBPB]

Rocoteh,

I don't knowif you've already seen it, but few days ago, Riptide released a the Japanese Chi-Ha Medium Tank unit.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=113164
It would be cool to implement it in the game to replace the generic tank unit used for Japan (more flavor graphics is better IMO)


Other Japanese units from the same artist :
G4M "Betty" Bomber : http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=102088
KI-43 "Oscar" Fighter : http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=92194
Type 5 "Chi-Ri" Medium Tank : http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=108327

 

[Adler17]

For BBs: Have a look on that statistics. But be aware with the German´s ship armour: Although it might be a bit thinner quality and structure make them better than even bigger armour. I mean in the last fight of the Bismarck she was hit by thousands of shells but only 1 (!) was penetrating the armoured belt.

http://www.battleship.org/html/Articles/Features/BuildBetter.htm

Adler

 

[Adler17]

Week 45 part 2:
I regrouped my forces in Africa and went into attack position for the next turn.
Asia: Thailand lost it´s cities North off Bangkok. Therefore Japan conquered everything up to the line Canton- Chungking. But not Yenan and Sian. Also Panay and Davao are Japanese.

PC:
The surviving 65 (!) US DD retreat from the Med. 18 British CL and 4 DD are heading north off the Iberian peninsula. I think the US ships will do the very same. Also 34 British DD try to leave the Med. 10 of them were sunk by the Italians.

Adler

 

[Adler17]

Week 46:
My Luftwaffe and artillery sink 34 US DD.
Agades in Africa is mine. Bangui is defended by a garrison ouside of the town. Also no problem in capturing. Basoko is also not defended and the single defender of Stanleyville is not a big problem. Moyale is taken by infantry.
In the North Sea a British Elite Submarine is sunk by my S- boats. DD HMS Firedrake is sunk in the Channel by U 40. The British submarines HMS Trident, Shark and H 28 are sunk by my Otsu U 66. U 33 sinks another British submarine.
Unternehmen Weserübung: Marines capture Hammerfest. With the last resistance forces beaten and the last city taken Norway ceased to exist.

To be continued.

Adler

 

[LBPB]

Japan 1.3 - Late 1944

Operation DDay Storm on California !
Operation is now beginning, there's the initial plan

 

[Adler17]

Rocoteh, there is a better Me 109 unit than Winter´s at CDG. Unfortunately it seems to be that the link had been deleted by closing the forum. So is there a possibility to PM it to you?

Adler

 

[Overlag]

Japan 1.3 - Late 1944

Operation DDay Storm on California !
Operation is now beginning, there's the initial plan

nasty!

my game as Germany so far is going very well its Wk35 of 1940, i have two TG's:

TG1: Bismark, 3 CA's, 3 CL's, 2 Deutshland and 3 1939 DDFs
TG2: Tirpitz, 2 CA c2's, 2 CLs, 2 Deutshland, and 3 1941 DDFs + CVc3 underconstruction.

TG1 has cleared most of the North atlantic, and is repairing in La Coruna. Brit fleet is almost no where to be seen now, I outnumber it

Both TG's, and my Sub screen will then Invade Belfast around week 45 i guess.

The Brits are loosing out greatly in Africa/Middle east, Japan has managed to take a line of cities all the way upto the Iran border.

USSR just joined the war on the Axis side, which is now causing great issues for India, and Africa.

The Brits have, however managed to retake (or raze) a few cities in the pacific, seems Japan is going totaly for its land war against china (only 3 cities left)

Images LINKED due to size....400-700kbs

Europe

India

middle east

UK