WW2-Global

[Rocoteh]

I strongly disagree on removing lethal air bombardment. First I think this is the way airpower works. I am particular fond of my fighters "strafe-run" (their weak bombard) low health units. This feels right for me.
If the AI can t kill units by air, I can "kite" the AI better.
What is kiting? The expression comes from an other genre, MMORPGS like Everquest or daoc (or the kid version WoW). By kiting you lure the AI(or even human players) into chasing you while they can t reach you.
In WW2 leave something undefended (like a piece of artillery) which is out of reach of enemy land units. The AI will try to kill that lone artillery and move units in that direction which will cause them to loose good defensive position, air cover, being at a key spot etc.

IarnGreiper,

OK things will stay as they are with regard to that.
Thus lethal air bombardment will remain.

I do not want to implement to many changes in version 2.1, since
that may disrupt the playbalance that after all seems to rather
good now.

Rocoteh

 

[Sasebo]

Just a small note here,since I mentioned the AI did not have SNLF in my last post, of course as soon as I started playing again they showed up. I get the feeling from their numbers and how they've arrived that Japan was building a fair amount of them, and their production is finally coming on line. It's hard to stop them from drawing blood with that mv 2 and 20 attack.

I have managed to retake Sian after Japan took it from the Communists. It was really hard, China is not very good at offensives at all. Plus, after they stole all of Thailand from under my nose, the UK sent tanks through C.China and was trying to steal Sian too! I've cut my ROP with UK just to slow them down. Other developments:

As of Week 19,1940 Germany has taken Poland,Denmark, and the Low Countries/France but razed Marseilles for some odd reason. Also took Gibralter. They have left Greece and Yugoslavia alone though. Italy has razed two French cities south of Libya, but that is about it.

US navy is patrolling off the coast of Foochow and merrily bombarding Japan's navy, which is hiding in ports. I've helped them with my 2 flotillas and 1 CA. Having a Chinese navy is fun, but we are such amateurs at this. I had a TR loaded with tanks and artillery try to land on Formosa and found out they can't do that.

 

[Rocoteh]

Sasebo,

"Just a small note here,since I mentioned the AI did not have SNLF in my last post, of course as soon as I started playing again they showed up. I get the feeling from their numbers and how they've arrived that Japan was building a fair amount of them, and their production is finally coming on line. It's hard to stop them from drawing blood with that mv 2 and 20 attack."
Sasebo

They will be autoproduced in version 2.1.

"I have managed to retake Sian after Japan took it from the Communists. It was really hard, China is not very good at offensives at all. Plus, after they stole all of Thailand from under my nose, the UK sent tanks through C.China and was trying to steal Sian too! I've cut my ROP with UK just to slow them down. Other developments:

As of Week 19,1940 Germany has taken Poland,Denmark, and the Low Countries/France but razed Marseilles for some odd reason. Also took Gibralter. They have left Greece and Yugoslavia alone though. Italy has razed two French cities south of Libya, but that is about it."
Sasebo

These Civs have their cities protected by wonders so far
in the BETA I am working with now:
(Colonys excluded.)

France, Belgium, The Netherlands, Spain, Poland, China,
Communist-China and Japanese controlled China south of
Manchuria.

"US navy is patrolling off the coast of Foochow and merrily bombarding Japan's navy, which is hiding in ports. I've helped them with my 2 flotillas and 1 CA. Having a Chinese navy is fun, but we are such amateurs at this. I had a TR loaded with tanks and artillery try to land on Formosa and found out they can't do that."
Sasebo

That sounds interesting!

Rocoteh

 

[oljb007]

I have been out sick and just got done reading all the posts.

I have made this point before in the past and I'll make it again now as I think it is prudent. "Fine tuning" of this scenario to the level we are discussing for the most part mandates that "special" versions be made or "house rules" be implemented in regards to some of the issues being brought up.

AA batteries disrupt the veracity of game for which Rocoteh has spent so much time. Current situation in regards to AA renders air units nearly useless against cities. However, their removal opens another avenue of exploitation against a week AI. As is the case with Artillery and a number of other issues that have been discussed.

I use AA batteries as a general example, as I believe they are OP on the situation as whole. However, I believe that some sort of "consideration" will have to be made as their absence will only further to weaken the AI. such as more "stationary" Flak in cities.

As a result, when changes are made and as Rocoteh mentioned we should also keep in mind how the AI will handle the changes.

ie In my game I don't attack Russia during "winter months" I dont build AA as I love seing air raids over germany. I dont build artillery either.
Unfortuneately AA makes air raids over British cities not an option but hitting units in the channel are. so its a give and a take. Hornblower, as per your post I am sure you can appreciate this.

So, something to chew on is the idea that some of the issues coming up now may need to have unique remedies such as "house rules" as fixes, rather than global changes which have their fare share of negative impacts.

 

[oljb007]

oljb007,

I hope AI will be able to defend itself from massive bomb-raids
after the removal of AA.
This is an aspect you have think about with regard to most changes.
How will AI handle it.

Rocoteh

Indeed. what about dropping in flak with no movement points? say 3-4 a city in the UK and in select Russian cities? painstaking I understand but my faith in AI using air superiority is not that high.

 

[oljb007]

cant find post:

but someone mentioned tech speed and I wanted to comment on it. I agree with your comment about letting the AI get techs ahead of you as it does make it more challanging. However, I was commenting in regards to putting in a "heavy/long range" bomber for germany in the later tech stages. I like the idea of "future possible techs" for germany. Unfortuneately at the speed at which germany's science progressed I feared that bomber tech would never be reached.

This definately needs to be play tested to see just what techs are reachable and by when under what circumstances.

 

[Sasebo]

China 1.9,Emp.- week 32,1940

Events are beginning to come faster now. USSR declared war on axis in week 25, and then peace was made week 30. I've no doubt loads of units were killed, but the only city taken was Lubno? in eastern Europe, and Riga/Vilnius were razed. US took Brest! and UK liberated Gibralter. Both were lost again soon after, but I am surprised the AIs were so on the ball with invasions.

UK has wiped out ALL of Italian Africa! , except El Agheila, which fell to France. This might explain the increasing numbers of troops that UK and even France has sent to help me with Japan. Such kind allies.

I have liberated the coast up to Tientsin, with Yenan and Peking on the menu next. I have built up a certain critical mass I think, and things are moving, though our units are so weak that losses are inevitable. I built all Tanks instead of light tanks, but I might have been better served with the latter. Tanks seem to get targeted first on the defense. Saw a Japanese bomber again for the first time in a while, so they do build more.

My navy has brazenly sailed up the sea of Japan and bombarded their rubber and coal resources, and in general caused havoc. We even landed troops in Japan itself and seized workers. I can't believe they let me get away with that. Where are the Yamatos? The US heavy elements are still hanging around the Phillipines/Formosa, that might explain some of it.

I will give an annual report on week 36, it won't take long because we don't have much compared to most any other nation you might play.

 

[Rocoteh]

Sasebo,

Thank you for the report.

"Events are beginning to come faster now. USSR declared war on axis in week 25, and then peace was made week 30. I've no doubt loads of units were killed, but the only city taken was Lubno? in eastern Europe, and Riga/Vilnius were razed. US took Brest! and UK liberated Gibralter. Both were lost again soon after, but I am surprised the AIs were so on the ball with invasions"
Sasebo

In the current BETA I working with placing wonders in European
Soviet to stop city-razing.

"I have liberated the coast up to Tientsin, with Yenan and Peking on the menu next. I have built up a certain critical mass I think, and things are moving, though our units are so weak that losses are inevitable. I built all Tanks instead of light tanks, but I might have been better served with the latter. Tanks seem to get targeted first on the defense. Saw a Japanese bomber again for the first time in a while, so they do build more."
Sasebo

That is a very good result.

"My navy has brazenly sailed up the sea of Japan and bombarded their rubber and coal resources, and in general caused havoc. We even landed troops in Japan itself and seized workers. I can't believe they let me get away with that. Where are the Yamatos? The US heavy elements are still hanging around the Phillipines/Formosa, that might explain some of it.

I will give an annual report on week 36, it won't take long because we don't have much compared to most any other nation you might play."
Sasebo

For sure an unusual raid!

Thank you and welcome back.

Rocoteh

 

[Hornblower]

oljb007,

I agree with your thoughts on this page. "House Rules" has a less disruptive effect on the already limited AI than by removing certain aspects.
I also agree that it is advantageous for the AI to get ahead of the human player when it comes to tech speed. At present I am playing as the Germans on Deity level. It is week 18 of 1941 and I am researching Air 1941. Research in 1939 was about 27 turns. Now with Western Europe conquered in 1941 that has reduced to 17 turns. I am behind on tech comparative to the AI but I am enjoying the disadvantage so to speak. By investing heavily in infrastructure my tech speed is slowly increasing. I may not catch the AI but that shouldn't be a problem in the long run anyway. I prefer fighting the more superior units as I have to adopt a more combined arms approach.
With this in mind I am also in favour of leaving the lethal bombard turn on for selected air units and selected artillery. Perhaps not all variants of the units but some will allow the AI to possibly take advantage of that lethality.
I am also happy to say that the AI on this playtest is incredibly competitive from a naval perspective.
Japan now has 32 Yamatos
Britain now has 9 King George V's BB's and seems to enjoy building escort carriers with 5 in service.
USA has concentrated on C2 BB's but only has 5
this hasn't stopped them from producing 1941 DD's either as there are plenty of those in the escort groups as well.

 

[Rocoteh]

oljb007,

"AA batteries disrupt the veracity of game for which Rocoteh has spent so much time. Current situation in regards to AA renders air units nearly useless against cities. However, their removal opens another avenue of exploitation against a week AI. As is the case with Artillery and a number of other issues that have been discussed."
oljb007

As said earlier I am prepared to reintroduce AA should this
not work out well.

"ie In my game I don't attack Russia during "winter months" I dont build AA as I love seing air raids over germany. I dont build artillery either.
Unfortuneately AA makes air raids over British cities not an option but hitting units in the channel are. so its a give and a take. Hornblower, as per your post I am sure you can appreciate this.

So, something to chew on is the idea that some of the issues coming up now may need to have unique remedies such as "house rules" as fixes, rather than global changes which have their fare share of negative impacts."
oljb007

The houserules you use are very interesting.
Since the game-engine sets sharp limits for what can be done,
houserules are a good way to increase realism.

"Indeed. what about dropping in flak with no movement points? say 3-4 a city in the UK and in select Russian cities? painstaking I understand but my faith in AI using air superiority is not that high."
oljb007

I will consider it.

"cant find post:

but someone mentioned tech speed and I wanted to comment on it. I agree with your comment about letting the AI get techs ahead of you as it does make it more challanging. However, I was commenting in regards to putting in a "heavy/long range" bomber for germany in the later tech stages. I like the idea of "future possible techs" for germany. Unfortuneately at the speed at which germany's science progressed I feared that bomber tech would never be reached.

This definately needs to be play tested to see just what techs are reachable and by when under what circumstances."
oljb007

Yes I agree. There is a need for playtest.

Thank you for the comments and welcome back.

Rocoteh

 

[Adler17]

German science rate should be made much bigger as in most areas they were much more advanced than the allies.

Adler

 

[oljb007]

German science rate should be made much bigger as in most areas they were much more advanced than the allies.

Adler

I am (was "debating") a big fan of changing the german science rate. However, hornblowers game on diety shows that his rate is at 17 turns. I haven't had a chance to check my game but I imagine it is or would be around the same as we both followed similar strats. which isn't too bad but may need help. what it does that I like is force the german player to focus on more than just building weapons and conquering the world as that alone may not be enough. ads a little complexity.

In regards to your comment about being tech advanced. Germany starts off technologically advanced, Panzers, Bismarks, subs and better infantry. As was the case in real life. However, as history went and the germans knew this they slowly began to loose the tech advantage. By wars end the allies had caught them and even surpassed them in some aspects, not all but some. ie long range heavy bombers, long range fighter aircraft P51 with drop tanks covering the atlantic gap! range not speed ahem, me262! :S Tanks I am not sure about but would guess not. Navy for certain they lost the race as germany lost controll of the atlantic. Granted alot of their demise came as a result of lack of resources and production compared to their enemies. So, germany having a high science rate may not be the best thing as it would then deviate away from the course of history, not to mention hinder an already weak AI.

Some small adjustment may still be necessary but not back to the 8-10 turns in the beginning of the game that it once was in the older smaller version.

 

[oljb007]

oljb007,

I am also happy to say that the AI on this playtest is incredibly competitive from a naval perspective.
Japan now has 32 Yamatos
Britain now has 9 King George V's BB's and seems to enjoy building escort carriers with 5 in service.
USA has concentrated on C2 BB's but only has 5
this hasn't stopped them from producing 1941 DD's either as there are plenty of those in the escort groups as well.

Its been at least a month and half since I played the huge map but I too found that the AI was doing far better than norm in regards to Navy. The US was building C2 heavy cruiser like mad. forced me to pull back my area of control as the frequency of naval encounters was faster than I could swap full strenth for weakend naval units due to distance to port. it was nice to see.

 

[Rocoteh]

On German science rate:

My impression is that when playing on emperor level Germany
will be able to build units when they were available at historical
relevant times.
The same seems to hold true for most other Civs (at emperor level).

Rocoteh

 

[Rocoteh]

"I am also happy to say that the AI on this playtest is incredibly competitive from a naval perspective.
Japan now has 32 Yamatos
Britain now has 9 King George V's BB's and seems to enjoy building escort carriers with 5 in service.
USA has concentrated on C2 BB's but only has 5
this hasn't stopped them from producing 1941 DD's either as there are plenty of those in the escort groups as well."
Hornblower

That is very positive!

Rocoteh

 

[Adler17]

Oljb007, when the war ended German science was much more advanced in areas. Not all of course:
1. The tanks. Still Tiger and Panther had no real opponent on the field, although the first M 26 appeared. But soon the Pnather 2 would have come.
2. German infantry guns, MG 42, MP 44, and so on, were also mostly better than the allied counterparts, if they existed.
3. German jet fighters. About 200- 250 of them, mostly Me 262 but also some He 162, saw action. You can estimate that these few planes shot down in about 6 month effective use 1.000 planes. These fighters were a real danger. One attack in March 1945, in which 22 Me 262 attacked a huge bomber force of over 1.000 enemy planes, lead to the destruction of 21 allied planes. By no German losses.
The Me 262 better used would have done a tremendous damage on the allied planes. But too late.
4. Navy: In 1945 most of the German surface ships were sunk indeed. But the Uboat force was still active and fighting. Just now the new type XXI and XXIII boats arrived the front. 8 ships the type XXIII could sunk until the end. Only 2 XXI however were on patrol and only one saw the enemy. It was Adalbert Schnee´s boat who made a trainings attack on CA HMS Norfolk. He did not fire because Dönitz ordered not to do so. The British did not recognize him until they finally believed him when he told them after the war. No, also here the technological advantage was retaken.

Adler

 

[Rocoteh]

WW2-Global version 2.1 will be delayed.

I abstain from setting any new target-date.

Rocoteh

 

[Adler17]

Rocoteh, you start to become like the great software firms: When it is done. Hopefully you do not start producing bugs... . But if you release it after New Years day I won´t be able to have a look until March as I have written exams in January and February. That´s why I ceased my work here at least partly. In this time I won´t visit this forum. Also I think you should make a version 2.2 with the then released (hopefully) SOE units.

Adler

 

[El Justo]

I think you should make a version 2.2 with the then released (hopefully) SOE units.

i second this!

 

[Bob1475]

Rocoteh - While I am a little disappointed I am not surprised. I am fairly sure we are fast approaching the point of diminished return between your hard work and the number of players and the amount of improvement. Most of us are on to CIV IV and once new utilities are developed we will start to see more scenarios. (I am very excited about the new memory utility released by a member - we should never underestimate the community's ability). While CIV 4 scenarios seem a long way off I think it will come faster than we expect.

I see many of the the discussions here are coming full circle in terms of bombardment, "house rules", AA, etc which tells me that we are near the end.

Of course if you do issue 2.1 I will play it but I would rather see you spending time on CIV 4 scenarios.

Best regards