Yet Another Immortal SE Walkthrough

[Gryman]

I have really enjoyed and learned from walkthroughs by Aelf, Acidsatyr, Sistuil, Jihe and many others who take the time to post on these forums. So much so, that I have decided to attempt an SE Immortal Challenge of my own. I have already completed a lengthy turnset through 200 bc which I will include shortly. I welcome any advice/comments/criticizms from the community.

Civilization: Egypt
Leader: Ramesses The Great (Spiritual, Industrious)

Unique Unit: War Chariot
Strength: 5

Unique Building: Obelisk
+1`
can turn 2 citizens into priest

The Settings:

The Start:

The Save:

 

[Immaculate]

Not much food for an SE.

 

[Ecofarm]

That save is an amazing start for Roosevelt in emporer level. I might play it just to dominate quickly, but it is in vanilla so I shan't. Post the proper save when you get a chance. I suppose I could comment on the screenshot.

 

[Ecofarm]

2 grass farms (chop something after you hook up sheep/gold/farm) with the sheep and wheat = +6 food. That means you can work the hill and have 2 specialists (priests?) in your capital. Unless there is some food nearby, that leaves a grass-hill until watermills (5-6 population). Cottaged river plains can only be worked in leu of 2 specialists. You might want to settler move 1 south, away from all those plains. If you were financial, the riverspice would yield 3c in cap center? I think warrior nw is a given, unless you want to delay for a tech or 2 (possible on standard size). Find horses, kill neighbor. After building 1 wonder and killing a neighbor, I would tech metalcasting, run an engineer in the city without wonder (you aren't building wall or pyramids, are you?). GE = either lightbulb machinery for crossbows or rush something. If you take crossbows, you probably tech to CS anyway and get macemen. If you avoid monarchy and lightbulb theo, you can then lightbulb CS with a priest. The problem is then switching to scientists, unless you want to settle a GP or lightbulb divine. You might be able to get 3 priests fast because of UU, and get shrine, theocracy, and CS. I don't know if a shrine would help diplomacy much. From Theo, you can go paper (skipping CS and using 1st 2 GP for shrine and theo), education, (philosophy prereq), liberalism. The problems are not being philo, and switching to reasonably pure scientists.

 

[Gryman]

That save is an amazing start for Roosevelt in emporer level. I might play it just to dominate quickly, but it is in vanilla so I shan't.

sorry, wrong save file, it is in warlords and it has been corrected.

 

[Gryman]

Settled in place to reveal Irrigated Corn along w/ Wheat, Sheep and Gold available in Thebes Cross. Start on worker and send the warrior out to explore the land. He finds a hut or two for gold, finds stone nearby , and then is badly wounded by a lion.

Worker finishes and begins his first task of farming corn, Thebes begins another warrior to help explore. In the meantime I am introduced to my first neighbor. Great!

I actually don't mind Monty in my games as long as he is in range to attack early, which it seems like he might be . However, I am pretty concerned after meeting my next two neighbors .

Three aggressive leaders, it's gonna be a bloodbath on this continent for sure! I am also concerned about trade opportunities, as these guys are all very tight.

Anyway, Thebes created warrior while growing to 2 pop then began settler. I decided to settle southwest of corn in order to immediately quarry stone as well as eventually claim fish. I know many of you won't like the large overlap but I feel this is less of an issue in SE and I actually prefer to share a resource such as corn. The cultural view of Shaka and Monties locations:

Memphis first builds a worker while using corn tile while Thebes builds a couple of fogbusting warriors then a settler in order to hook up horses. I get the horses online just in time to fight off the swarms of barbs attacking my cities, i do have to whip Thebes for my first defender though. I have chosen to tech monotheism in order for an early slingshot into theology, double promoted War Chariots are fierce beasts! Remember, the obelisk allows Memphis to assign two priests at an early date.

And another Neighbor:

Man am I happy to see this Guy! I didn't expect another civ but it looks like I may actually have a trading partner afterall.

Production, not food or science, is emphasized early in order to get the needed infrastructure into place. Once Pyramids are in, Representation supported specialists will keep up the pace. The Oracle is built in a far away land in 1280 BC and in 1080 BC I finish my own Great Wonder:

A first look at the cities post representation:

I am running the civics: Representation, Slavery and Organized Religion as I did found Judaism from Monotheism. However I will switch to No State and Paganism as soon as Alphabet is in in order to attempt to trade with the Buddhist Sect. War Chariots are in heavy production, the Great Prophet is slower than expected to Ligtbulb Theology .

continued on next post...

 

[Ecofarm]

Without myst, religion might be out of the question.

 

[Ecofarm]

That post was a little late, I grabbed Mono too, but barbs overwhelmed me before I had horses hooked up. Around 1400bc. I didn't build settlers fast enough, but built little else. You seem off to a great start to me.

 

[jihe]

Why would you run priests instead of scientists? much rather lightbulb philosophy than theology

heavy production, the Great Prophet is slower than expected to Ligtbulb Theology .

 

[Gryman]

The knowlege of Alphabet is completed and I search for trades among this land of great hostility. Relations with Monty have been cancelled by request of Churchill, who happens to be the only man sane enough to negotiate trade. I worked to soften Shaka up in the following years and even managed to please the backward savage by gifting him Mysticism, IW, and Monotheism but he would not give up Maths.

He would not give pottery, and I actually removed priesthood for the sake of WFYABTA but this is the map of the known world with iron revealed:

Hmmm.. No copper, no Iron in my claimed land. Time to put those War Chariots to the test. If they are to go solo w/out any support from melee or archers they had to go quickly. Need I specify the first target of aggression?

My first great person had indeed come a prophet from memphis, however, I forgot about him for a few turns after teching meditation and missed out on founding Christianity (Churchill). I decided to use him on The Jewish shrine instead as much uf my first chariot army was already built and I could use some extra cash.

The preparations for war are complete:

I'll admit that I was rather consumed by the passion of the war and didn't take a shot for some time after this. I will manage this better during the next war. The War Chariots outperformed my expectations and made quick work of the northern half of Monty's empire. I obviously firsted sacked his capital then followed with Tlaxiala -> Texcoco and finally captured Calixtlahuaca with reserves from the homeland. I earned a Great General which was settled in Heliopolis. The war was fast and effective and I even had to wait a couple turns before Monty would talk again.

Map of the conquered territory:

In the meantime Thebes has completed another Great Wonder:

Peace Negotiations w/ Monty:

Not bad, pick up free mathematics in order to chop libraries/courthouses in newly liberated cities. I did have to sink 1 turn of research at 0% to get this deal but it is still a steal!

Another trade negotiation with Winston:

I realize it says I'll have to do better, but this was the trade I just forgot to refresh the screen before offering. Not a bad deal really, I doubt that i will step into HR but I will have a wine to connect before long. Stables will be a nice addition before my next war also. Libraries and Courthouses are the top priority in captured cities.

A view of my main cities:

I am really hoping for a GS here as I just finished COL last turn and would love to grab philosophy and pacifism to fuel the push towards liberalism. A GE would likely be saved for either Machinery, for Mace, or Engineering, for Treb. It seems like a waste to hurry any wonder w/ Industrious plus Marble and Stone.

Well, I finally backfilled fishing so the next build will obviously be a work boat followed by commerce buildings, Market & Grocer and eventually Wall Street, missionaries when nothing else is available.

OK, where are you at Vale? I think I may try and overflow to treasury here w/ HE production multiplier. I plan on expanding before long and will try to demonstrate in game how this would work to support REX (Rapid Early Expansion). I will chop 4 forests, two already prechopped, and whip two pop into a cheap military unit in order to produce as much treasury gold as possible.

A map of the known world:

I know, it is very backwards for this date, two sentry chariots are exploring south into shaka right now. This is where I have stopped playing, I have many decisions to make at this point in the game.

1. who to attack next? I am worried about Shaka running away with the game once he clears all the jungle he started in and gets on track. However his Impi's would shred my current army of WC. I am leaning towards Monty but we'll see what my exploring chariots reveal.

2. Go for Hanging Gardens? I think that i will still go for the hanging gardens even though I, and other civs, have had math for some time now. I have stone and am industrious, in my capital I already have 2 GE points from Pyramids, another 2 would be nice. Also, because I was late to pottery I lack granaries, the instant growth would be huge and even used to whip granaries in every city. I know Industrious is not a free ticket to build every wonder in the game, but It does help grab an extra one or two. I think I could benefit from chopping this in Thebes w/ last 4 forests.

3. Tech Path- If GS from Thebes: lightbulb Philo and research CS->paper->Education->Liberalism If GE from Thebes: CS->Metal Casting then either bulb Macinery for Mace and war or wait and bulb Engineering for Treb and war.

The Save:

 

[Gryman]

Why would you run priests instead of scientists? much rather lightbulb philosophy than theology

I first intended to grab early Theocracy for double promoted WC along w/ christianity. The war came sooner, because I lacked Iron, and actually easier w/ Monty than I had expected it to. I don't mind though because I did still found Judaism, got the shrine running, and still have the GL to hopefully crank out a couple of GS on the way to Liberalism.

 

[Ecofarm]

Since you have fishing, you can no longer lightbulb liberalism itself with a scientist. Generally, things go well until we meet the other continant. Perhaps you should get optics for faster tech research, trade opportunities, and early diplomatic opportunities. If Mansa is over there...

You are spiritual, thus could go cast system/slavery and generate a couple Merchants - especially if you run pacifism. You could lightbulb philo, go caste + pacifist. If you research sailing, the Merchants will give (in order of preference): Paper, Guilds. I would stop generating Merchants after 2, hopefully using the 1st one for paper (save a scientist for education if you get one first?). After that they give Banking then Printing Press. After Liberalism, you might want more merchants, as scientists will bulb maritime techs and lightbulbing astronomy is silly since you cannot invade with galleons. Inter-continental invasions with galleons are possible pretty much only with ragnar or another financial.

Why is Heli not 1NE to farm 2 river grasslands?

I think you would have to hit Shaka next. Perhaps Ragnar if you had founded Christianity, to own Churchill, but Rag and Churchill are both too far away to be next targets. Churchill will probably not hit you even with different religions, and is protective. Ragnar may not have borders with you.

Hanging Gardens or Macemen for Shaka... Once you have macemen in Zululand, you could lightbulb guilds and upgrade/send Knights to keep the war going, into Ragnar (with the help of Churchill?). I think this island is big enough for domination/spacerace if you take Ragnar and vassalize/eliminate Churchill after international trades are flowing.

Standard size map = 6 civs? Are there 1 or 2 civs unmet? An isolated civ, even Mansa, might be backwards if you trade well (I rarely trade well and have little doubt that an isolated, tundra Mansa would still out-tech me).

 

[vale]

OK, where are you at Vale? I think I may try and overflow to treasury here w/ HE production multiplier.

Heh, caught me lurking. Without going through all the math since I'm not sure what you will end up in the completed hammers out of the cost after whipping (really depends on when you whip and what you whip), but each forest should be producing 60 if you can make sure the overflow coming from the whip plus the per turn production covers the hammers that have to overflow. So you should produce somewhere on the order of 240.

Edit to add: if you whip the unit the turn before it would complete normally you will get at least 240. Doing it with a war chariot for example would be slightly more than 275.

Reedit to add: Sorry if these numbers are lower than your expectation. All my examples were at marathon speed settings so forest chops and whips were giving 90 hammers before modifiers.

 

[baboon]

Nice job, I'm curious to see the rest of this

 

[CivSetä]

So far so good, great start! Looks like this one is going better that other current games...

 

[Gryman]

Edit to add: if you whip the unit the turn before it would complete normally you will get at least 240. Doing it with a war chariot for example would be slightly more than 275.

Reedit to add: Sorry if these numbers are lower than your expectation. All my examples were at marathon speed settings so forest chops and whips were giving 90 hammers before modifiers.

I did realize your examples were on marathon but 240 is nothing to sneeze at this early in the game. If it helps me fund research into a push for liberalism, or even allows me to expand more aggresively early on then it is worth the investment of 4 forests. With the HE in place Heliopolis will primarily produce units and units only, the opportunity cost is chopping for buildings which i need few here with 7 cities. I.E. Libraries, Universities, Theatres and Courthouses can be built in other 6 and future cities for National Wonders. Most units will complete in 2 to 3 turns at most w/ HE eliminating the need for these chops. Rather than chop stable/forge/factory/coal plant at 100% -%125 later on I can chop at a 200% conversion rate early on where the treasury will fund a deficit.

 

[vale]

One more caveat although I'm sure you already know. The forest chops will only yield 60 each if they are in the 30 chop radius of your HE city.

 

[Gryman]

One more caveat although I'm sure you already know. The forest chops will only yield 60 each if they are in the 30 chop radius of your HE city.

yes, I was aware of this also. I was able to get around 240 in 500ad using the overflow and HE though. I decided not to whip due to low food yield in my HE city. But the gold came at a valuable time and helped upgrade on the war front and push the effort.

Turnset is complete from 200bc to 780ad, I will try to post tonight or tomorrow.

 

[Gryman]

I began this round by setting full production of Thebes onto the building of the Hanging Gardens. The construction of an aquaduct was first needed in order to open up the wonder and actually was more a project than the wonder itself. After a chop and the labor of mined tiles this was what remained of the Gardens:

I made one more chop and the wonder was actually completed in two turns at 100bc. 7 free Pop in two turns with two forests , thank you Industrious.

I teched construction first in order to get Heliopolis a jump on producing catapults for the next war. Hmmm... Speaking of war, I still had to pick out my next target. Shaka is actually showing some redeeming qualities, despite the savage that he is:

Churchill had asked me to join the war that has been waging between himself and Shaka which I declined. Winston is stuck at the bottom of the map with only 3 cities but his protective bows seem to be keeping Shaka at bay.

Anyways, My Great Person in Thebes came an Engineer as I had feared but he will come in usefull for a tech not too far down the line. I maxed the Scientists in Thebes in order to Hurry along the birth of Plato in 275ad.

Of course he bulbed Philosophy!

I had already self-teched Drama in order to access the culture slider and get some theatres going. Besides, I had my eye on a source of dye that I could acquire . Civil Service was almost in by now and I decided to go for Metal Casting next since I couldn't get it in trade. My engineer was anxious to lightbulb Machinery and I didn't want to keep him waiting. Besides Macemen should come in handy as Monty had signed his death wish by planting this city:

The recently liberated cities had no cultureal presence in the area and would be overwhelmed upon a cultural expansion by Monty. Oh well, This nut came asking for trouble, and trouble he got. The city obviously falls easily and even comes with a pair of workers but I did stall for a while as I didn't feel I had a force capable of invading his homeland yet. In the meantime I found this trade with Shaka:

Not a horrible deal, the extra trade routes were helpful as I was running pacifism (expensive ) for a short time in order to speed a GP along in the hopes of some help with Education. I even had open borders with Ragnar at the time but I was still in need of a little extra cash. I sold a couple cheap techs, a couple to Ragnar, and I think I sold Drama to Winston. Still, I wanted a little more gold to fuel the push into Monty with a couple shiny new Macemen:

I overflowed 16 hammers without a whip as every worked tile will be critical here with lightbulbed Machinery a turn away. Two workers chopped four forests in two turns while building wealth for a turn between. The result was 152 base at 200% Heroic Epic Production yielding a overflow of 247. Don't forget I lost 50 gold from the treasury on the turn between:

And enough overflowed production to complete a Maceman on the following turn. For those of you asking; why didn't you just just chop rush a couple macemen in Heliopolis? Well, the front line was 7 turns away and I didn't have anything there to deal with Monties Longbows. I immediately upgraded two Macemen for defences and eventual city raiding. My first Macemen w/ strength and cover died but he took out Monties Great General Longbowman (AI is so reckless w/ GG ) that was sitting on a mined hill outside my city.

Monty did manage to sneak these units onto my shore:

With only a chariot and a cat protecting he did take the city. Two chariots got it back on the next turn though. I did lose a couple of buildings and probably provided the degenerate some pillage cash. Oh well, more to sue for in the future.

It looks like the extra cash and Pacifism worked, look who showed up to help with Education:

continued on the next post...

 

[Gryman]

Things were rolling right along technologically, only 7 turns remained for Education after the help of Descartes. Liberalism seems to be in the bag unless there are two peaceful tech traders on the other continent. I am a little nervous as Confusionism was founded in 750 bc followed by Taoism in 425 bc, could be Mansa. However, Hinduism was also founded abroad so hopefully there is some religious tension there. Optics is not high on the list of priorities but I would expect them to find us before landing Liberalism.

It was turning into a cold war with Monty before I finally felt confident enough in my invading force. Looks like I may have overestimated the Lad's garrison force:

I suffered minimal losses and this is what remained in the city:

This city will likely be the home of The Forbidden Palace. More Importantly, I had gained access to dye giving me +1 happy from each Theatre in my Empire. Theatres are arguably the best building to an SE Economy second only to the Granary and would eventually be built in every city. +1 happy per 10% culture rate along w/ Colosseum allows +5 happy for each 20% on the slider. Wars can be waged almost indefinetely and my citizens will never know the freedom of Emancipation.

On to the Capital:

Not very impressive Monty, I bet he wishes he could have his GG Longbow back! The city falls and this is left:

With Corn, Fish and several grassland tiles this city will build Oxford University as soon as it is available. I like to have both Oxford and Wall Street in Coastal Cities in order to take advantage of Trade Route Commerce in addition to Specialists when the Sliders are used.

A view of the Continent at this point:

Notice that Monty only his 2 cities remaining, he still would not discuss Capitulation. He still thinks that he is doing fine on his own. Here is a view of his remaining Capital:

I believe there are 3 more units coming from the north along with the spearman on the gold. I would likely raze this city since it would not be able to hold either gem tile due to Shaka's culture. Perhaps it would serve as a useful buffer when war comes with Shaka, the two don't currently have open borders.

I decided to negotiate peace with Monty:

Calandar will obviously be helpful towards my happiness cap once all of the resources become available. I think it is safe to say that Monty is no longer a factor in this game. It is time to move my forces into defensive positions in case of an attack by Ragnar who is +4 diplomatically and cautious at the moment.

Shaka and Winston still seem to have their hands full with each other. Their war has been waging since 25 BC! Funny how War Weariness has no effect on the AI and they can still maintain size 20 cities after an 800 year war. Winston came to me with this demand several years back:

What?! Stop trading with my best buddy? Not a chance Churchill! This earned me another -1 diplomatically with the Chap but I'm sure he'll come around when I join him in the mutual military struggle. Here is a shot of their war front. I love watching them relentlessly pillaging each other to pieces:

Chuchill's defences are getting low and I might have to negotiate peace between them soon. I really don't want Winston to Capitulate! Shaka will negotiate peace for Philosophy and Churchill will negotiate for Bureaucracy.

When the time comes for war with Shaka I will need to do one of two things:
1) Negotiate a war between the two of them or at very least to stop trading with each other. This would be difficult as they are currently friendly with each other.
2) Bribe Ragnar into attacking at very least Monty but preferably Churchill or vice versa. I can not afford to have Ragnar enter the war with Shaka.

State of The Union:

A Look at Tenochtitlan:

I might as well start planning on how to use my Artist now because it never fails! I'll cross my fingers and hope for the best, the scientist is obviously much more useful at this point. I wouldn't complain if the longshot Merchant finds his way through.

Thebes:

There is room for a little growth here in the capital, Bureaucracy might be used here to churn out some units for the next war along with my second GG who was born while finishing off Monty. Again, in the future I would like another scientist here as opposed to an Engineer.

Technology:

I have Paper on everyone and Philosophy on both Shaka and Ragnar. I do still have Civil Service on Churchill. Until the other continent finds me I am assuming that I only have to beat these guys to Liberalism. Am I wrong in thinking this? I would think that the AI would have Optics long before they ever reach a tech like liberalism. Just in case, I am going to research Liberalism to 5 or fewer turns to completion and keep a close eye on when Ragnar and Churchill complete Philosophy, and Education.

Having the Pyramids allows me to focus primarily on the bottom of the Tech Tree. The first thing on my mind right now is Chemistry, I might actually have a chance at grabbing this tech directly. At the current tech pace I am missing Engineering (8 turns), Gunpowder (10 turns) and the 9 turns left in Liberalism. I assume this pace will pick up with growth and my cities coming out of revolt.

Civics:

I am going to have to find a way to afford a civics switch in the future. I would defenitely like to switch into Organized Religion as I have a ton of builds to take care of! I have delayed many builds in all of my cities in order to tech along and take care of Monty. I badly need 3 more courthouses (to get the required 6), Forbidden Palace, Forges, Universities and Oxford. I would also like to adopt Bureaucracy in order to catch up on builds in Thebes as well as produce a few modern units.

Switching into both Organized and Bureaucracy would currently cost 15 extra gold a turn which I'm not sure I can afford. I will have to wait and see how things look when the two cities come out of revolt. I suppose Missionaries should also be a priority with the Jewish Shrine in place. Hopefully I can bribe Shaka into converting and spoil his relations with Ragnar.

And finally, a look at the Power:

I think this is pretty standard to be behind on Immortal, however, this has me a little worried:

I have to assume he is preparing to come after me. I am positioning my forces to defend against a possible Viking attack.

This game is going very well thus far, I hope that the trend will continue. I welcome any comments/criticizms/suggestions before I complete the next round.


The Save: