Your Last Warning - Consume Folic Acid at your own risk.

[Brian Shanahan]

So to be aware how full of bullcrap alternative medicine is, is a most necessary thing - but to oppose the whole of it is not very smart either. Classical medicine should rather be open to promising and different ways of healing which then can be studied in the ways of classical medicine, but which were initiated by alternative medicine.

Until alternative medicine is open to proper testing, it is right and proper to oppose it. For without proper testing we do not know what it is capable of, either good or bad. We cannot allow alternative medicines to be held to a far lower standard than regular medicines, or we will find that we have no medicine at all.

 

[Terxpahseyton]

Well, if it's water soluble (B vitamins for example) then what's not used by your body just ends up being peed out.

I understand this and I don't dispute that generally this is the case. I am not even saying this isn't the case for vitamins.
I just find it hard to believe that the sole trait of being dissolved in warm water makes everything which is a subject to this process automatically harmless. I mean this assumes that our body does interact with the surplus of any number of substances only by getting it out and in no other way. Which would be an awesome quality to have, but to me it seems too awesome. Too simple.
And if this is not the case, isn't it quit a jump to just declare all the vitamins except the four mentioned to be no harm in too high amounts because they dissolve in water? Except there are further studies/reasons backing it up in the case of vitamins of course.

Until alternative medicine is open to proper testing

How exactly is it closed?

 

[Brian Shanahan]

How exactly is it closed?

It is very rare for a practitioner of or council regulating alternative "medicine" to allow proper testing with their consent. And when it is done anyway they try to refute it by the popular method of throwing temper tantrums and name calling while refusing to even acknowledge the evidence against.

The only alternative medicine that is even remotely amenable to proper testing is acupuncture and there is still a lot of controversy over the studies.

 

[Terxpahseyton]

If one is not open to proper testing, I am totally with you in opposing him/her. But why the need to just oppose anybody working outside of classic medicine? It is my understanding that there are in deed people who neither are trying to fool people nor who are not able top grasp the necessity of proper testing but who engage in alternative medicine.

 

[Brian Shanahan]

If one is not open to proper testing, I am totally with you in opposing him/her. But why the need to just oppose anybody working outside of classic medicine? It is my understanding that there are in deed people who neither are trying to fool pool nor who are not able top grasp the necessity of proper testing.

Because they are not tested properly, and aside from a very small number oppose testing, a) because they are deluding themselves, or b) know they are snake-oil salesmen and don't want it found out.

Just because a person cannot grasp the concept of trials doesn't give them a free ride on them. It would be like asking someone who cannot comprehend logic gates to programme a new operating system for your computer if they were, a complete disaster.

 

[Terxpahseyton]

Because they are not tested properly,

Look I am not advocating that medicine which is not tested is'nt too bad. I am advocating that it can be fruitful to have people look for ways to heal outside of the branch of classic medicine - which later has to be properly tested, absolutel correct.

You are basically replying: No, about everybody associated with alternative medicine is a dummy or a thieve so there is no worth in being concerned with them. Now as I see it your argument stands and falls with how you got this impression. So how did you? Because if this is just a stereo-type you have grown to like, it is not much of an argument.

 

[Narz]

Look I am not advocating that medicine which is not tested is'nt too bad. I am advocating that it can be fruitful to have people look for ways to heal outside of the branch of classic medicine - which later has to be properly tested, absolutel correct.

You are basically replying: No, about everybody associated with alternative medicine is a dummy or a thieve so there is no worth in being concerned with them. Now as I see it your argument stands and falls with how you got this impression. So how did you? Because if this is just a stereo-type you have grown to like, it is not much of an argument.

You are speaking well SiLL but I have given up on the thread because the people engaged in debate are so stubborn. They treat science as a closed book, "this is how it is & everything else is automatically a scam" (ironically this attitude is antithetical to the true spirit of science) and view those who dominate "conventional" medicine as pure, noble, uncorrupted, objective vessels & anyone with new ideas they want to test as the same as charlatans (notion Masada's venomous emotionally charged language). It's a hopeless fight.

 

[Neonanocyborgasm]

What makes you so sure those are the only one? Yes, you said those are the only ones not water soluble - so I take it A, D, E, and K have a common difference in their chemical structure compared to the other vitamins or something of the sort?

I must have some secret knowledge about vitamins that the rest of the world lacks.

 

[Joecoolyo]

You are speaking well SiLL but I have given up on the thread because the people engaged in debate are so stubborn. They treat science as a closed book, "this is how it is & everything else is automatically a scam" (ironically this attitude is antithetical to the true spirit of science) and view those who dominate "conventional" medicine as pure, noble, uncorrupted, objective vessels & anyone with new ideas they want to test as the same as charlatans (notion Masada's venomous emotionally charged language). It's a hopeless fight.

Without scientific testing (or FDA approval), how do you know that the alternative medicine is what it says it is? Or better yet, do what it says it does?

You don't, I can take a bottle of water, slap a label on it, and call it an "Ancient Native America cure" for love handles or something. Then sell it under the guise of alternative medicine, so I don't need it tested or peer reviewed as to find out if it actually, you know, works.

 

[Narz]

It's not like you or I or even Nanocyborgasm (who IIRC is a doctor) could easily get the FDA to even consider any discovery we may have made. I follow the advice of buyer beware whether a product is tested or not. I've gotten burned by a lot of FDA-approved drugs so I am careful.

People have this misconception that anything/everything approved by the FDA or USDA or govt. is general is automatically superior/safe/foolproof/based on sound science. This is not the case. Take the Food Pyramid for example, not based on any science. Even if drugs are throughly tested there simply isn't time for long term testing & the long-term effects of certain drugs may not be known for a decade or more after they are approved Rtalin for example.

If no one's willing to test your product claim what can you do? You can't force the FDA to validate or refute your claim.

 

[Miles Teg]

I'm sorry if you have trouble keeping up with the way science works Narz.

Unfortunately, "anything that can't stand up to rigorous testing isn't trustworthy" really is the basic assumption behind the scientific method. I'll make an attempt to notify the scientific community that this standard has frustrated some people on internet message boards.

I'm also sorry that we can't all be special people like you, who can look beyond little details like facts and numbers to see the big picture of how the big pharmaceutical companies are going to kill us all. I think I was just born to be one of the mindless sheeple.

 

[Narz]

I'm sorry if you have trouble keeping up with the way science works Narz.

I don't.

Unfortunately, "anything that can't stand up to rigorous testing isn't trustworthy" really is the basic assumption behind the scientific method.

I'm not sure you understand the use of quotes. For example I could use them to encase the sentence "I, Miles Teg, am intellectually dishonest" and though they would contain a true sentence I wouldn't actually be using them correctly seeing as you haven't admitted as such.

I'll make an attempt to notify the scientific community that this standard has frustrated some people on internet message boards.

I'm also sorry that we can't all be special people like you, who can look beyond little details like facts and numbers to see the big picture of how the big pharmaceutical companies are going to kill us all. I think I was just born to be one of the mindless sheeple.

Corruption exists = OMG we're all going to die?

Your major in trolling is impressive (sad but kind of marveling) however perhaps you should have gone for a minor in logic. I think however, you should seek a physician's help rather than trying to self-medicate by such means.

 

[Miles Teg]

I don't.

That statement is contradicted by the fact that you seem to disagree with the my statement that skepticism is the bedrock of science. Science, especially medical science, depends on heavily controlled environments, good documentation, good experimental controls, and reproducibility. If a claimed cure-all can't provide those, it should be given short-shrift, and nothing else.

Corruption exists = OMG we're all going to die?

It does for you apparently. Or rather, we agree that there is corruption in the system, but I think it's manageable and that most of the problems are known, while you seem to think that corruption in the system is so rampant that it's under every rock and behind every shadow. At least, that's the only reason I can imagine for why you seem to favor no system at all over a slightly flawed one.

 

[Narz]

That statement is contradicted by the fact that you seem to disagree with the my statement that skepticism is the bedrock of science. Science, especially medical science, depends on heavily controlled environments, good documentation, good experimental controls, and reproducibility. If a claimed cure-all can't provide those, it should be given short-shrift, and nothing else.

Who is talking about claimed-cure-alls? Mostly you.

I'm all for rigorous testing. Far more rigorous than what's currently being done.

Spin away.

It does for you apparently.

No, it doesn't.

Or rather, we agree that there is corruption in the system, but I think it's manageable and that most of the problems are known

You have a lot of faith.

while you seem to think that corruption in the system is so rampant that it's under every rock and behind every shadow.

Not quite but with billions of dollars in potential profits per year it's not shocking that corners are cut.

At least, that's the only reason I can imagine for why you seem to favor no system at all over a slightly flawed one.

You seem to imagine alot of things. I wonder why I even show up as you seem to have more fun arguing with "me" without me.

 

[Miles Teg]

Who is talking about claimed-cure-alls? Mostly you.

I'm not precisely sure what you're talking about. Most of my posts in this thread have been about why X probably isn't going to kill us, but I presume most people are able to understand that I'm rebutting the claim that X is dangerous, not claiming that it's a cure-all.

I'm all for rigorous testing. Far more rigorous than what's currently being done.

Unless of course the cure isn't associated with a major pharmaceutical company, in which case you call me out for demanding basic proof that a drug does anything. Funny double standard that.

Anyways, I think we're focusing too much on each other as opposed to the facts. Got any pseudoscience you'd like me to take a look at?

 

[amadeus]

Who is talking about claimed-cure-alls?

Well, one such example is your post about infrared saunas to "detoxify" (part of what is euphemistically called "alternative medicine") your body. Well, there's no evidence to prove that "detoxifying" does any good for your body and that these saunas aren't just anything more than a thousand-dollar con.

 

[useless]

typical conspiracy nutty stuff, people need to be educated more so they can stop spouting lies.........

 

[amadeus]

The worst part is when people believe the rationalizations for why there is no scientific evidence to support the pseudoscience: the big drug companies are keeping it down because they don't want their profits cut in to (not dissimilar to people's beliefs about the electric car) or because a wizard cast a spell on people or something stupid like that.

 

[Narz]

Unless of course the cure isn't associated with a major pharmaceutical company, in which case you call me out for demanding basic proof that a drug does anything. Funny double standard that.

I'm sorry, I haven't advocated any cure alls have I?

Anyways, I think we're focusing too much on each other as opposed to the facts. Got any pseudoscience you'd like me to take a look at?

But you're more interesting that folate Miles, why don't you tell me about your mother?

Well, there's no evidence to prove that "detoxifying" does any good for your body

Sweating is good for your body.

Crying is good for your body too, did you know you release different chemicals when you cry emotionally than when you say, cut an onion? Perhaps you & Miles should get together & share & try to find out what this is all really about.

The worst part is when people believe the rationalizations for why there is no scientific evidence to support the pseudoscience: the big drug companies are keeping it down because they don't want their profits to cut in to (not dissimilar to people's beliefs about the electric car) or because a wizard cast a spell on people or something stupid like that.

I believe the big drug companies deliberately try it easy for other organizations to market competing products. I believe lobbyists exist to serve the public good. I believe no one in a position of power has ever compromised his or her values one iota. I believe that children are our future. I believe in you amadeus!

 

[useless]

Or "god did it" ( god does not exist)