Rashiminos
Fool Prophet
.. and since woo is a foreign language, I don't understand it (well.. sometimes at least
).
Your Last Warning - Consume Folic Acid at your own risk.
- Thread starter Kruelgor
- Start date
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Rashiminos
Fool Prophet
I must have forgotten the quote marks in my last post.
Narz
keeping it real
It bothers me a bit but that's advertising for you. If I purchase one it's still like a year away & I don't know what kind I'll get. I figured maybe the thread starter might buy one thru my link which would net be about $70 (I'm an evil capitalist too
).I don't believe that in the least. Remember, most new industrial chemicals aren't even regulated. Bisphenol A wasn't really a big deal until recent times when a bunch of studies revealing it wasn't all that safe but it's still in lots of things in the US. Really stuff should be thoroughly tested pre-release but that would be incredibly time consuming & "slow progress".
"That particular standard" is laregly arbitrary & varies widely between countries (the US being one of the most lax).
Taking advantage of people's fears (especially old, rich, sickly people with money) is, I'm sure a huge industry. Charlatans exist in just about every field. I got my blood tests done at the now out of business Atkins center in NYC, they did not do chelation therapy though they did recommend a dentist who could replace my mercury fillings.
By the way Quackwatch is a terrible site, about as fair & balanced as Fox News with as much of an agenda.
http://www.raysahelian.com/quackwatch.html
If you read your link it only measures the time between 1975-1980 and 1998. Emissions standards are a lot higher now than in the late-70's/early 80's though many new untested chemicals have been released. So even if sperm counts may be stablizing I don't think there's question they've been falling & infertility has been increasing worldwide.
I prefer to err on the side of caution when it comes to my health.
Miles Teg
Nuclear Powered Mentat
I'm starting to think we live in parallel universes. In my universe, Stephen Barrett is an internationally respected doctor, with an "agenda" against sloppy medicine. Quackwatch is marked by a strict adherence to factual data over personal bias or sloppy personal experiences, and has been cited as a reliable source by most major science and medicine publications, in addition to various government agencies.
Ray Sahelian, by contrast, is an obscure crackpot nutritionist who peddles a nasty little steroid that should have been banned years ago, with an incomprehensible article that could be summarized as "my anecdotes are more important than scientific research, and Stephen Barrett is a meanie head."
What's life like in your universe?
Amen. And the first step to that is not sticking ridiculously untested "natural" remedies into your body.
This article is far too interesting to be trapped in such an unworthy thread.
FWIW, I could see how 'natural folate' could be much healthier than 'synthetic folate'. We've seen the same with B-carotene, anti-oxidants, the other B-vitamins, etc. Getting your RDI of 'natural folate' requires a quantity of vegetables that people don't normally eat. There's likely a lot of synergies available. And, individual vitamins are notorious for being tough to quantify. They require long studies with a lot of people.
Increased cancer is well worth the reduction of spina bifida, too. We no longer live in a world where sick babies die, and I'd rather not have a decent proportion of the population have that disease for their 70+ years. Cancer is a problem, yes, but it's a disease that can be fought.
Finally, on the "corruption front". I can see why we'd worry about the aspartame lobby given that it used to be owned by Monsanto. They're big and sociopathic enough that we should watch them. I don't know where the big money is, in the 'folate lobby'. AFAIK, the corps are being forced to include folate
Increased cancer is well worth the reduction of spina bifida, too. We no longer live in a world where sick babies die, and I'd rather not have a decent proportion of the population have that disease for their 70+ years. Cancer is a problem, yes, but it's a disease that can be fought.
Finally, on the "corruption front". I can see why we'd worry about the aspartame lobby given that it used to be owned by Monsanto. They're big and sociopathic enough that we should watch them. I don't know where the big money is, in the 'folate lobby'. AFAIK, the corps are being forced to include folate
Neonanocyborgasm
Deity
- Joined
- Apr 21, 2004
- Messages
- 4,695
There has never been such evidence. All the "studies" that you periodically hear about vitamins are full of flaws and data mining expeditions, reported in the news for excitability. Their claims periodically go in and out of fashion. Recently, for example, Vitamin E was prescribed for its supposed benefits in heart disease. These benefits were later debunked. And I will say that there will never be any evidence that vitamin supplementation can treat anything but vitamin deficiency, and its complications, because vitamins are simply essential nutrients. They are found widespread in food.
The only vitamins that have a risk of overdose are the lipid soluble vitamins A, D, E, and K. All others are water soluble and any consumption beyond the necessary will simply be emptied in urine.
The reason I mention this is because those publications have a peer review, and will screen every submission for veracity. It doesn't guarantee that biased papers will not be published, but it at least offers some measure of protection against it. Those "journals" cited in the OP are just propaganda rags. They may as well be supermarket tabloids.
Narz
keeping it real
Crackpot, nasty, should have been banned?
You're just being a troll. What steroid are you talking about?
In Barrett's universe anything not patented by a multi-billion dollar pharmacutical corporation is automatically dangerous, any evidence to the contrary is irreverent & any drug or surgical alternative is automatically better.
Barrett is a selective troll. He is a tool for big pharm & thus gets accolades from big pharm profiteers. He cherry picks all anti-anything-mainstream data on anything from vitamin pills to herbs to massages dismissing any positive studies as irrelevant but on Vioxx, Ritalin, etc. the guy is mum.
"Barrett says he does not criticize conventional medicine because that would be 'way outside [his] scope.'"
Yes, his scope is narrow & bias like his little mind.
I don't take any ridiculously untested remedies into my body.
However, I have taken plenty of "tested" "approved" substances in my life which have caused me a lot of harm. Ritalin for example causes brain damage in rats & increases susceptibility to depression later in life (which is convenient for the drug industry). I've had mania induced by drugs & sexual problems. I've eaten quite a bit of high fructose corn syrup, partially hydrogenated oil, artificial colors & flavors which are approved for consumption & thereby must be healthy, right?
So I'll trust my life experience of trusting the establishment & it's side effects over some a$$hole with an agenda online. That doesn't mean I'm going to trust every charlatan who tries to sell me a "Native American spiritual healing bracelet", that's simply a strawman.
I'm happy to say I've been drug free since 2002 (except when I had a bike accident in '06 & sprained both arms I took a pain drug for one day).
I take DHA (long-chain omega-3), a multi vitamin and Ashwagandha these days. Quacky have any problems with those?
Oh, also, a little while ago I had a urinary tract infection which I successfully treated with D-Mannose which has obvious benefits over antibiotics (cost being a main one).
It has it's ups & downs but I wouldn't switch places with anyone else & at the end of my life I'll take responsibility for it & not be shocked & depressed that I did "everything right" and am still unhappy/sick/let down/whatever. How about yours? Or do you even have your own universe, or do you just read the mainstream media & think what you're supposed to think @ all times (I imagine this would make it easier in the short-term but in the long-term probably not so much).
Moderator Action: Trolling.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889
Narz
keeping it real
Miles Teg
Nuclear Powered Mentat
Sahelian makes most of his money hocking DHEA, an unregulated steroid hormone he advertises as a natural Viagra (but better), a cure for baldness, anti-carcinogen, memory booster, and so on. It looks like it mostly sells on the Viagra bit. Mind you, the research suggests it doesn't do much beside increasing the risk factor for heart palpitations, but meh.
It's not that it's automatically dangerous, it's that alternative medicine is by definition unregulated. It's really no better than the patent medicines of the 19th century.
The guy has a specialty, what's wrong with that? There are scores of doctors watchdogging pharmaceutical companies, and ten times as many wannabees doing the same. Most doctors understand that alternative medicine is more or less a scam, but they have other specialties. Barrett seems to have his hands full just keeping up with scams in alternative medicine, and he does well at it.
Ritalin is a blunt instrument. It has a lot of problems, but study after study (and soppy personal stories, if you prefer those) show that it really does help people suffering from. Hopefully it can be phased out, but we haven't come across anything better yet.
The thing is, that with man with an agenda seems to be one of a handful of people talking about alternative medicine that aren't trying to sell it to you. Alternative medicine is just a label for medicine that either hasn't been proven to work or has been proven not to work. It's sold using loopholes and blind spots in FDA policies. You know the state of the industry is bad when the honest merchants are the ones who don't put the legally required warnings that nothing they say should be taken seriously in the fine print.
Not much to talk about there. DHA has some limited (often overblown) benefits, while multi-vitamins and Indian ginseng have never been proven to do anything of consequence in people with a decent diet (which I presume you have).
Honestly, do you even get points for being edgy and alternative when every other bloke on the street thinks that science is optional in good medicine and that their dentist's brother's medical anecdotes are the real secret?
I don't really care about being "mainstream". I do care about credentials and intellectual rigor. I've never seen that from anyone peddling alternative medicine, or "science is going to kill us all" baloney.
That article is a kneeslapper all right, just not for the reasons you seem to think.Looks like Barrett is a quack himself.
Addressing the main points of the article:
Barrett practiced psychiatry for 30 years, beginning in the 1960s, when Medical Board certification was optional. Board certification is mandatory for new doctors now, but Barrett was one of thousands of people grandfathered in.
Finallly, no evidence has ever been produced to suggest that Barrett is somehow in the pocket of "Big Pharm", or whatever the cool kids call it these days. If you want to make accusations, back them up.
Narz
keeping it real
Meh, hardly worthy of calling him a quack. According to wiki it has some beneficial effects. No more dangerous than using melatonin probably.
That really depends completely on what you're talking about. Lumping everything unregulated together in one basket serves no one. Though "unregulated" is a good word to use in fear-mongering.
That statement doesn't really mean anything.
Study after study, eh?
Exercise maybe? Attention from parents? Better teachers? Dietary changes? Nothing at all? Ritalin is some pretty bad stuff.
And how much money does it take to get a drug regulated? Not being an official drug doesn't mean something hasn't had research done on it.
Not true. Vitamin-C for one has a lot of benefits.
lol, edgy. Don't know how to even respond to that.
Again, don't know how to respond to that. "science is going to kill us all"? What?
I didn't say they were paying him. The best tools are the ones you don't have to pay.
Miles Teg
Nuclear Powered Mentat
Meh. Never trust anyone whose site offers more than five different sexual stimulants on the main page.
Anyways, he also hocks some ridiculous herbs he claims prevent/cure HIV, and acai berry. And he's "neutral" on the issue of whether vaccines cause autism or not, which would be enough to label him crazy on it's own.
Did I say something untrue? Is there some objective board that regulates alternative medicine? If not, alternative medicine is by definition "unregulated". That's not an innately scary word. Any negative meanings you attach to it are just the sound of your common sense screaming.
There's research and there's research. Good research is double blind, uses large sample sizes, waits for long periods of time, and is heavily documented. It's an expensive processes, and not one that most people can afford. That's why drug companies do most of the drug research, not some conspiracy to keep the little guy out.
That's an incredibly vague phrase. We need to clarify it. If you're saying that Vitamin C is good for you, and a deficiency is harmful, then you're absolutely right. Scurvy is bad, m'kay? If you're claiming that Vitamin C levels in essence of what you get from a balanced diet are beneficial, there's no good evidence for that. That's mostly because Vitamin-C is water-soluable, as Nanocyborgasm was referring to up-thread. Excess Vitamin C literally goes right through you.
You did however quote a really, really bad article claiming that he was. You seemed to like that piece before I pointed out how dishonest it was.
Terxpahseyton
Nobody
- Joined
- Sep 9, 2006
- Messages
- 10,759
What makes you so sure those are the only one? Yes, you said those are the only ones not water soluble - so I take it A, D, E, and K have a common difference in their chemical structure compared to the other vitamins or something of the sort?
He's probably so sure because he's a doctor.
It shouldn't be too hard a test. Get a substance, try and dissolve it in water. Does it dissolve? No? Did you raise the water to body tempature? Yes? Then it's not water soluble.
amadeus
Bishop of Bio-Dome
I'm just relieved we won't have to listen to any more warnings after this thread is done.
Terxpahseyton
Nobody
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On the alternative-medicine-debate:
That alternative medicine is unregulated is its strength and weakness. Weakness because many many many either stupid or greedy or stupid and greedy people waste money, time and trust of their costumers.
Strength because it is open to basically everything. And that enables to explore ways of healing beyond the boundaries of classical medicine. By "beyond the boundaries" I don't mean beyond the laws of nature. I mean beyond what classical medicine is able to amount to in its own system of progression.
For an example just look at acupuncture. Without alternative medicine classical medicine still wouldn't know the first thing about it.
So to be aware how full of bullcrap alternative medicine is, is a most necessary thing - but to oppose the whole of it is not very smart either. Classical medicine should rather be open to promising and different ways of healing which then can be studied in the ways of classical medicine, but which were initiated by alternative medicine.
That alternative medicine is unregulated is its strength and weakness. Weakness because many many many either stupid or greedy or stupid and greedy people waste money, time and trust of their costumers.
Strength because it is open to basically everything. And that enables to explore ways of healing beyond the boundaries of classical medicine. By "beyond the boundaries" I don't mean beyond the laws of nature. I mean beyond what classical medicine is able to amount to in its own system of progression.
For an example just look at acupuncture. Without alternative medicine classical medicine still wouldn't know the first thing about it.
So to be aware how full of bullcrap alternative medicine is, is a most necessary thing - but to oppose the whole of it is not very smart either. Classical medicine should rather be open to promising and different ways of healing which then can be studied in the ways of classical medicine, but which were initiated by alternative medicine.
Terxpahseyton
Nobody
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I don't see how one gets from there to "It is all safe".
Well, if it's water soluble (B vitamins for example) then what's not used by your body just ends up being peed out.
I'm not sure if Red Bull and energy drinks like that are popular in Europe, but check the nutrition label. They're all like 6667% of some B vitamins.
