Zero day DLC = disrespecting the customer

[snowlyon]

The issue I see and am wondering about, given the "deluxe" version has a very tangible affect on the game (introduction of a completely new civilization) and not just fluff (like most deluxe versions). This in turn means that the community will be operating on two different games for all intents and purposes….the exception being if the two are compatible, meaning that the 'base' and 'deluxe' versions can play one another. Unfortunately, I have a sneaking suspicion that this will not be the case…thus the community will be fractured at the outset of the game itself. This is bad for the modding community and the lover of mods for various reasons.

Even now we can see this fracturing even before the game has even been released. If perhaps they had included them in the initial game but they were 'unplayable'…then the deluxe version unlocked them for player use? Although I can just imagine all the moaning and groaning that would have occurred if that was the case…

Be interesting how it all rolls out to be sure and how the community reacts once it all is actually available for use.~

 

[Shurdus]

The issue I see and am wondering about, given the "deluxe" version has a very tangible affect on the game (introduction of a completely new civilization) and not just fluff (like most deluxe versions). This in turn means that the community will be operating on two different games for all intents and purposes….the exception being if the two are compatible, meaning that the 'base' and 'deluxe' versions can play one another. Unfortunately, I have a sneaking suspicion that this will not be the case…thus the community will be fractured at the outset of the game itself. This is bad for the modding community and the lover of mods for various reasons.

Even now we can see this fracturing even before the game has even been released. If perhaps they had included them in the initial game but they were 'unplayable'…then the deluxe version unlocked them for player use? Although I can just imagine all the moaning and groaning that would have occurred if that was the case…

Be interesting how it all rolls out to be sure and how the community reacts once it all is actually available for use.~

You assume the community will be fractured over the assumptions. Pardon me if I do not share your pessimism there.

And there is nothing bad with the community arguing about things like these. Polite arguing has gone on since forever on civfanatics for as long as I can remember. I would hardly call this any more of a fracture than back then when civ4 came out and people were not switching from III. And if worst comes to worst there will be a whole new community on steamworks to join.

 

[snowlyon]

You assume the community will be fractured over the assumptions. Pardon me if I do not share your pessimism there.

Not pessimism it is basically fact. I said they would be possbily working off of two different games from outset. The exception being that the base version and deluxe version are compatible. It is, imo, a legitimate concern, that obviously you don't share…and that's cool. Yet, given the former is more likely than the later means the community will be fractured to the extent that not everyone will be operating off the same game from the outset.

My view is more pragmatic and realistic in this regard…that's you disagree is fine. Time will tell with what happens and how everything turns out…as I had mentioned.

And there is nothing bad with the community arguing about things like these. Polite arguing has gone on since forever on civfanatics for as long as I can remember. I would hardly call this any more of a fracture than back then when civ4 came out and people were not switching from III. And if worst comes to worst there will be a whole new community on steamworks to join.

The major difference is that civ5 is effectively coming out from the get go with two different versions. So the civ4 comparison, while can be used…isn’t really the greatest for this particular case.~

 

[tom2050]

Good luck buying a used steamworks game.

OMG! Chalks has gone to the Good Side of the Force!

Firaxis and Steam are personally making life difficult for legitimate users to STOP PC RE-SALE; not to stop hackers.

If Chalks agrees that you are screwed trying to run a Steamworks game that you just BOUGHT used... he is right! You will have to dish over MORE MONEY to Firaxis anyways to play it since it is forced Steamware.

Plus, the fact that many people know this, will be reluctant to sell a game on eBay for feeling they are 'ripping the buyer a new one'. (because people generally care, whereas Firaxis, 2K, and Valve would spit on your grave for money).

STEAMWARE is the new the name... Malwarebytes should include Steamware as one of the things it looks for to remove.

Steamware adds some nice features to hide it's true intent... to make it so buying a game used puts you out of more money later, by having to pay Firaxis AGAIN for a game already bought from them. In essence, they will get paid multiple times for a single copy of a game that people trade or get used.

I bet Liz 2K Propaganda Relations doesn't give an answer to this (which has been mentioned multiple times already).

 

[Chalks]

OMG! Chalks has gone to the Good Side of the Force!

Firaxis and Steam are personally making life difficult for legitimate users to STOP PC RE-SALE; not to stop hackers.

If Chalks agrees that you are screwed trying to run a Steamworks game that you just BOUGHT used... he is right! You will have to dish over MORE MONEY to Firaxis anyways to play it since it is forced Steamware.

STEAMWARE is the new the name... Malwarebytes should include Steamware as one of the things it looks for to remove.

Steamware adds some nice features to hide it's true intent... to make it so buying a game used puts you out of more money later, by having to pay Firaxis AGAIN for a game already bought from them. In essence, they will get paid multiple times for a single copy of a game that people trade or get used.

Erm... well, that was a interesting read. Are you feeling OK? This is unhinged even for you.

You're continually making up some ridiculous steam conspiracy and you don't understand what the word "malware" means.

Oh, and I'm sure I'll be shedding tears about people having to give money to Firaxis to play their games. This certainly is a horrific turn of events.

Moderator Action: Flaming - warned
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

 

[tom2050]

Erm... well, that was a interesting read. Are you feeling OK? This is unhinged even for you.

You're continually making up some ridiculous steam conspiracy and you don't understand what the word "malware" means.

Oh, and I'm sure I'll be shedding tears about people having to give money to Firaxis to play their games. This certainly is a horrific turn of events.

No I am not making it up. You can't trade your Steam Account for Civ 5, they already stated it somewhere (it may have been you who mentioned it).

Therefore, if you buy Civ 5 used, you must make an account on Steamworks, and in order to play you have to purchase it for $10 (or some amount, not sure what it is).

This is nothing new... just elaborating on your statement. Impulse did the same type of things to stop re-sale of their games.

 

[snowlyon]

Steamware adds some nice features to hide it's true intent... to make it so buying a game used puts you out of more money later, by having to pay Firaxis AGAIN for a game already bought from them. In essence, they will get paid multiple times for a single copy of a game that people trade or get used.

errmm...it's true intenet? not sure what that would be. in fact, I would think the above is taking things a lil bit to the extreme. although, I do agree that the overall intent is to kill the second hand market, I seriously doubt that there is any malicious intent in the Steam program itself...~

/edit durrr...reread and the lil light turned on. the "true intent" being that they are killing the second hand market but hiding this under all the bells and whistles that they provide. gotcha. actually agree with this then...~

 

[Chalks]

errmm...it's true intenet? not sure what that would be. in fact, I would think the above is taking things a lil bit to the extreme. although, I do agree that the overall intent is to kill the second hand market, I seriously doubt that there is any malicious intent in the Steam program itself...~

The intent is to prevent piracy - you don't have a huge push for such activation in console markets where the second hand trade is booming with entire high street chains based on resale.

It does not make sense to claim that activation DRM is used with the intent of killing the second hand market when the second hand market is of small consequence for PCs when compared to consoles. The fact of the matter is that PC resale has been basically non existent and unsupported by big game resale outlets due to the ease at which PC games can be pirated (install, CD crack, exchange)

The resale aspect is just an unintended casualty. One that the games industry is happy to have, probably, but that is far from intent.

 

[tom2050]

Companies know (and have said) that those who pirate games were not going to buy them in the first place. The goal is against 2nd hand market resale. Read it yourself. Even CEO Brad Wardell has stated this.

EA even imposed a used-games tax (recently I believe), or is trying to.

http://arstechnica.com/gaming/news/2008/09/ea-skirts-first-sale-doctrine-with-limits-on-resale-of-spore.ars
http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20081205/1533083035.shtml
http://www.bitmob.com/articles/extreme-drm-publishers-trying-to-kill-pc-gaming
http://www.cheapassgamer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=200474
http://forums.reghardware.co.uk/forum/1/2010/05/11/ea_sports_used_games_tax/

I could literally leave links all day about this, but I have better things to do. Chalks = wrong.

 

[Chalks]

Companies know (and have said) that those who pirate games were not going to buy them in the first place. The goal is against 2nd hand market resale. Read it yourself. Even CEO Brad Wardell has stated this.

EA even imposed a used-games tax (recently I believe), or is trying to.

http://arstechnica.com/gaming/news/2008/09/ea-skirts-first-sale-doctrine-with-limits-on-resale-of-spore.ars
http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20081205/1533083035.shtml
http://www.bitmob.com/articles/extreme-drm-publishers-trying-to-kill-pc-gaming
http://www.cheapassgamer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=200474
http://forums.reghardware.co.uk/forum/1/2010/05/11/ea_sports_used_games_tax/

I could literally leave links all day about this, but I have better things to do. Chalks = wrong.

Everyone who pirates games is never going to buy any games? EVERYONE? Really? Cool.

I own a bunch of games.

I've also pirated a bunch of games.

Oh crap, your argument fails.

Does DRM make me buy games I would have pirated? Yes. Does Steam make me buy far more games than I would have pirated? Yes.

Oh no! It fails further and further.

 

[tom2050]

I think the argument from game companies CEO's and people in those relevant positions will taken over your opinion.

 

[Chalks]

I think the argument from game companies CEO's and people in those relevant positions will taken over your opinion.

My opinion? I think you need to learn what words mean. My previous statements were facts, not opinions.

 

[2K Elizabeth]

OMG! Chalks has gone to the Good Side of the Force!

Firaxis and Steam are personally making life difficult for legitimate users to STOP PC RE-SALE; not to stop hackers.

If Chalks agrees that you are screwed trying to run a Steamworks game that you just BOUGHT used... he is right! You will have to dish over MORE MONEY to Firaxis anyways to play it since it is forced Steamware.

Plus, the fact that many people know this, will be reluctant to sell a game on eBay for feeling they are 'ripping the buyer a new one'. (because people generally care, whereas Firaxis, 2K, and Valve would spit on your grave for money).

STEAMWARE is the new the name... Malwarebytes should include Steamware as one of the things it looks for to remove.

Steamware adds some nice features to hide it's true intent... to make it so buying a game used puts you out of more money later, by having to pay Firaxis AGAIN for a game already bought from them. In essence, they will get paid multiple times for a single copy of a game that people trade or get used.

I bet Liz 2K Propaganda Relations doesn't give an answer to this (which has been mentioned multiple times already).

Tom - I'm not sure exactly what question you are asking, but yes, when a game is associated with a Valve account it stays with that Valve account. We recently just made all the Steam PC games available on Steam for Mac when Steam came out for Mac, but if you have two Valve accounts, you'll need two copies of the game.

I think that's what you're asking. There wasn't a defined question, so I might be off.

Also, your title for me made me laugh.

 

[tom2050]

When they say that those who pirate games were not going to buy them anyways (which comes from a CEO); this is more of a truth than what you say.

Companies know this, and companies have said this. They also know that hackers cannot be stopped with DRM; that is why you see DRM moving from CD-Keys over to internet required methods.

I will still believe a company CEO statement from a consumer-driven company (so they say) such as Stardock anyday over a DRM-driven consumer such as yourself.

 

[Balerune]

I have only one game on steam that I seldom play. I went to play it recently and the short of it is my account was hacked. So it takes me a week of nonsense with them to get this corrected. I now have the same game on disk. I will use the disk. In spite of what anyone else has said if you haven't tried to play a game offline for a while and there is a steam update steam connects to their site to update.{The further upshot is the game is heavily modded and the mods are 5 times larger than the game.}

I have no use for steam and I don't really care what their (and Firaxis) motives are. The whole system is cumbersome and as my case illustrates what I bought can be stolen. (Complex password protection I reserve for important things like ........ that involve rl transactions not for the playing of games. That I have to worry about stuff like this for a computer game is ridiculous. If I was paying a monthly fee that would be a different but this is just a one time purchase.)

As the line from A Fish Called Wanda goes "you can stick it up your bottom" as regards this steam business.

 

[StittsvilleJame]

I'm honestly a little confused by the relationship between 2K, Steam, Valve, and Firaxis.
Does Valve own 2K? Is Firaxis working for Valve? Is Sid Meier somehow behind all of these things? And whatever happened to microprose? Is it all EA's fault, or a joint tactic by Bill Gates, Steve Jobs, and Google to finally crush Yahoo?

 

[civ_king]

Civ is so much fun resale is pointless

 

[2K Elizabeth]

I'm honestly a little confused by the relationship between 2K, Steam, Valve, and Firaxis.
Does Valve own 2K? Is Firaxis working for Valve? Is Sid Meier somehow behind all of these things? And whatever happened to microprose? Is it all EA's fault, or a joint tactic by Bill Gates, Steve Jobs, and Google to finally crush Yahoo?

2K Games publishes Firaxis' titles. They are our developer, and are part of the 2K Games family.

Valve is completely separate, and we are using their platform, Steamworks, in Civilization V. They are not owned by us, nor do we own them.

Hope that helps.

 

[Sterf]

Civ is so much fun resale is pointless

Quoting this to infinity...and beyond.

I have only one game on steam that I seldom play. I went to play it recently and the short of it is my account was hacked. So it takes me a week of nonsense with them to get this corrected. I now have the same game on disk. I will use the disk. In spite of what anyone else has said if you haven't tried to play a game offline for a while and there is a steam update steam connects to their site to update.{The further upshot is the game is heavily modded and the mods are 5 times larger than the game.}

I have no use for steam and I don't really care what their (and Firaxis) motives are. The whole system is cumbersome and as my case illustrates what I bought can be stolen. (Complex password protection I reserve for important things like ........ that involve rl transactions not for the playing of games. That I have to worry about stuff like this for a computer game is ridiculous. If I was paying a monthly fee that would be a different but this is just a one time purchase.)

As the line from A Fish Called Wanda goes "you can stick it up your bottom" as regards this steam business.

You should've linked your email account with steam, so that way they can only get your account if they also hacked your email account which would be a pretty unlucky and unlikely turn of events. And of course have seperate passwords for both, but that is common sense. If you don't care about what you call 'complex password protection', you can't really blame anyone but yourself.

 

[Olaf_The_Great]

When they say that those who pirate games were not going to buy them anyways (which comes from a CEO); this is more of a truth than what you say.

Companies know this, and companies have said this. They also know that hackers cannot be stopped with DRM; that is why you see DRM moving from CD-Keys over to internet required methods.

I will still believe a company CEO statement from a consumer-driven company (so they say) such as Stardock anyday over a DRM-driven consumer such as yourself.

Because corporations know all. Okay dude, if they know the people on file-sharing websites are going to get past the DRM anyway, then why alienate the legitimate users with even more annoying copyright protection?