Commander Bello
Say No 2 Net Validations
After the experiences of the last three months, I am not convinced that "open communication" is within 2K's interest.
Zero day DLC = disrespecting the customer
- Thread starter phungus420
- Start date
wolfigor
Emperor
Hello, wolfigor. At this point, all is speculation. Instead of trying to read their minds, we shall have to wait and see.
Yes reading their minds is a bit futile.
However it's a kind "yesterday weather" type of forecast: looking at what other companies do, and what are the license agreements for mods with other titles controlled by 2K.
GoGerbilGo!
Chieftain
- Joined
- Jul 18, 2010
- Messages
- 56
"It is from their critics, not their fanbois, that companies learn the lesson of making good software...." Aristophanes Bello
"Give a man criticism and you can improve his software for a day. Teach a man how to be a critic and he can improve your software for a lifetime...." Old Spock?
"Give a man criticism and you can improve his software for a day. Teach a man how to be a critic and he can improve your software for a lifetime...." Old Spock?
Moderator Action: And now I'd suggest everyone step away from discussing other users and focus on discussing their posts instead.
Commander Bello
Say No 2 Net Validations
"It is from their critics, not their fanbois, that companies learn the lesson of making good software...." Aristophanes Bello
"Give a man criticism and you can improve his software for a day. Teach a man how to be a critic and he can improve your software for a lifetime...." Old Spock?
And now imagine, how poor Firaxis' software would be without me being around since 7 years.
SevenSpirits
Immortal?
- Joined
- Jul 7, 2007
- Messages
- 512
This is the big problem but I don't think you even touched on the main reason for the conflict there.
It's a massive problem for modders if every player has a different version of civ, due to different combinations of DLC. For example, if I make a mod that affects every civ... first of all, if I as a modder don't have every DLC civ, I won't include the ones I lack and my mod is going to seem slightly incomplete to people who do. Secondly I have to balance my mod for dozens of possible permutations of available civs. Even just world map scenarios end up being a logistical nightmare. If I include Babylon, probably 80+% of players won't even be able to use my map.
The fundamental problem is that the point of DLC is price discrimination (using slightly different products to charge different amounts of money to people who are willing to pay different amounts of money), but what's necessary for moddability is a single, stable foundation to build off of.
Personally I am an optimist and I do believe moddability will push through (maybe it's just hope). But it sure isn't going to on the base of a Balkanized DLC wasteland. If the price of getting ALL the DLC ends up being significantly lower than currently appears plausible (like an expansion pack), mods may end up being built on that. If not, they'll probably either be built on a base of NO DLC, or on a base mod which replicates all of it.
The upshot is that I think the best strategy for now is to just buy the base game and not waste any money on DLC. We'll see what happens soon enough, and 2k is certainly not going to pass up the opportunity to sell the same DLC they're offering now for less later. (Clearly they really, really like price discrimination, and lowering prices over time is an extremely effective version of that.) I really would have supported Firaxis by buying the deluxe edition earlier, but with announcements of other editions that have other bonuses it's clearly not worth it.
I said this regarding the title of the post. Zero Day release of DLC means that could have been included with the game and shouldn't have to be paid seperately.
DLC use to mean new products for a game, after a few months after release not same day release. Hence Disrespecting Loyal Customers. We who have bought every Civ Game and expansion packs, and then going out to buy Civ V and not getting same day release DLC for free?
I find I am being Disrespected as a loyal fan of the series. At least let me play the game for a month or 2 before adding new stuff to the game. That is what DLC was originally intended for. Play the game, once it's finished play it again, with something new.
How are we playing with something new, when everything is new?
Wardancing
Warlord
- Joined
- Mar 31, 2010
- Messages
- 162
Sounds a lot more modder friendly when you put it that way.
Yes, the Game release, Expansion later down the road method has been doing good for Civilization over the years, No? Wasnt everything from Warlords included in BtS? IE, if you install BtS you get all the civs from Warlords? Maybe im wrong. My guess is that they might release an expansion later down the road including --most-- DLC. But -some- people will start to get angry with paying multiple times for the same chunks of information. Another thing, I wasnt too happy with Gamespy coming packaged with Civ, but i was able to Not install it, which made me not care. Steam on the other hand is No choice, and then im another user in their database for them to use as a statistic to prove how great DLC is? Better for me to just not buy.
Isnt this the company that was associated with the last GTA? I recall lots of 10/10 previews, with little mention of all the initial problems, and windowslive. I boycotted that game because of WindowsLive.
Seems to me, the trend lately is to release little info, and let the preorders roll in. How close to release did MW2 let on about lack of dedicated servers? Preorders got canceled, Amazon rates dropped.
I never preorder, i dont trust previews, and the only reviews i care about are from friends and family.
Minmaster
Prince
yup it'd be a sad sight to see everyone turn on firaxis/2k ala infinity ward/activision with the whole MW2 backlash.
The Almighty dF
Pharaoh
Especially since Civ kinda depends on a dedicated fanbase. Some games can do this, others can't.
You might want to hit me, but i really can't see what's special about civ in that case.
mechaerik
Tuturuu!
Not necessarily. Sure the initial leaders will likely be so, but after a while, they will improve.
Look at the evolution of custom leaders for civ4. They started out as almost entirely reskins, but nowadays some of them look superior to the stock leaderheads. Im sure, given enough time, that Civ5 leaders will eventually stop looking subpar.
Commander Bello
Say No 2 Net Validations
Has there ever been any leaderhead which was not based on the original ones?
And how long has it taken, until acceptable ones have been released by graphics modders?
I wouldn't put too much hope in the expectation that we will find user-made leaders soon.
kozzer
Liberated Autocrat
- Joined
- Dec 8, 2005
- Messages
- 141
Didn't they say that the leaderheads aren't going to be pre-rendered movies, but rather 3D models rendered in real-time? If that's the case, wouldn't it be reasonable to assume that it's similar to creating your own 3D models & skins for units? If so, then there's potential for user-created leaderheads to be just as good as the Firaxis supplied ones.
As far as mods "competing" with similar DLC content, my personal opinion is that they won't restrict mods, because when you buy new civs (whether in DLC or expansion) you're not just paying for XML documents with values, but also the artwork - and that's where the real effort comes from. Anyone can create a custom Civ with custom stats/text in an hour or two, but it's the artwork that takes all the time. So that's what you'd be buying.
All that said, while I wouldn't say that 0-day DLC is "disrespectful" I do find it less than ideal. It'd be a completely different situation if these extra civs came out a couple months after launch.
As far as mods "competing" with similar DLC content, my personal opinion is that they won't restrict mods, because when you buy new civs (whether in DLC or expansion) you're not just paying for XML documents with values, but also the artwork - and that's where the real effort comes from. Anyone can create a custom Civ with custom stats/text in an hour or two, but it's the artwork that takes all the time. So that's what you'd be buying.
All that said, while I wouldn't say that 0-day DLC is "disrespectful" I do find it less than ideal. It'd be a completely different situation if these extra civs came out a couple months after launch.
Commander Bello
Say No 2 Net Validations
I am not a specialist for graphics, but I would be astonished to learn that our (otherwise quite good graphics modders) would be able to create 3D-models which can be animated and look like the ones the professional artists at Firaxis have made.
If I am proven wrong later on, the better.
To this I agree. That would indicate aftersales support.
The way it is now just means rip-off.
mechaerik
Tuturuu!
Well, depends what you mean by original ones. Some people have managed to import nifs from other games and use them as leaders (although thats not really custom), and many have made parts for leaders from scratch.
Nearly all have been based on some original leader, HOWEVER, several people do such good work, many times you cannot tell who its based on, except by the animation (and with skeleton swapping techniques, even thats often changed).
Now, I believe that it will take a while to reach that caliber again, BUT it should be faster than the Civ4 progression, what with the techniques developed, whereas Civ4's progression began slowly, because (I assume, having only played and modded Civ4) entirely new techniques had to be developed in the transition from Civ3 to Civ4's new 3D engine.
Obviously, this is mostly my belief, as I do not know how the modding transition went from Civ3 to Civ4.
mechaerik
Tuturuu!
Update:
Even right now Ekmek (probably the best Civ4 LH maker) is practicing making a full leader, as opposed to a leaderhead
He's planning on making a fully custom Cleopatra LH.
Even right now Ekmek (probably the best Civ4 LH maker) is practicing making a full leader, as opposed to a leaderhead
He's planning on making a fully custom Cleopatra LH.
Shurdus
Am I Napoleon?
While that is really nice and everything, that is only half the work. We would still need custom music, and good voice acting. We need to find a woman who can properly speak a dialect that is good enough to at least suspend the belief that this could be Cleopatra, and we need to record the sound in a professional quality.
If all that can be done and still be impressive, then a lot of kudo's to the guys making that. In fact, if the good modders can really do that in a way that is sound and professional, I would be willing to support that by donating with paypal for every leader I download.
Le Sage
Emperor
My woman can do a mean English with Swedish accent! Modding the leaderheads in Civ5, I bet that's what we'll be stuck with for Cleopatra.
