ZF1 - Zed's Training Day Game
- Thread starter Zed-F
- Start date
A picture is worth a thousand words! 
Ok, not too many comments this time, partly because there's not oo much description of what you're building. Lots of talk about diplomacy, which is fine... but not much about what got built.
Two things cost us the Pyramids:
- Not doing everything we could to make our wonder city (Shanghai) as productive as possible -- this primarily means building that settler, but there wasn't enough focus there on improving Shanghai's tiles in the early stages.
- Not keeping tabs on who was building the Pyramids, and in what city, and how well-developed is that city. Check F7 whenever you are in a wonder race, that will tell you what you're up against (to a degree.)
Now, this isn't the end of the world, and we can still fall back on something else like the Great Library... it's just that there's nothing remotely as useful as Pyramids available until the Middle Ages. The Great Library will do three things for us:
- It will save us a bit of cash buying tech. Not much though since we'd buy at last civ prices.
- It will save us a bit of time waiting for the AI civs to shop it around to everyone; we would only need to wait for 2 civs to have it.
- It will let us get tech without having a trading partner. I.E., if everyone else is ticked at us, we still get the tech.
As you can see, none of those is that great... but it's not horrible either. What else is available? The Great Wall would be a huge waste and isn't very good anyway. We can't build the Lighthouse or Colossus since they can only be in coastal citiies. That leaves the Hanging Gardens... which isn't too bad, though we'd need Monarchy (which I don't recall anyone mentioning us getting) and since we have a fair amount of lux already the effects aren't really useful. So, for the moment we don't have much choice but to go for the Library.
One thing we absolutely must do now that we've lost the Pyramids is we must build Granaries as soon as possible in all our cities, but most especially in our core cities that are on fresh water. This will enable them to grow past 6 much more readily as it offsets the doubling of food that's required. If we had not been trying to build the Pyramids, these would have been one of the first things we would have built. We can build them normally in core cities that have good production, and rush them in centers with high food but moderate-high corruption (like Tatung.) This will let us increase the rate at which cities like Tatung can pump out workers/settlers.
Elsewhere, I notice we have quite a few core cities building horsemen... if there is an urgent need for them, a round of horsemen is fine, but try not to take core cities off infrastructure for very long if possible. Of course, if you've run out of improvements to build for the moment, that's another matter... it seems unlikely, but it is possible. We actually need Currency so that we can build markets, since that's where most of our happiness is going to come from. If we're really stuck for stuff to build, it might be worthwhile to research that... but if we're not really stuck for stuff to build then we should just go ahead and plan to get it from the AIs either through purchase or through the Great Library.
As for what we do need in our cities (not necessarily in any particular order):
- Temples
- Granaries
- Courthouses
- Harbours where necessary
- Barracks
- Walls in border towns that are likely to get attacked
- Marketplaces
- Aqueducts where necessary
- Cathedrals (eventually)
- Banks (eventually)
We don't need Libraries since we don't really plan on ever researching anything again so all they give us is a culture bonus. Colliseums are something that people rarely build unless they are really stuck for happiness -- but we could use them as a prebuild for marketplaces or cathedrals. So, if you can't build anything off that list, either prebuild for something you expect to be able to build soon, or else start cranking out military -- i.e. horses.
This advice mainly applies to our core cities, i.e. those we are choosing to build up; our second-tier cities that are supporting this effort can continue to build workers, settlers, and military until we have a coupe core cities that are done building infrastructure for a while and can take over the military build burden. If you notice a city is not growing because it's at size 6 (or 12), by all means skim a settler or a worker out of it before moving on to the next build item, whether it's infrastructure or military.
It looks like most of our core cities now have a fair number of improved tiles to work. Good job everyone! We're not done yet, of course, but we're a good chunk of the way there. Once we've got most of the tiles we need for our cities to grow to 12 taken care of, we can start moving the bulk of our workers out toward our second-tier cities to improve their lands in preparation for the time we start building infrastructure there and let our core cities take over on the military end of things. Even then we'll still need a few workers at our core cities to finish up on the remaining tiles they have available for use. In the meantime, we still have a lot of hills to mine and forests to clear near our core cities...
Now, on to specifics...
Chengdu is a 1st-ring city; I would not be building settlers there, I would be trying to build it up into a good sized productive center. Certainly we should not be building settlers there before we have built a granary.
Is that irrigation I see next to Xinjian under that worker? If so, and you were able to sneak it between those hills, good for you! I didn't think that was possible; when I've tried it in the past the game hasn't allowed it. Maybe I'll have to try it some more and see under what conditions it will and won't allow diagonal irrigation between hills. Like our other 1st-ring cities, Xinjian needs a granary, especially since it can be a good worker source prior to it building an aqueduct.
Shanghai needs some irrigated grass in its radius so it can grow faster, since it doesn't have a bonus food tile in radius.
Tatung needs a granary so that it can be an even more effective worker/settler factory. Rush it if it can't build one in a reasonable amount of time.
- Important note: only do this if Tatung is not a hopelessly corrupt 1/1 city! If it is, then don't spend money there; you should never spend money on infrastructure in a hopelessly corrupt city because you will never make it back, with the possible exceptions of walls, barracks, or airport if you need it as a military base, or a temple/library if you need its borders to expand to help achieve a domination victory. Even a courthouse will not help a truly hopelessly corrupt city, but if you can get a second trade arrow or shield in the city without building a courthouse there, then you know that building a courthouse will reduce corruption further.
Tientsin needs walls since the Iros are now at war with us. A barracks there would be good too. These are more important than building units there since that's a logical focus point for enemy attacks and a logical base of operations for us; we can build units anywhere. We should also keep a couple reserve troops stationed at Nanking and Tuskany Bay to deter attacks toward our core cities.
Tsingtao is stuck at size 6. How far is it along on the courthouse? If it wouldnt waste shields, it would be better to build a settler first. As I recall, Tsingtao is a high food city so it should be back at size 6 soon.
Check our military advisor and see what our military strength is like compared to the Iros. Also check to see if the Iros have horses or iron. If they are missing horses, they can't build their UU, and if they are missing Iron, they can't build swords. If the odds look good enough in our favour, we might start a limited war against them and see how it goes. It should be pretty easy to zap Niagra Falls and Oil Springs, and maybe settle a quick peace with them by the time 10 turns have elapsed. If you do go that way, it would be nice if we had a couple of settlers to follow up, but it's ok if it can't be done. If you do attack Niagra Falls and Oil Springs, remember to bring spears along to defend the horses, and to attack from high ground so that if you get counter-attacked your defensive troops have an easy time of it.
Diplomatically, we now have 2 civs at war with us, let's see what we can do to prevent there being a third. If we can sell Literature around and get some alliances going aimed at our enemies, great. Don't spend too much cash doing it though, as we need that to improve our cities.
We still need to found green dot on the edge of our land. I thought there was a settler being built at Canton for that purpose -- did it get used for something else? Tsk tsk. We want all tiles in reasonable proximity to our capital to get worked, and this qualifies. You need to pop another settler out of Canton, so swap out that horse; Canton can only get to size 6 anyway prior to an aqueduct, so that's a good place to get the settler from. I don't even think you want to build a granary first since if you do you'll be stuck at size 6 for quite a while, but you can build the granary afterwards.
Two things cost us the Pyramids:
- Not doing everything we could to make our wonder city (Shanghai) as productive as possible -- this primarily means building that settler, but there wasn't enough focus there on improving Shanghai's tiles in the early stages.
- Not keeping tabs on who was building the Pyramids, and in what city, and how well-developed is that city. Check F7 whenever you are in a wonder race, that will tell you what you're up against (to a degree.)
Now, this isn't the end of the world, and we can still fall back on something else like the Great Library... it's just that there's nothing remotely as useful as Pyramids available until the Middle Ages. The Great Library will do three things for us:
- It will save us a bit of cash buying tech. Not much though since we'd buy at last civ prices.
- It will save us a bit of time waiting for the AI civs to shop it around to everyone; we would only need to wait for 2 civs to have it.
- It will let us get tech without having a trading partner. I.E., if everyone else is ticked at us, we still get the tech.
As you can see, none of those is that great... but it's not horrible either. What else is available? The Great Wall would be a huge waste and isn't very good anyway. We can't build the Lighthouse or Colossus since they can only be in coastal citiies. That leaves the Hanging Gardens... which isn't too bad, though we'd need Monarchy (which I don't recall anyone mentioning us getting) and since we have a fair amount of lux already the effects aren't really useful. So, for the moment we don't have much choice but to go for the Library.
One thing we absolutely must do now that we've lost the Pyramids is we must build Granaries as soon as possible in all our cities, but most especially in our core cities that are on fresh water. This will enable them to grow past 6 much more readily as it offsets the doubling of food that's required. If we had not been trying to build the Pyramids, these would have been one of the first things we would have built. We can build them normally in core cities that have good production, and rush them in centers with high food but moderate-high corruption (like Tatung.) This will let us increase the rate at which cities like Tatung can pump out workers/settlers.
Elsewhere, I notice we have quite a few core cities building horsemen... if there is an urgent need for them, a round of horsemen is fine, but try not to take core cities off infrastructure for very long if possible. Of course, if you've run out of improvements to build for the moment, that's another matter... it seems unlikely, but it is possible. We actually need Currency so that we can build markets, since that's where most of our happiness is going to come from. If we're really stuck for stuff to build, it might be worthwhile to research that... but if we're not really stuck for stuff to build then we should just go ahead and plan to get it from the AIs either through purchase or through the Great Library.
As for what we do need in our cities (not necessarily in any particular order):
- Temples
- Granaries
- Courthouses
- Harbours where necessary
- Barracks
- Walls in border towns that are likely to get attacked
- Marketplaces
- Aqueducts where necessary
- Cathedrals (eventually)
- Banks (eventually)
We don't need Libraries since we don't really plan on ever researching anything again so all they give us is a culture bonus. Colliseums are something that people rarely build unless they are really stuck for happiness -- but we could use them as a prebuild for marketplaces or cathedrals. So, if you can't build anything off that list, either prebuild for something you expect to be able to build soon, or else start cranking out military -- i.e. horses.
This advice mainly applies to our core cities, i.e. those we are choosing to build up; our second-tier cities that are supporting this effort can continue to build workers, settlers, and military until we have a coupe core cities that are done building infrastructure for a while and can take over the military build burden. If you notice a city is not growing because it's at size 6 (or 12), by all means skim a settler or a worker out of it before moving on to the next build item, whether it's infrastructure or military.
It looks like most of our core cities now have a fair number of improved tiles to work. Good job everyone! We're not done yet, of course, but we're a good chunk of the way there. Once we've got most of the tiles we need for our cities to grow to 12 taken care of, we can start moving the bulk of our workers out toward our second-tier cities to improve their lands in preparation for the time we start building infrastructure there and let our core cities take over on the military end of things. Even then we'll still need a few workers at our core cities to finish up on the remaining tiles they have available for use. In the meantime, we still have a lot of hills to mine and forests to clear near our core cities...
Now, on to specifics...
Chengdu is a 1st-ring city; I would not be building settlers there, I would be trying to build it up into a good sized productive center. Certainly we should not be building settlers there before we have built a granary.
Is that irrigation I see next to Xinjian under that worker? If so, and you were able to sneak it between those hills, good for you! I didn't think that was possible; when I've tried it in the past the game hasn't allowed it. Maybe I'll have to try it some more and see under what conditions it will and won't allow diagonal irrigation between hills. Like our other 1st-ring cities, Xinjian needs a granary, especially since it can be a good worker source prior to it building an aqueduct.
Shanghai needs some irrigated grass in its radius so it can grow faster, since it doesn't have a bonus food tile in radius.
Tatung needs a granary so that it can be an even more effective worker/settler factory. Rush it if it can't build one in a reasonable amount of time.
- Important note: only do this if Tatung is not a hopelessly corrupt 1/1 city! If it is, then don't spend money there; you should never spend money on infrastructure in a hopelessly corrupt city because you will never make it back, with the possible exceptions of walls, barracks, or airport if you need it as a military base, or a temple/library if you need its borders to expand to help achieve a domination victory. Even a courthouse will not help a truly hopelessly corrupt city, but if you can get a second trade arrow or shield in the city without building a courthouse there, then you know that building a courthouse will reduce corruption further.
Tientsin needs walls since the Iros are now at war with us. A barracks there would be good too. These are more important than building units there since that's a logical focus point for enemy attacks and a logical base of operations for us; we can build units anywhere. We should also keep a couple reserve troops stationed at Nanking and Tuskany Bay to deter attacks toward our core cities.
Tsingtao is stuck at size 6. How far is it along on the courthouse? If it wouldnt waste shields, it would be better to build a settler first. As I recall, Tsingtao is a high food city so it should be back at size 6 soon.
Check our military advisor and see what our military strength is like compared to the Iros. Also check to see if the Iros have horses or iron. If they are missing horses, they can't build their UU, and if they are missing Iron, they can't build swords. If the odds look good enough in our favour, we might start a limited war against them and see how it goes. It should be pretty easy to zap Niagra Falls and Oil Springs, and maybe settle a quick peace with them by the time 10 turns have elapsed. If you do go that way, it would be nice if we had a couple of settlers to follow up, but it's ok if it can't be done. If you do attack Niagra Falls and Oil Springs, remember to bring spears along to defend the horses, and to attack from high ground so that if you get counter-attacked your defensive troops have an easy time of it.
Diplomatically, we now have 2 civs at war with us, let's see what we can do to prevent there being a third. If we can sell Literature around and get some alliances going aimed at our enemies, great. Don't spend too much cash doing it though, as we need that to improve our cities.
We still need to found green dot on the edge of our land. I thought there was a settler being built at Canton for that purpose -- did it get used for something else? Tsk tsk. We want all tiles in reasonable proximity to our capital to get worked, and this qualifies. You need to pop another settler out of Canton, so swap out that horse; Canton can only get to size 6 anyway prior to an aqueduct, so that's a good place to get the settler from. I don't even think you want to build a granary first since if you do you'll be stuck at size 6 for quite a while, but you can build the granary afterwards.
ChrTh
Happy Yule!
I got the game, I'll be playing this weekend (in between Star Wars viewings 
)
)
ChrTh
Happy Yule!
Gee, Zed, I'd hate to see one of your posts when you have a lot of comments! It would take up 18 pages! 
Mystery13
Prince
ChrTh, where are you? Did you get lost in a Clones line?
ChrTh
Happy Yule!
Actually, yeah
I had to work Sunday (in between Clones' viewings) so I didn't have time for my turns. I'll play and post tonight (EDT).Mystery13
Prince
ChrTh, where are you? If you got hit by a light saber let us know. I was hoping our game wouldn't get bogged down like the other training day games but it looks like it's too late now.
ChrTh
Happy Yule!
I apologize
Things have been busy, but I think I got a reprieve tonight so I'll play come heck or high water.
ChrTh
Happy Yule!
Turn 0 -- 150 BC
FINALLY.
Making changes based on Zed-F's recommendations:
Change Chengdu from Settler to Granary
Xinjian changed to Granary
Tatung changed to Granary...will rush in a couple turns
Tsingtao micromanaged to complete Courthouse 1 turn sooner (at the expense of 'growing' 2 turns later...but since it can't grow, it's not an issue)
Canton changed to Settler
We have a Strong Military compared to the Iriquois...so we're in good shape there.
My goals for this turn:
Don't do anything stupid against the Iroquois
Found the city of Sunrise
I trade Literature to the English for 30 Gold + World Map
I trade Literature to the Japanese for 30 Gold.
Unfortunately, the price of an alliance is too high...for now.
The Iroquois definitely have horses hooked up. They have Iron in their territory, but I don't know if it's hooked up (depends on how recent the Territory Map is)
Turn 1 -- 130 BC
Dockonda Bay completes Horseman...I order up Temple. Horseman heads towards Iroquois territory.
MMOW! (Seriously!)
Turn 2 -- 110 BC
Tuskany Bay completes Courthouse, orders up Barracks
Our Cultural Influence is Expanding!
I check F8...and we're in the lead! The important thing is, though, we're growing relative to the other Civs.
Some troop and worker movement.
Horseman attacks Oil Springs...and flees for his life.
I hurry Harbor at Diamond Delta for 56 Gold so it can grow again.
I hurry Granary at Tatung for 200-something Gold...I then Micro-manage so that City will grow in 2 instead of 1 [otherwise we lose advantage of Granary since city grows first, then production completes]
Turn 3 -- 90 BC
Beijing completes Horseman, begins Granary
Diamond Delta completes Harbor, begins Barracks (next player can probably change)
Tatung completes Granary, orders up Settler.
London completes the Oracle.
I hurry Spearman production in Padmativa...I want my Elite Warrior to take out that stupid Iro warrior fortified nearby.
I change Tatung to a Temple. He's sharing too many spaces with Macao and needs to expand. We should hurry it at some point.
Turn 4 -- 70 BC
Padmativa builds spearman, I order up Barracks.
My elite Warrior gets his butt whooped. DOH!
My horseman invades Niagara Falls...and gets his butt whooped. DOH!
Sensing a pattern, I decide to hold off.
I check with Hammy...he's willing to make peace for 20 Gold...but I need to wait a couple more turns to avoid the Rep hit.
Turn 5 -- 50 BC
Canton builds Settler, I order up Temple
Turn 6 -- 30 BC
Dockonda Bay finishes Horseman, orders up Temple
Tuskany Bay finishes Barracks, orders up Swordsman--scratch that, Granary.
Turn 7 -- 10 BC
Whoa! Barbarian uprising by our Western Warrior.
Tsingtao finishes Courthouse, begins Aqueduct
Xinjian finishes, um, something, I forget what...orders up Aqueduct
I hurry the Temple in Tatung.
My Warrior pillages the Iron in Iro territory
Anyang founded, Barracks ordered up (feel free to change)
I buy Monarchy from the Persians for 100 Gold plus World Map
I make peace with the Babylonians and get Currency as well, in the end it costs us 90 Gold plus World Map, which we'll make up in 1 turn anyhow (+91 GPT)
I make peace with the Iroquois for 47 Gold + 4 GPT.
We are at Peace
I apologize for doing a lousy job prosecuting the war...but I don't think we're ready to conquer, yet...(at least, not until Chivalry)
Turn 8 -- 10 AD
Hey, we're in the Middle Ages!
Our troops are automatically moved back to our soil (I love it when a plan comes together)
Beijing finishes Granary, begins Marketplace.
Nanking finishes Barracks, begins Granary.
Hangchow finishes Temple, begins Aqueduct.
Tientsin finishes Walls, begins Worker.
Tatung finishes Temple, begins Barracks.
I'm using the Western Warrior to lure the Barbarian uprising to Babylonian lands
Turn 9 -- 30 AD
I micromanage Chengdu to finish Granary before growing
ZzzZzz
Turn 10 -- 50 AD
Xerxes wants a Military Alliance...I instead work out a Right of Passage, for which he gives me 54 Gold and a World Map (couldn't get Feudalism out of him, though)
ZzzZzz
Well, that's my turn Sorry it took so long...hope I didn't screw up too bad.
Canton might want to switch from Temple to Aqueduct, just an FYI, I leave it for the next player.
Here's the save:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads/ZF1-china-50ad.zip
FINALLY.
Making changes based on Zed-F's recommendations:
Change Chengdu from Settler to Granary
Xinjian changed to Granary
Tatung changed to Granary...will rush in a couple turns
Tsingtao micromanaged to complete Courthouse 1 turn sooner (at the expense of 'growing' 2 turns later...but since it can't grow, it's not an issue)
Canton changed to Settler
We have a Strong Military compared to the Iriquois...so we're in good shape there.
My goals for this turn:
Don't do anything stupid against the Iroquois
Found the city of Sunrise
I trade Literature to the English for 30 Gold + World Map
I trade Literature to the Japanese for 30 Gold.
Unfortunately, the price of an alliance is too high...for now.
The Iroquois definitely have horses hooked up. They have Iron in their territory, but I don't know if it's hooked up (depends on how recent the Territory Map is)
Turn 1 -- 130 BC
Dockonda Bay completes Horseman...I order up Temple. Horseman heads towards Iroquois territory.
MMOW! (Seriously!)
Turn 2 -- 110 BC
Tuskany Bay completes Courthouse, orders up Barracks
Our Cultural Influence is Expanding!
I check F8...and we're in the lead!
The important thing is, though, we're growing relative to the other Civs.Some troop and worker movement.
Horseman attacks Oil Springs...and flees for his life.
I hurry Harbor at Diamond Delta for 56 Gold so it can grow again.
I hurry Granary at Tatung for 200-something Gold...I then Micro-manage so that City will grow in 2 instead of 1 [otherwise we lose advantage of Granary since city grows first, then production completes]
Turn 3 -- 90 BC
Beijing completes Horseman, begins Granary
Diamond Delta completes Harbor, begins Barracks (next player can probably change)
Tatung completes Granary, orders up Settler.
London completes the Oracle.
I hurry Spearman production in Padmativa...I want my Elite Warrior to take out that stupid Iro warrior fortified nearby.
I change Tatung to a Temple. He's sharing too many spaces with Macao and needs to expand. We should hurry it at some point.
Turn 4 -- 70 BC
Padmativa builds spearman, I order up Barracks.
My elite Warrior gets his butt whooped. DOH!
My horseman invades Niagara Falls...and gets his butt whooped. DOH!
Sensing a pattern, I decide to hold off.
I check with Hammy...he's willing to make peace for 20 Gold...but I need to wait a couple more turns to avoid the Rep hit.
Turn 5 -- 50 BC
Canton builds Settler, I order up Temple
Turn 6 -- 30 BC
Dockonda Bay finishes Horseman, orders up Temple
Tuskany Bay finishes Barracks, orders up Swordsman--scratch that, Granary.
Turn 7 -- 10 BC
Whoa! Barbarian uprising by our Western Warrior.
Tsingtao finishes Courthouse, begins Aqueduct
Xinjian finishes, um, something, I forget what...orders up Aqueduct
I hurry the Temple in Tatung.
My Warrior pillages the Iron in Iro territory
Anyang founded, Barracks ordered up (feel free to change)
I buy Monarchy from the Persians for 100 Gold plus World Map
I make peace with the Babylonians and get Currency as well, in the end it costs us 90 Gold plus World Map, which we'll make up in 1 turn anyhow (+91 GPT)
I make peace with the Iroquois for 47 Gold + 4 GPT.
We are at Peace
I apologize for doing a lousy job prosecuting the war...but I don't think we're ready to conquer, yet...(at least, not until Chivalry)
Turn 8 -- 10 AD
Hey, we're in the Middle Ages!
Our troops are automatically moved back to our soil (I love it when a plan comes together)
Beijing finishes Granary, begins Marketplace.
Nanking finishes Barracks, begins Granary.
Hangchow finishes Temple, begins Aqueduct.
Tientsin finishes Walls, begins Worker.
Tatung finishes Temple, begins Barracks.
I'm using the Western Warrior to lure the Barbarian uprising to Babylonian lands
Turn 9 -- 30 AD
I micromanage Chengdu to finish Granary before growing
ZzzZzz
Turn 10 -- 50 AD
Xerxes wants a Military Alliance...I instead work out a Right of Passage, for which he gives me 54 Gold and a World Map (couldn't get Feudalism out of him, though)
ZzzZzz
Well, that's my turn
Sorry it took so long...hope I didn't screw up too bad.Canton might want to switch from Temple to Aqueduct, just an FYI, I leave it for the next player.
Here's the save:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads/ZF1-china-50ad.zip
ChrTh
Happy Yule!
I don't know; more than 20 turns had elapsed (counting through the last two players' turns)...but I don't know how to end agreements, or if it ended automatically....which is why I'm playing Training Games
Yes, I did do that...I'm lousy at warfare....which is why I'm playing Training Games
Mystery13
Prince
I also am in the training games to learn warfare. However, I'm certain I would never have sent individual horsies at cities with any winning expectation. Nevertheless, Zed, fire away with any of your Civ3 military knowledge.
I remember the good old days of civ2, wait for rails and howitzers and blow away the world in under 50 turns. I used to take out full civilizations of 30+ cities in one or two turns. This is no longer possible in civ3.
I remember the good old days of civ2, wait for rails and howitzers and blow away the world in under 50 turns. I used to take out full civilizations of 30+ cities in one or two turns. This is no longer possible in civ3.
- Joined
- Aug 15, 2001
- Messages
- 20,064
This is exactly what is GOOD about Civ3.
Absurdly fast destruction of civs no longer happen.
In Civ2 I was the spymaster - I would start to buy cities soon as I had cash. I even bought cities in the BC time frame if I had the cash. It was a very predictable plan -
1) build a diplomat / spy
2) generate cash
3) buy a city
4) back to step 1
Civ3 makes you earn your win.
ChrTh, you forgot to attach a map. Next time, ok?
Hmm, that seems a little low... did we miss some bartering opportunities somewhere along the line and have to barter at late-civ prices?
Looking ahead, I see you build a granary next... which probably means you should have built the granary first and then the barracks. Only build a barracks if you need it for troops to heal, or if you plan on building troops there right away.
It looks like Tuscany Bay is becoming almost like a core city in that it has a courthouse and a granary, and is on a lake so it can grow to 12. If we don't need it for military purposes or to build settlers/workers right now, that's fine... in that case it will need a market soon for happiness purposes. However, since it's not a 1st-ring city, if you need more military, better to delay infrastructure here rather than in a 1st-ring city.
I also see that Tsingtao is building an Aqueduct and is on the same path... again, fine, providing our military is sufficiently strong. I suspect right now that it's not, despite our being strong relative to the Iros and Japs. How about the other civs? We don't want any of them marching across the world and declaring on us because of perceived weakness. We do still need to keep pumping horses/spears/workers in order to keep up the appearance of being strong and to have troops we can upgrade later when we get to chivalry. Note, this last point is vital! We can save an absolute TON of shields by building a large army of horses prior to Chivalry and then upgrading them all. We will need to start building horses soon in order for that to happen.
Good job on the micro at Tatung. Of course it needs to have its food bumped up again after it grows.
Ok, I'm not going to claim to be an expert on warfare (check with Arathorn on that) but here's an excerpt from warfare 101:
- When attacking to take control of enemy territory, always bring a decisive force. To take out Oil Springs you would need at least 3-4 horse, preferably more, as well as a defensive unit or two to protect them. You do not want to waste time and give the defenders an opportunity to heal between battles if you can avoid it.
- When going on the offensive, always use fully rested troops, unless you are desperate. Remember the defender gets the first opportunity to get a blow in and it alternates after that, so if both sides hit every time and the units have equal hit points the defender wins. You need to make sure your attackers have max hit points to minimize the defenders' advantage.
- The closer the enemy city is to the capital, the more likely it is to flip, especially away from us, since we have low culture. Also, the bigger the city, the longer it takes to pacify and the more foreign nationals it will have, which also increases the risk of flipping. These are important factors to consider when deciding whether to capture or to raze. If you do capture an enemy city it's often best to starve it down to size 1 to eliminate the foreign citizens and regrow citizens that are natively of your civilization.
- It's often a good idea to bring along of less-valuable troops (e.g. cheap dead-end troops from earlier eras like swords) to act as garrison troops and MPs for happiness in cities that are not likely to be attacked (e.g. rear-area cities.) This frees up your best troops for actual offensive operations and guarding key cities, where they can make the most difference. Building garrison troops from time to time can save you many shields over making your entire army of the best available units.
- Bombardment units are great on defense (even catapults to some extent, but especially starting with cannon) but of limited use on the offense until the Industrial ages, as they are just too slow. Once you get to the Industrial ages, bombardment units become some of the best units in the game -- in sufficient numbers, they allow you to beat down enemy cities and units to the point where you just need to mop up with the rest of your units, meaning very few casualties. The key difference is that rails go a long way to offsetting their slow movement and allow you to concentrate your bombardment troops at the point where you need them. This is even more true when you get Artillery, as by then the AIs have built up a significant rail net which you can capture and use to further your own offensive. We're quite a ways away from that, however.
Also, reposted from earlier in the thread:
General advice for when you do attack -- be aware of the terrain, it can make a huge difference. Don't attack across rivers, but try to defend across rivers. Don't attack into defensible terrain, try to defend defensible terrain. If you have the manpower, try to deny the high ground to the enemy; they will often try to approach their objective (like your city) while travelling along a hill/mountain chain, so if you see them using one for that purpose getting some units up near the beginning of the chain will force them to attack you there where you have the high ground, rather than making it hard for you to drive them off as they have the high ground while they march on your city. Try not to leave mobile units vulnerable to counter-attack; they generally have low defense and are too costly and valuable on offense to waste, so either ensure that no enemy can get to them, or else cover them with a defensive troop.
Tatung building a temple, ok. It's got a granary now so it's probably growing faster than you can pop off settlers anyway. Remember if you can afford to bleed pop quickly, workers are faster -- 20 shields for 2 pop as opposed to 30. BUT, what we don't want to get into is a situation where Tatung is growing bigger than size 6, since the amount of food required to grow beyond that point doubles, and this city is sufficiently corrupt right now that all it's really got going for it is food, so we need to maximize our benefit.
Did you check what terrain the Iro was fortified on? Odds are, it's got a defensive bonus; the AI doesn't usually fortify unless it's on a defensive bonus terrain. Attacking a fortified warrior in a strong defensive position with another warrior is not a good plan. A better idea would be to upgrade that warrior to a sword first!
Same deal with a single horse against Niagra Falls. Attacking piecemeal is an AI failing; don't mimic it. This is not to say that there are not situations where a single unit or a token force is not useful, because there are:
- Raiding/Pillaging: A single raider unit can wreak a large amount of havoc and temporarily deprive the enemy of strategic resources, as well as being a nuisance and a distraction. The key here is that raiders must be fast-moving (at least speed 2) in order to avoid being pinned down as long as possible. - Feints/Diversions: Moving a single troop or a token force into attack position on an enemy city can provoke an aggressive response from an enemy civ, who will march a large portion of their mobile army (as opposed to their basic city defenders) into position to defend the threatened city and disperse your troops. You can then use this opportunity to either counterattack their army once it's exposed (be sure to lure them into open terrain) or to attack elsewhere where they are weak.
- Either of these strategies can be abused by "jerking the AI's chain" -- e.g. knowingly moving an attacking troop repeatedly into and out of attack position on an enemy city in order to paralyze their army with indecision on whether to go after your cities or defend their own. This crosses the line from being a legitimate "real-world" tactic to abusing the AI because you know how to manipulate its algorithms to the point where you break them.
However, a real assault on an enemy city is not the job of a single unit. For that, you need an actual assault force -- i.e. enough troops to do the job in 1 turn, expecting that you won't win every combat.
Ok, the fact that we are at peace is a good thing -- we don't really want to be fighting anyone just yet.
But, we didn't really need Monarchy for anything, did we? Certainly not for 100 gold. It's an optional tech, we don't plan on building the Hanging Gardens, and we're already in Republic, so there's 100 gold down the drain. We could have waited on that one and gotten it at last-civ prices, or simply never bothered with it.
Peace with Babs -- you indicated you didn't cancel our alliance with Persia first, not knowing how. It's quite straightforward; at the bottom of the diplomatic window with Persia (or any civ) you will see a couple small buttons labelled "New" and "Active." Simply click on the active button to see deals that are currently in effect, along with the number of turns remaining before they expire. Once a deal is expired it will not have a number next to it but will stay active until you cancel it by clicking on it to remove it from the active list. I'm not sure whether our rep will have taken a hit since we made peace with the Babs while we had an active but expired alliance with the Persians, but it's quite possible. If so, then we may not be able to make GPT deals any longer with other civs without paying a ridiculously inflated price; I'm not quite clear on the penalites involved but whatever they are it's easy enough to avoid them simply by waiting for the alliance to expire then cancelling it before making peace.
Currency from Babs? When our relations with him are bad due to being at war with him, which ups the price? Couldn't you get it from someone else for cheaper?
Peace with Iros cost us 127 gold -- that's a bit expensive, especially since their military is smaller than ours. Of course your losses against them is one reason the price is high. Would have been better to use the Monarchy cash to effect this trade instead, as gpt deals are usually more expensive than non-gpt deals, especially when relations are bad (as they are with Iros since we were at war.)
Ok, now we've got quite a few cities building aqueducts. Lots of infrastructre this turn, and almost no military. We're no longer prosecuting a war, so fine on that score... but if we don't build SOME military, we'll be sure to find ourselves in another war right away. Right now we have a lot of cities tied up in producing aqueducts (which are long-term projects, and which require follow-on markets, another long-term project) when we need at least some of them pumping some more military and workers/settlers. Aqueducts in our 1st-ring cities or cities with high production, fine. But cities like Hangchow don't have a lot of potential for big production, so why build an aqueduct there now? It can wait and build workers/settlers/military until we've got built-up core cities that can take over on those jobs. Too much infrastructure can be just as bad as too little infrastructure if it means that you can't defend what you have, or if it takes too much away from other priorities.
Tatung definately should not be building a barracks; it's a worker/settler factory, remember? It's not going to be building troops anytime soon. Rushing the temple, ok we rushed a granary and a temple there, but THAT'S IT. There is nothing else we need there for now; it needs to get back to being a baby factory. Generally speaking, you don't want to spend money rushing stuff away from the core at least until the core is built up -- there are some exceptions as I mentioned previously, and here the Granary and Temple were valid rush-candidates, but apart from that we're done spending money up here in the jungle. What we need now in our Northern provinces is not infrastructure, but workers to clear the jungle and settlers to claim it.
Next time, ok?Hmm, that seems a little low... did we miss some bartering opportunities somewhere along the line and have to barter at late-civ prices?
Looking ahead, I see you build a granary next... which probably means you should have built the granary first and then the barracks. Only build a barracks if you need it for troops to heal, or if you plan on building troops there right away.
It looks like Tuscany Bay is becoming almost like a core city in that it has a courthouse and a granary, and is on a lake so it can grow to 12. If we don't need it for military purposes or to build settlers/workers right now, that's fine... in that case it will need a market soon for happiness purposes. However, since it's not a 1st-ring city, if you need more military, better to delay infrastructure here rather than in a 1st-ring city.
I also see that Tsingtao is building an Aqueduct and is on the same path... again, fine, providing our military is sufficiently strong. I suspect right now that it's not, despite our being strong relative to the Iros and Japs. How about the other civs? We don't want any of them marching across the world and declaring on us because of perceived weakness. We do still need to keep pumping horses/spears/workers in order to keep up the appearance of being strong and to have troops we can upgrade later when we get to chivalry. Note, this last point is vital! We can save an absolute TON of shields by building a large army of horses prior to Chivalry and then upgrading them all. We will need to start building horses soon in order for that to happen.
Good job on the micro at Tatung. Of course it needs to have its food bumped up again after it grows.
Ok, I'm not going to claim to be an expert on warfare (check with Arathorn on that) but here's an excerpt from warfare 101:
- When attacking to take control of enemy territory, always bring a decisive force. To take out Oil Springs you would need at least 3-4 horse, preferably more, as well as a defensive unit or two to protect them. You do not want to waste time and give the defenders an opportunity to heal between battles if you can avoid it.
- When going on the offensive, always use fully rested troops, unless you are desperate. Remember the defender gets the first opportunity to get a blow in and it alternates after that, so if both sides hit every time and the units have equal hit points the defender wins. You need to make sure your attackers have max hit points to minimize the defenders' advantage.
- The closer the enemy city is to the capital, the more likely it is to flip, especially away from us, since we have low culture. Also, the bigger the city, the longer it takes to pacify and the more foreign nationals it will have, which also increases the risk of flipping. These are important factors to consider when deciding whether to capture or to raze. If you do capture an enemy city it's often best to starve it down to size 1 to eliminate the foreign citizens and regrow citizens that are natively of your civilization.
- It's often a good idea to bring along of less-valuable troops (e.g. cheap dead-end troops from earlier eras like swords) to act as garrison troops and MPs for happiness in cities that are not likely to be attacked (e.g. rear-area cities.) This frees up your best troops for actual offensive operations and guarding key cities, where they can make the most difference. Building garrison troops from time to time can save you many shields over making your entire army of the best available units.
- Bombardment units are great on defense (even catapults to some extent, but especially starting with cannon) but of limited use on the offense until the Industrial ages, as they are just too slow. Once you get to the Industrial ages, bombardment units become some of the best units in the game -- in sufficient numbers, they allow you to beat down enemy cities and units to the point where you just need to mop up with the rest of your units, meaning very few casualties. The key difference is that rails go a long way to offsetting their slow movement and allow you to concentrate your bombardment troops at the point where you need them. This is even more true when you get Artillery, as by then the AIs have built up a significant rail net which you can capture and use to further your own offensive. We're quite a ways away from that, however.
Also, reposted from earlier in the thread:
General advice for when you do attack -- be aware of the terrain, it can make a huge difference. Don't attack across rivers, but try to defend across rivers. Don't attack into defensible terrain, try to defend defensible terrain. If you have the manpower, try to deny the high ground to the enemy; they will often try to approach their objective (like your city) while travelling along a hill/mountain chain, so if you see them using one for that purpose getting some units up near the beginning of the chain will force them to attack you there where you have the high ground, rather than making it hard for you to drive them off as they have the high ground while they march on your city. Try not to leave mobile units vulnerable to counter-attack; they generally have low defense and are too costly and valuable on offense to waste, so either ensure that no enemy can get to them, or else cover them with a defensive troop.
Tatung building a temple, ok. It's got a granary now so it's probably growing faster than you can pop off settlers anyway. Remember if you can afford to bleed pop quickly, workers are faster -- 20 shields for 2 pop as opposed to 30. BUT, what we don't want to get into is a situation where Tatung is growing bigger than size 6, since the amount of food required to grow beyond that point doubles, and this city is sufficiently corrupt right now that all it's really got going for it is food, so we need to maximize our benefit.
Did you check what terrain the Iro was fortified on? Odds are, it's got a defensive bonus; the AI doesn't usually fortify unless it's on a defensive bonus terrain. Attacking a fortified warrior in a strong defensive position with another warrior is not a good plan.
A better idea would be to upgrade that warrior to a sword first!Same deal with a single horse against Niagra Falls. Attacking piecemeal is an AI failing; don't mimic it. This is not to say that there are not situations where a single unit or a token force is not useful, because there are:
- Raiding/Pillaging: A single raider unit can wreak a large amount of havoc and temporarily deprive the enemy of strategic resources, as well as being a nuisance and a distraction. The key here is that raiders must be fast-moving (at least speed 2) in order to avoid being pinned down as long as possible. - Feints/Diversions: Moving a single troop or a token force into attack position on an enemy city can provoke an aggressive response from an enemy civ, who will march a large portion of their mobile army (as opposed to their basic city defenders) into position to defend the threatened city and disperse your troops. You can then use this opportunity to either counterattack their army once it's exposed (be sure to lure them into open terrain) or to attack elsewhere where they are weak.
- Either of these strategies can be abused by "jerking the AI's chain" -- e.g. knowingly moving an attacking troop repeatedly into and out of attack position on an enemy city in order to paralyze their army with indecision on whether to go after your cities or defend their own. This crosses the line from being a legitimate "real-world" tactic to abusing the AI because you know how to manipulate its algorithms to the point where you break them.
However, a real assault on an enemy city is not the job of a single unit. For that, you need an actual assault force -- i.e. enough troops to do the job in 1 turn, expecting that you won't win every combat.
Ok, the fact that we are at peace is a good thing -- we don't really want to be fighting anyone just yet.
But, we didn't really need Monarchy for anything, did we? Certainly not for 100 gold. It's an optional tech, we don't plan on building the Hanging Gardens, and we're already in Republic, so there's 100 gold down the drain. We could have waited on that one and gotten it at last-civ prices, or simply never bothered with it.
Peace with Babs -- you indicated you didn't cancel our alliance with Persia first, not knowing how. It's quite straightforward; at the bottom of the diplomatic window with Persia (or any civ) you will see a couple small buttons labelled "New" and "Active." Simply click on the active button to see deals that are currently in effect, along with the number of turns remaining before they expire. Once a deal is expired it will not have a number next to it but will stay active until you cancel it by clicking on it to remove it from the active list. I'm not sure whether our rep will have taken a hit since we made peace with the Babs while we had an active but expired alliance with the Persians, but it's quite possible. If so, then we may not be able to make GPT deals any longer with other civs without paying a ridiculously inflated price; I'm not quite clear on the penalites involved but whatever they are it's easy enough to avoid them simply by waiting for the alliance to expire then cancelling it before making peace.
Currency from Babs? When our relations with him are bad due to being at war with him, which ups the price? Couldn't you get it from someone else for cheaper?
Peace with Iros cost us 127 gold -- that's a bit expensive, especially since their military is smaller than ours. Of course your losses against them is one reason the price is high.
Would have been better to use the Monarchy cash to effect this trade instead, as gpt deals are usually more expensive than non-gpt deals, especially when relations are bad (as they are with Iros since we were at war.)Ok, now we've got quite a few cities building aqueducts. Lots of infrastructre this turn, and almost no military. We're no longer prosecuting a war, so fine on that score... but if we don't build SOME military, we'll be sure to find ourselves in another war right away. Right now we have a lot of cities tied up in producing aqueducts (which are long-term projects, and which require follow-on markets, another long-term project) when we need at least some of them pumping some more military and workers/settlers. Aqueducts in our 1st-ring cities or cities with high production, fine. But cities like Hangchow don't have a lot of potential for big production, so why build an aqueduct there now? It can wait and build workers/settlers/military until we've got built-up core cities that can take over on those jobs. Too much infrastructure can be just as bad as too little infrastructure if it means that you can't defend what you have, or if it takes too much away from other priorities.
Tatung definately should not be building a barracks; it's a worker/settler factory, remember? It's not going to be building troops anytime soon. Rushing the temple, ok we rushed a granary and a temple there, but THAT'S IT. There is nothing else we need there for now; it needs to get back to being a baby factory. Generally speaking, you don't want to spend money rushing stuff away from the core at least until the core is built up -- there are some exceptions as I mentioned previously, and here the Granary and Temple were valid rush-candidates, but apart from that we're done spending money up here in the jungle. What we need now in our Northern provinces is not infrastructure, but workers to clear the jungle and settlers to claim it.
Part 2...
Ok, here's a BIG DEAL -- we have an almost completed Great Library going in Shanghai. We also know that the Great Library is almost completely useless to us, since the benefits are small (especially now that we're at peace) and it's going to expire soon anyway. SO, if we see that Feudalism is available... we need to get it before we complete the Great Library and swap to Sun Tzu! Sun Tzu is much more useful to us than the Library, even if we are militaristic and get cheap barracks -- it will allow us to save maintenance of barracks in every city, but more importantly, every city on our continent (i.e. on this map, probably every city period) we capture will automatically have a barracks in it, without our having to quell resisters and rush one! This makes a huge difference in how fast we can heal our troops up and keep offensives going. If we needed to, we could also use Sun Tzu as a placeholder for Sistine, but we have enough native lux sources that Sistine should not be an issue.
We do not want the Library, we want Sun Tzu's. So, we need to get Feudalism. PERIOD. Of course, we want to get it for the best possible price, and we may need to broker a bit to get it for as little net cost as possible, but we must get it before we complete the Library.
Also, if Feudalism is available, then Chivalry is right around the corner. If we want to have an army to upgrade, we have to start building horses NOW. Forget aqueducts for the moment; this takes priority. The only thing more important than building horses right now is building granaries and markets in cities that can grow to 12 without an aqueduct and will have happiness problems otherwise; all of our 1st- and 2nd- ring cities should be focussing on one of those two priorities. Our colonies like Tatung and Tientsin that are too remote to have decent production can continue building workers/settlers.
Ok, here's a BIG DEAL -- we have an almost completed Great Library going in Shanghai. We also know that the Great Library is almost completely useless to us, since the benefits are small (especially now that we're at peace) and it's going to expire soon anyway. SO, if we see that Feudalism is available... we need to get it before we complete the Great Library and swap to Sun Tzu! Sun Tzu is much more useful to us than the Library, even if we are militaristic and get cheap barracks -- it will allow us to save maintenance of barracks in every city, but more importantly, every city on our continent (i.e. on this map, probably every city period) we capture will automatically have a barracks in it, without our having to quell resisters and rush one! This makes a huge difference in how fast we can heal our troops up and keep offensives going. If we needed to, we could also use Sun Tzu as a placeholder for Sistine, but we have enough native lux sources that Sistine should not be an issue.
We do not want the Library, we want Sun Tzu's. So, we need to get Feudalism. PERIOD. Of course, we want to get it for the best possible price, and we may need to broker a bit to get it for as little net cost as possible, but we must get it before we complete the Library.
Also, if Feudalism is available, then Chivalry is right around the corner. If we want to have an army to upgrade, we have to start building horses NOW. Forget aqueducts for the moment; this takes priority. The only thing more important than building horses right now is building granaries and markets in cities that can grow to 12 without an aqueduct and will have happiness problems otherwise; all of our 1st- and 2nd- ring cities should be focussing on one of those two priorities. Our colonies like Tatung and Tientsin that are too remote to have decent production can continue building workers/settlers.
Mystery13
Prince
Ok, seems simple enough. Get Fuedalism and build lots of upgradeable horsies. Will do...
Mystery13
Prince
Ok, I'm done with my turns and will post tomorrow. I do have a question for Zed that can't wait. I like the science at zero, buy at last civ prices gambit. However, we seem to be in an interesting scenario. All civs are warring. Only Babylon has a tech that we don't and they had it my entire 10 turns. We bought Feudalism at insane prices and buying Monotheism from Babylon would really hurt. In this situation, might we be better off trying to jump ahead of all the warring civs?
