Zohran Mamdani

[GenMarshall]

A roadmap to beat Trump? How rise of Zohran Mamdani is dividing Democrats

Many believe Mamdani’s triumph shows it is time for national party to evolve but others say his brand of politics will not appeal in key battlegrounds

www.theguardian.com

Mamdani is latest breakthrough against establishment Dems and, more generally, the latest populist breakthrough. There has been some speculation that his campaign illustrates a model to defeat Trump. Thoughts?

I’m very much skeptical on Mamdani’s win in the Democratic Primary for Mayor of NYC. I’d perfer a candidate that’s more of a social democrat with a reformist approach than a revolutionary socialist with an accelorationist (and likely lead to becoming a red fascist) approach.

It’s also cases like this that make me wish there was a multiparty system in the US and an actual viable SocDem party, rather than a huge big tent party like the Democratic Party.

 

[danjuno]

I’d perfer a candidate that’s more of a social democrat with a reformist approach than a revolutionary socialist with an accelorationist (and likely lead to becoming a red fascist) approach.

???

Electoral college voters.

Rewording it doesn't make it less irrelevant.

 

[Birdjaguar]

Moderator Action: Mamdani is the subject of this thread.

 

[danjuno]

Indeed.

To reiterate, I'm baffled about how opening 5 municipal grocery stories is considered radical. Operating basic necessities as a public utility is well within the bounds of social democracy.

 

[EnglishEdward]

In the US social democracy is considered radical ?

 

[amadeus]

To reiterate, I'm baffled about how opening 5 municipal grocery stories is considered radical. Operating basic necessities as a public utility is well within the bounds of social democracy.

For the most part, the government is not a retailer. It’s not the same as things, I think the term is natural monopoly, like power lines or roads where it would be totally impractical to have competition.

Grocery stores are not even that high up in terms of profit margins, so even if a municipally-run store could compete at cost without requiring public subsidy, the savings to the end customer would be pretty minimal.

 

[Klaus Hergersheimer]

For the most part, the government is not a retailer. It’s not the same as things, I think the term is natural monopoly, like power lines or roads where it would be totally impractical to have competition.

Grocery stores are not even that high up in terms of profit margins, so even if a municipally-run store could compete at cost without requiring public subsidy, the savings to the end customer would be pretty minimal.

The distinction is one between "public goods" and subsidies, but otherwise, yes.

 

[danjuno]

For the most part, the government is not a retailer. It’s not the same as things, I think the term is natural monopoly, like power lines or roads where it would be totally impractical to have competition.

Grocery stores are not even that high up in terms of profit margins, so even if a municipally-run store could compete at cost without requiring public subsidy, the savings to the end customer would be pretty minimal.

I feel like it's a bit more complex. Plenty of public services we take for granted now used to be unquestionably the domain of private capital.

There are also industries that are public in one jurisdiction, private in another, and mixed in yet another. There are even municipal grocery stores in Kansas. North Dakota and some of the territories have public banks.

In the US social democracy is considered radical ?

GenMarshall dinstinguished the two in the post, so I'm asking them their reasoning for categorizing Mamdani as one and not the other.

 

[Arwon]

Zohran is extremely vulnerable to the old woke takedown. Internal strife of the left, indeed.

This whole thing was surfaced by a nazi hacker lol

For the most part, the government is not a retailer. It’s not the same as things, I think the term is natural monopoly, like power lines or roads where it would be totally impractical to have competition.

Grocery stores are not even that high up in terms of profit margins, so even if a municipally-run store could compete at cost without requiring public subsidy, the savings to the end customer would be pretty minimal.

When my family lived in the US we did most of our grocery shopping at an American government-run store:

 

[Voidwalkin]

This whole thing was surfaced by a nazi hacker lol

Idk why it matters now. If a nazi hacker surfaced the long rumored infamous Trump tape from the Russian hotel nobody unsympathetic to Trump would care and nobody unsympathetic to Mamdani will now.

 

[Arwon]

Nah champ you're trying to present the publishing of this claim as an example leftist infighting. When the whole thing came from a nazi and has seemingly had no impact on anyone else, except concern trolling right wingers who don't actually understand anything.

 

[GenMarshall]

To reiterate, I'm baffled about how opening 5 municipal grocery stories is considered radical. Operating basic necessities as a public utility is well within the bounds of social democracy.

I don't consider operating five city-owned grocery stores to be within the realm of being radical. It's not to the same level in of a hostile take over of Stop & Shop, Big Y, or Mom & Pop's Corner Grocery Store in a Soviet-Esque command economy style to abolish private property by force. At most, It's a risky business move that's more than likely to fail and leave the city in financial struggles, just to cover the overhead costs of the grocery store infrastructure and employees (that's not including the construction/referbishing cost) as well as the cost of stocking on inventory all while trying to maintain a net zero profit. It happened in Erie, Kansas where the city ended up having to off hand a grocery store they've operated for a couple of years to a private company because of the City of Erie's financial struggles. Baldwin, Florida once had a town-owned grocery store, which only lasted for five years when it effected the town's finances.

Also, Mamdani is a Democratic Socialist, not a Social Democrat.

 

[danjuno]

I don't consider operating five city-owned grocery stores to be within the realm of being radical. It's not to the same level in of a hostile take over of Stop & Shop, Big Y, or Mom & Pop's Corner Grocery Store in a Soviet-Esque command economy style to abolish private property by force. At most, It's a risky business move that's more than likely to fail and leave the city in financial struggles, just to cover the overhead costs of the grocery store infrastructure and employees (that's not including the construction/referbishing cost) as well as the cost of stocking on inventory all while trying to maintain a net zero profit. It happened in Erie, Kansas where the city ended up having to off hand a grocery store they've operated for a couple of years to a private company because of the City of Erie's financial struggles. Baldwin, Florida once had a town-owned grocery store, which only lasted for five years when it effected the town's finances.

Also, Mamdani is a Democratic Socialist, not a Social Democrat.

Indeed, I would expect smaller communities to have some difficulty, but would 5 stores really be any more than a blip in the budget of the US's largest city?

 

[Voidwalkin]

Nah champ you're trying to present the publishing of this claim as an example leftist infighting. When the whole thing came from a nazi and has seemingly had no impact on anyone else, except concern trolling right wingers who don't actually understand anything.

*sigh*

How's the left doing these days in America? Further ahead or further behind on the traditional measuring sticks like unionization, healthcare, income inequality?

It is fortunate Mamdani is more concerned with the opinions of weakly-left and social libs than you are, as well as with conservatives. He at least understands you aren't winning **** all with the opinions of the progressive islanders, especially not nationally.

 

[Arwon]

*sigh*

How's the left doing these days in America? Further ahead or further behind on the traditional measuring sticks like unionization, healthcare, income inequality?

It is fortunate Mamdani is more concerned with the opinions of weakly-left and social libs than you are, as well as with conservatives. He at least understands you aren't winning **** all with the opinions of the progressive islanders, especially not nationally.

You appear to have mistaken me for someone else with different opinions here mate. You don't need to convince me that the US is rubbish and becoming worse.

The US barely has any electoral left wing, the centrist opposition are feckless and incompetent and the system is so constrained, ethnically tilted and dysfunctional that it can't save itself from its current descent into right wing autocracy. There's a non-zero chance this guy gets black bagged before he can ever become mayor. Or afterwards.

None of which has anything to do with your claim that this particular nonsense represents an example of left wing infighting. It's a nazi spruiking a fully spurious attack on a guy with a complicated colonial heritage not fitting weird American race tickboxes, which seemingly nobody relevant is actually buying into as an issue.

 

[Voidwalkin]

You appear to have mistaken me for someone else with different opinions here mate.

The US barely has any electoral left wing, the centrist opposition are feckless and incompetent and the system is so constrained, ethnically tilted and dysfunctional that it can't save itself from its current descent into right wing autocracy. There's a non-zero chance this guy gets black bagged before he can ever become mayor lol. Or afterwards.

Dog, I know these things.

That's kind of why this part here

None of which has anything to do with your claim that this particular nonsense represents an example of left wing infighting. It's a nazi spruiking a fully spurious attack on a guy with a complicated colonial heritage not fitting weird American race tickboxes, which seemingly nobody relevant is actually buying into as an issue

Is not relevant.

The left is in a position from which it must expand. It cannot go "oh its a non issue" while libs find it silently distasteful, and conservatives are sure to mock it. Not simply that he seemingly didn't exactly wholly represent himself as you might expect, but because they do not like the system of identity checkboxes to begin with. There is loss of moral authority from it here, while the people known for "insisting we raise the standards of ethical behavior" handwave it away.

The consensus progressive opinion is "oh well idk I can overlook it" and I'm not actually dissimilar in personal opinion. But I'm not saying it's no problem because, let me tell you, the opinion of progressives barely matters nationally, and the guy just lost some persuasive power.

 

[Arwon]

At this point I think I have no idea what you're trying to argue here. You've acknowledged that it's meaningless, but then, it's bad anyway because people who won't vote for the guy and already want to deport him think it's meaningful?

These goons will always invent something to be mad about, the fact that all they've found is stupid nonsense like this and stuff like complaining about "eating with his hands" would seem to be a pretty good sign about this dude's credentials. At least until Steve Miller has him disappeared.

 

[Voidwalkin]

At this point I think I have no idea what you're trying to argue here. You've acknowledged that it's meaningless, but then, it's bad anyway because people who won't vote for the guy and already want to deport him think it's meaningful?

These goons will always invent something to be mad about, the fact that all they've found is stupid nonsense like this and stuff like complaining about "eating with his hands" would seem to be a pretty good sign about this dude's credentials. At least until Steve Miller has him disappeared.

If I say there is infighting on the left and mention social liberals, old leftists and general sympathizers don't love identity checkboxes, there is no American left, such people can be written off

If I say progressives are insufficient to win an election, this is ignored, with a claim they're the only relevant group, all others written off

It's pretty circular. It should just be acknowledged that this is suboptimal rather than reflexive defenses. Yes I am aware the progressive opinion is nbd but that doesn't really make a bit of difference to anything grander than NYC, in which you can't just write every other opinion off

You've acknowledged that it's meaningless, but then, it's bad anyway because people who won't vote for the guy and already want to deport him think it's meaningful?

Ultimately, that's the most important part of this.

A: moderate but still sympathetic voters will have a morale diminishing

B: more importantly, those people, the ones that want to deport him, are...

...the ones he'd need to go far, so yeah, it is actually quite fudging critical he be able to persuade them. Writing whole demos off is looking like an increasingly, uh, horrible fudging decision, and starts to make a dude wonder if politics is simply moral expression, in which winning or real change are secondary...oh, how bougie

 

[Arwon]

I'm sorry I'm really struggling to parse what you're saying here?

You really don't have to take every idiotic attack article seriously, and you need to understand that there will always be attack articles from hostile press on absolutely anyone who even has the barest hint of vague leftiness. There'll always be something that gets pumped up.

And you shouldn't just assume they're all going to have impact, because most, uh, don't. This bloke faced a tonne of hostile press portraying him as a racist terrorist and such, and managed to, across the campaign, win over and persuade a lot of voters that didn't support him at the start, despite all those attacks. That's a decent track record to start with, assuming he doesn't get arrested and deported for being Brown with Opinions.

 

[Voidwalkin]

I'm sorry I'm really struggling to parse what you're saying here?

Really? OK.

The basic goal of any progressive movement in America is ultimately to create greater equality, particularly economically; Mamdani no exception, given tax policies.

This requires a great deal of public trust. Problem: misrepresenting your identity diminishes said trust amongst populations you must get to support you. Those already sympathetic won't care(witness the nbd'ing of the usual suspects)

Those whose sympathy you need to gain will be wary. They are likely already on edge, given that the progressive movement which staffs the Mamdani campaign tends(like most progressive) to use terms from a rejected and despised ideological framework like 'whiteness'.

Is it a major strike? No, like I already said. But these strikes really cannot keep piling up. He will be rejected if his material policies are thought to come alongside the more controversial social ones(particularly if he is thought to play idpol insincerely)