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Éa, The Ageless and the Divine (phase 2, alpha)

Discussion in 'Éa Fantasy Mod Project' started by Pazyryk, Dec 21, 2012.

  1. Vinnz

    Vinnz Chieftain

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2013
    Messages:
    56
    I played a game to have a game report to add. Here it is:
    Year 0:
    Settings : prince, human, continents, standard size, standard speed
    Starting spot: Sheep+horse in first circle, can see stones marble and cow in 2nd circle, near river, no sea, not much forest, no jungle => planning animal ressource focus (horse as main army);

    at Year 100:
    Got the Fir Bolg naming condition on turn 35 (1p1g on pastures)
    +8 science, -20% modifier; Researched Techs (in this order): animal husbandry, domestication, horseback riding and mining (masonry in 1 turn)
    culture 1.75/2(+0.02); Researched policy: agrarianism opener
    2 GP alive warrior and merchant (0.8% popup).
    484(+1) gold
    4 horse ressources (2 used)

    2 cities:
    capital Fir Bolg:
    pop=5, (36-25)f35p16g6.4s2c,
    buildings: Abattoir, Knackery, Monument, Smokehouse, Stable, Tannery
    with in first circle: 1 improved horse on grassland with river (8f8p1g), 1 improved sheep on hill with river (8f4p2g)
    in second circle :
    1 improved horse on grassland with river (8f8p1g), 1 unimproved cow on marsh (6f4p), 1 unimproved marble (2p1c), [+1 unimproved and unexploited stone (4p)]

    village Tronueyr (founded year 70)
    pop=3, (14-15)f8p6g2.4s1c.
    buildings: 1 monument
    in first circle: 1 improved sheep 5f2p2g, 1 unimproved crab (5f), 1 mine on hill and forest (2p1g)

    Neighbours:
    Sidhe (Aes Dana) seems burried in forest (no improvements, only 1 city, pop=3, but has Voluspa and Tome of tomes). Not much known about other neighbours.
    Civs scores from diplo screen: Aes dana (no religion) 56, Kaza (Azzandar.) 95, Nezeliba (no religion) 56, The Hod (Azzandar.) 54, Nemedia 48, (My score 89 but I don't know how it's calculated)

    Remarks:
    - should have leather from tannery (not yet in game ?).
    - going neither science nor culture gives me a high production city rather quickly : however, I don't have any building with specialist slot, no useful GP (a merchant but not much use without the currency tech, and a warrior).
    A bit stuck for now: cannot build new cities because of lack of gold and technologies to exploit other ressources available. No more buildings to build in capital.No excess gold to increase my army.

    Plan for next turns:
    will improve culture generation from quarries (researched next turn), and will research writing afterwards, will build library to improve science generation (not sure what to resarch afterwards), will use my horsemen to scout further and to keep my neighborhood clear from my barbarians. Possibly will try to do quests for city states. ]

    Also, here's a diary-style log of this game
    Spoiler :
    start : prince, human, continents, standard size, standard speed
    Yr 0: build village. Sheep, horse, in first circle, can see stones marble and cow in 2nd circle, near river, no sea, not much forest, no jungle => planning animal ressource focus (horse as main army); animal husbandry (free), researching domestication, queuing worker in my city
    Yr 1 - 15: exploring with warriors. Zanzibar city state. Sidhe neighbour. coast. Barbarian camp localised.
    Yr 16: workers ready (will improve horse the sheep); bring back warrior to protect workers if needed. Queuing monument.
    Yr 23: Horse pasture finished. barbarians (1unit) approaching.
    Yr 26: barbarians killed
    Yr 27: can see another human warrior. finished monument, queuing chariots.
    Yr 29: another human warrior. Btw: my village is size 3, using sheep and horse ressource, total 14f9p10g5s2c
    Yr 33: another barbarian approaching
    Yr 34: popup Aes dana civ
    Yr 35: domestication researched, got my name, Fir Bolg. total 14f11p12g5s2c. Queuing horseback riding. Buying a tile w horse ressource, to have it ready for next growth.
    Yr 36: popups: Hod (+ religion founded) and Kaza.
    Yr 38: my first great person: Atla warrior, will be resident until building of my chariot unit.
    Yr 42: chariot built, sending it with the warrior unit to the barb camp the warrior gp follows. queuing knackery
    Yr 43: popup: Mor
    Yr 47: popup: Nezeliba
    Yr 49: popup: Nemedia
    Yr 54: choosing policy agrarianism (for the +1f opener)
    Yr 56: knackery built. total 21f21p14g6s2c (pop = 3). Queing settlers (planning to buid a city on coast, near sheep and crab ressource)
    Yr 58: brabarian camp conquered. Need to finish off the barbarian units.
    Yr 63: last barbarian killed off. Horseback riding researched (upgrading chariot to horseman). Queuing mining (and planning masonry)
    Yr 64: GP spawns: Halfdan merchant. set to trade in capital.
    Yr 66: Settlers built. Queuing stable.
    Yr 67: golden age starts. capital pop = 4, the last citizen works an unimproved cows on marsh plot (the knackery bonus applies here)
    Yr 70:2nd city (tronueyr) founded, queuing monument.
    Yr 73: capital built stable. queuing tannery.
    Yr 75-80: trade route between my cities, and pasture on sheep at Tronueyr. Mining researched (no ressources near my lands), queing masonry. Tannery built, queuing horseman. end of golden age
    Yr 85: Horseman built, queuing abattoir
    Yr 87: Atla dies.
    Yr 90: barbarians on my land.
    Yr 92: barbarians killed, one horse tile pillaged, repairing.
    Yr 94: Tronueyr finishes monument, queuing smokehouse
    Yr 95: Capital abattoir built. nothing left to build... queing settler.
    Yr 100: new GP Hjalmar warrior.
     
  2. Loffas

    Loffas Warlord

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2012
    Messages:
    146
    Location:
    Örebro, Sweden
    Hi, i tried to get this mod working.
    It seems that are some dependeries. Got the dlc and the civ game updated. But it sais something about a mod that are needed. "Depends on .......long code....version 1-100"
    Can it bee so that i am missing a mod?
    Any suggestens, are psyked to test this mod :)
    Br Loffas
     
  3. Pazyryk

    Pazyryk Deity

    Joined:
    Jun 13, 2008
    Messages:
    3,584
    @Loffas, the only dependencies are for Mongolia (the free DLC that everyone should have), Gods & Kings, and the Éa Media Pack. You have to click the Media Pack circle before the actual Éa mod circle in the mods screen.

    Yes, same exact problem. I won't have a hotfix for this, although you could copy Vinzz's fix above to play past this. I'll have a real fix in v6. (this will happen in many but not all v5 games if I understand the problem correctly; depends on what civ names the AI picks up)

    I believe as things are that this will give you Divine Favor if you are Azzandarayasna and otherwise mana. Both are useless without spellcasters, which (in phase 2) means Devout GPs only (Druid, Priest, Paladin and their fallen counterparts). Phase 3 will have additional Thaumaturge subclasses that only cast arcane spells. Also, I have my own city states planned, just not added yet. Some are Pantheistic and give mana only, others are Theistic and give divine favor only. So not all city states will be useful to all civs (except for the resources of course).

    Keep in mind that Agrarianism is exclusive with Pantheism. If you play agrarian Sidhe, you are definitely playing against "type". There are some built in disadvantages, such as the slower growth rate and Living Terrain near your start has initial strength (all set to 0 to radius 3 for Man). However, the specific conditions of your start location may easily override these factors and make Agrarian optimal even for Sidhe, or maybe you like to play against type even at a disadvantage.

    Only Man can open Theism and found Azzandarayasna (for lore reasons). And with Agrarianism, you've locked yourself out of Pantheism. So... you won't be founding any religions in this game. You could still get one from another civ by pressure, conversion or conquest of other cities. Hopefully, if I get the balance right, players will consider going non-religious as a good option in some games.

    Just as a note, the Aŋra religion can be founded by any Devout (even a Druid) if you have the Maleficium tech, meaning that it is possible for Sídhe to pursue this dark route in addition to Pantheistic religions/cults. (But you've already locked yourself out of Pantheism so this is not available to you.)

    Thanks! This is exactly what I need to make some headway on balance and pacing (saves me the 30 hrs of playing a game myself).

    At a glance, I'd say you should have picked up Currency sometime soon after naming. It's probably a "must have" tech unless you are planning a game with few cities and a small army. (Note: I have considered making Warriors maintenance free so that a swarm-of-low-quality-troops approach to warfare is viable.) Leather is not in yet, nor Ale or Spirits (will be in v6). I'll look over the rest in more detail...
     
  4. Pazyryk

    Pazyryk Deity

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    I'm reworking the "overgrown/flooded" improvement system a little. In the current system, when a forest, jungle or marsh spreads to an improved plot (anything other than a camp) the effect of the improvement is cancelled and you get the base resource yield only. I want to make it a little less harsh (but still negative) for players. But more importantly, the AI isn't dealing with the current rules very well and it's hard to figure out how to make it do so. So, new rules:
    • Forest, jungle, marsh cause -1f, -1p, -1g on a plot (remember that an unimproved, unresourced plot is 0 anyway)
    • Camp improvement gives +1f, +1p, +1g on forest, jungle, marsh (to exactly offset above) in addition to its normal +2f1p.
    • Wildlands "improvement" offsets penalty (as above), in addition to its own benefit.
    So, for example, if you have sugar with plantation it is 3f4g1c when clear or 2f3g1c when flooded or overgrown. A farm on wheat should be 8f when clear (with Agrarianism) or 7f when flooded or overgrown. A camp on a resource will have exactly the same yield regardless of feature. There is a little bit of a bad side effect: A deer on a forest without camp will be 3f to start and 4f1p if slashed/burned. Perhaps I should give an extra +1f for camp on forest or jungle to discourage removing features on these "wildlife habitat" plots.
     
  5. Pazyryk

    Pazyryk Deity

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    Some reworking coming to water plots in v6. I've had this idea for a while but didn't implement due to AI problems. But I have that solved now. New mechanics:
    • Normal city border expansion no longer spreads onto water plots, not even lakes or coastal. Also, you don't own water plots even if adjacent to your city when it is founded.
    • Fishing Boats or Whaling Boats "claim" the single resource plot for the city at the same time they improve it.
    • Floating Garden is similar to above for lake plots, claiming them at the same time they are improved (you don't even need to be adjacent).
    • Fishing/Whaling Boats can act beyond 3-plot radius from your city with naval techs: Sailing (out to 4-plot radius); Ship Building (7); Navigation (14); Whaling (whales only at any range); Astronomy (required to access any resource in or across Ocean if they are outside your city's 3-plot radius)
    • Improved sea resources contribute something (2f each?) via Harbor, Port, Whalery and maybe other buildings.
    • A city within 3 plots of a water resource that is "remotely owned" by another civ (that is, they are >3 plots distant) can claim the resource with their own fishing/whaling boat. But if at 4 plots the other civ can keep it forever.
    • Perhaps Cult of Ægir cities will violate the first rule and have borders spreading over sea plots, and Cult of Pure Waters over lakes.

    There is a bit of a "cheat" for AI. What happens is that the plot is claimed and improved the instant the fishing/whaling boat is built. The unit is only available to build if there is currently a water resource in range (and a high "flavor" value ensures that the AI builds it quickly). This solves AI for my mod change but also solves the problem that the base Civ5 AI is really bad at improving water resources anyway.

    One possibility I'm considering is applying the AI system above to the human player. Several advantages: 1) a little bit less work for me, 2) it's no longer an AI cheat so the playing field is exactly even, and 3) you could improve those occasional water resources that are unreachable, for example when they are ice-locked. You also wouldn't have to drive the boat to the resource anymore. Would folks miss that?
     
  6. Loffas

    Loffas Warlord

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2012
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    146
    Location:
    Örebro, Sweden
    @Pazyryk.
    Oh, I thought the media file was optional. Allright then I will get that one and try again.
    Thanks!
    /Loffas
     
  7. Vinnz

    Vinnz Chieftain

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2013
    Messages:
    56
    I continued the game started in my post above (which stopped at year 100). Hope the following report will be helpful.

    Since last report, I could progress in culture (new yields from marble and stone) and science (boost after researching writing and building library ). Money problem solved with marketplace.
    However, still not much to build in my high production capital (which ended mostly buying/selling walls every 5 turns)

    General situation at year 150 :
    10 science (-57% misc modifiers)(Animal husb, domestication, Horse riding, mining, masonry, writing, currency, fishing, mathematics) ; 625gold (+18); 6 happy; 3.9/4(+0.03) policies (learned agrarianism, aristocracy, feudalism); 2GP alive (sage+ warrior), +4,6%;4 horses 2 used.
    Units: 2horse riders, 1 warrior, 2 workers
    religion: every city on my continent are azzandarayasna
    Cities:
    Fir Bolg
    pop= 7; (36-35)f40p34g7.52s8c;
    Buildings: Library (with scribe); marketplace (with trader); Abattoir; Knackery; Monument;Smokehouse;Stable;Stone works; Tannery; Walls (currently building: workshop)
    Resources: centre 4f1P7g, first circle: improved sheep 8f4p3g, improved horse 8f8p2g; 2nd circle: improved horse 8f8p2g, unimproved cow on marsh 6f4p1g, improved marble 5p1g4c, Improved stone *2 (not exploited)
    Tronueyr (founded yr70)
    pop=4; (28-20)f8p10g1.72s2c
    Buildings:marketplace (no specialist), monument, smokehouse (currently building library)
    Resources: centre:4f1p; first circle: mine on, hill with forest 2p1g, sheep 6f2p3g, crab 8f1g; second circle 8f1g; third circle elephant (not exploited)
    Rin (founded yr109)
    pop=3; (17-15)f8p5g1.29s1c
    Buildings: monument (currently building smokehouse)
    centre 4f1p; first circle: improved sheep 5f2p2g, unimproved deer 4f1p, unimproved
    Resources: deer 4f1p, 2nd circle: elephant (not exploited), fish (not exploited)

    After Year 150, one of the AI converted to Aŋra (with ŋ letter not displaying properly in game).
    And then an error report appeared at Yr 156, telling me to post the log (added on this post). Stopping game here

    turn by turn log for yr 100 to yr 156:
    Spoiler :
    Yr 101: masonry researched, queuing writing. Settler produced, sending it to build a city near 2 deers and 1 sheep. Queuing walls
    Yr 105: Azzandara Spreads to Fir Bolg. Fighting barbarians for rio de janeiro
    Yr 106: Rin founded, queuing monument. Fir Bolg builds walls queuing workers (Rin will need them)
    Yr 109: Fir bolg builds workers (sending them towards Rin), queuing stone works.
    Yr 112: Writing researched, Queuing currency. Can choose policy:aristocracy (1G/pop in capital)
    Yr 113: Fir bolg builds stoneworks, queuing library.
    Yr 114: Halfsdan dead
    Yr 117: Fir Bolg builds Library (adding manually 1 sage), selling and queuing walls
    Yr 121: currency researched, queuing fishing.
    Yr 122: Fir Bolg builds walls, queuing market
    Yr 124: tronueyr builds smokehouse, queuing market
    Yr 126: Fir Bolg builds market (adding a specialist), selling and queuing walls
    Yr 127: new policy, Feudalism (-33% unhappy from pop)
    Yr 130: fishing researched, queuing mathematics; Rin builds monument, queuing smokehouse.
    Yr 131: Harbarth sage born. Take Leadership.then research (taking scholarship upgarde). selling and queuing walls
    Yr 134: Sage Harbarth takes scholarship II, then build Tome of Equus.
    Yr 136: selling and queuing walls. By the way, it seems that my 3 neighbours have a 3 or 4 pop capital, and a 1 pop village.
    Yr 141: selling and queuing walls.
    Yr 143: Maths researched. queuing chemistry (to reveal naphta or powder resources if any)
    Yr 146: walls finished, queuing workshop in Fir Bolg
    Yr 147: Tronueyr builds market, queuing library
    Yr 151: workshop finished in Fir Bolg, selling and queuing walls. Moving the trader specialist to smith (trying to get points for engineer)
    Yr 152: Sidhe aes dana suggests friendship, accepted.
    Yr 153: new policy: Guilds
    Yr 154: Harbarth scholarship III.
    Yr 155: Angra founded in Thol (by The Hod civ), walls built in Fir Bolg, queuing smith guild
    Yr 156: Error popup, see Lua


    Remarks (in no particular order):
    - The AI could use the found religion prophecies (Azzandarayasna and Aŋra founded)
    - Some of the animal husbandry lines techs apply also to the hunted resources (deer), providing help to settle a new city
    - Despite ignoring science culture and money early, it was not difficult to come back in these areas
    - My high production city ran out of stuff to build
    - I was lucky with barbarians, who were rather quiet
    - My neighbours did correctly, but none seems to be really good (however difficult to check).
    - No obvious problems in yields calculation (however did not check everything)

    I'll try next a game on the same map, from a save at year 0, with a totally different orientation.
     
  8. Loffas

    Loffas Warlord

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2012
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    146
    Location:
    Örebro, Sweden
    Hi, I got the game started and everything seems to work fine. When I get a great person(engienneer or scientist, tried twice) and try to use one of the abbilities. Join city or hurry production the whole computer freezes. The leaderhip abbilitie and walking around works fine. Don´t know if this is common problem or not.
    /Loffas
     
  9. Pazyryk

    Pazyryk Deity

    Joined:
    Jun 13, 2008
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    @Loffas, Haven't heard that from others. Make sure you are not using any other mods. Post your Lua logs and maybe I can see what is happening.

    @Vinnz,
    Tech and policy progress seem OK for your non-tech/non-culture focus. Growing fast will give you a tech boost early (getting you to 10 or so quickly), but you're going to top out pretty soon (so think about what "teir 4" tech you want).

    The most serious problem, of course, is running out of things to build. Just out of curiosity, which of the (now hypothetical) victory conditions would you be pursuing in this game? If Conquest, you always need more units, even if only warriors. For Subduer, you also need to expand, probably necessitating both settlers and military. For Protector, you would need military to take out the Aŋra civ (if you have found them). The other two conditions don't seem to be fitting. I guess my question is: would lack of things to build be a problem if you were actually perusing a goal of some sort?

    Still, I may need to bring back the yield conversion processes (though I am loath to do that). There will be some more buildings but I can only add so many. Any other suggestions are welcome.

    Edit: Looking at this again, it seems like you were able to build too many buildings for turn 150 (even considering your production focus). Perhaps building costs need to be bumped up quite a bit.
     
  10. Vinnz

    Vinnz Chieftain

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2013
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    I agree, my tech and policy growth seems ok (slow while not caring about it, and then a boost when trying to concentrate on them).

    Sure, I wasn't strictly focusing on a victory condition (and turn 150 is still far from end of game). I was more on a "gameplay plan": getting the most out of the lands around my capital city, developing a core of strong cities (with some emphasis on checking how all of this works) and then going for one of the military victories . I was researching chemistry to gain access to powder/naphta if any nearby, and was planning to research the horse warriors tech after finishing the tome of Equus to build equites. I was expecting that thanks to high production, I would be able to build an army quickly enough when needed (Though I would probably be unfit to take strong cities, and gaining access to timber for catapult might be necessary).
    I felt that I wasn't ready to wage wars (lack of techs to take advantage of resources on my neighbours lands, science and culture penalty if I managed to expand quickly , and not strong enough to roll over my enemies until total victory). OK, I didn't try, so that might be wrong...
    By the way, I think a "continents" map should be avoided since most of the civs will never be allowed to cross oceans by design (they need to focus their research on other techs at first).

    For me, the problem was that I was able to have such a high production city before the end game (about 35p at year 100, with 5pop; and I was expecting to be able to reach 50 at year 160 with the smiths guild up). With all the bonus, some tiles become very productive quickly (ie my horses were 8f8p2g).
    Some suggestions:
    - make it more difficult to have such high yields (eg: reduce the production bonus of knackery, or push the building one tier up, or add some policies conditions to reach the full yields)
    - punish me for having forgotten science and culture early on (cannot see how)
    - add some cap (maybe with game mechanics wasting it to "ineffiency" if the global science or culture level is low) to production (by cities, or by tile)

    Also: I'm possibly not the kind of player you need for these tests. Nowadays, I am not interested that much in the victory by itself (though I will try to succeed in a way) than in the "historical" experience. As an example in ffh2, I could enjoy just being able to survive the successive armageddon events, even if I had no chance to actually win some wars afterwards.
     
  11. Pazyryk

    Pazyryk Deity

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    Actually, that is exactly what motivates this mod. I almost never finish a base Civ game or even FFH. The interest for me is "roleplaying" a civ type, which usually only lasts until the map is fully explored or the tech tree is fully discovered.

    So, one of the goals I have is to make the game continually playable to any length, without having all the civs "blend" to the same thing over time. Specialization should be the endpoint, rather than the starting point as I think it is in FFH. I think the tech/policy system basically works for this (still needs tweaks of course). But there is something fundamental that needs to be done with production. I have a bunch of small fixes in mind, but I can't quite get my head around a real solution.
     
  12. Calavente

    Calavente Richard's voice

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    2,786
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    France
    I'll just chime in with a philosophical question....
    which arise with your previous comment about story-playing.

    the interest of FFH is
    1) to play very different civs
    2) magic
    3) different religions
    4) environnement : to adapt specialized civs to different environnement, more or less compatible with the civ specialization. (vanilla civ mostly has that one, + leaders traits)
    5) unit focus (depends a bit on civ, religion and terrain)


    Ea (at the moment) works mainly get 2 aspects:
    2-3 are fused together as two aspects of a same thing.
    1-4-5 are fused : -> you create different civs, kinda specialized, but your civ specialization is dictated by your immediate surrounding, and unit choice will be hugely impacted by your name, so by your terrain.
    It means that normally, your specialization is the best adapted to the environnement.

    thus you have two parameters for replayability:
    1) environnement that leads to civ names
    2) choice of religious/magical path, which is further limited as you can't easily change from one to the other.. you are quickly commited iirc.

    wouldn't there be a reduction of replayability (theorically at least) ?

    or are there further means, in v0.3, v0.5 or v0.9 that you aim to introduce to increase replayability ?

    (I fear that most Elephant-civ / pantheisme games will feel the same.. as you'll only go elephant if you get that elephant ressource (no need to search for the ressource, you wouldn't have had the name without it), and then your army will be elephants.)

    (Comparatively Empy-Elohim will lead to very different games due to ease to change religion before using Empy + very different terrains that will dictate if you get mainly horses or mainly melee, or mainly religious if you have niether copper nor horses...etc).

    or maybe I'm wrong, and that's just an impression that comes when only reading and not playing.
     
  13. Pazyryk

    Pazyryk Deity

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    In phase 3 I'll be developing the arcane side and the Thaumaturge class. Right now, you have two GP subclasses that are dual-class Devout/Thaumaturge: Druids and Fallen Priests. Phase 3 will have a whole bunch of "pure" Thaumaturge subclasses. Also, there will ultimately be two ways to approach the Destroyer Victory: one religious focusing on Aŋra (with Priests and Eidolons) and the other pure arcane (with Sorcerers and Necromancers) without necessarily having any religion at all. Or you could split the difference and have a little of both. On the less evil side, Pantheism is sort of dual religious/arcane by nature (with the Druid class) but there will be an Arcana policy branch and many techs downstream of Thaumaturgy that support a more pure arcane aproach (with Witches, Wizards on the not-necessarily-good-or-evil side; and Sorcerers and Necromancers on the probably-bad-news side).

    It's true that environment is very tied up with Civ specialization. But there are almost always >1 specialization that is optimal for a particular environment. For example, many horses/cows/sheep could lead to Ikkos (pure militeristic), Hippus (mercenary) or Fir Bolg (pastoralist). More civs can always be added where this is not the case. And these civs could go religions or not (by choice or perhaps imposed from outside), or have slavery or not, etc. And 3 of the 5 victory conditions (plus the 2 I haven't revealed) would be very fitting for any of these civs.

    In FFH, you start out very specialized and really (contrary to my statement above) stay specialized through the game. However, I did feel that the standard Civ approach to teching did lessen specialization over time. Even Doviello were going for a very high tech (Machinery) and I certainly played Clan of Embers to get high level techs. The more techs everyone had, the more similar the play. My Clan cities built universities, banks, etc., just like any other civ. I think the tech approach in Éa (where you can only explore part of the tree in any game) will add a lot to replayability.

    Lots of stuff coming in future phases. Now, if I can only wrap up phase 2 and finish off a few of the missing policies, resources, etc...
     
  14. Sezneg

    Sezneg Warlord

    Joined:
    Apr 6, 2009
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    149
    Right now, production comes from tile yields for everyone.

    Perhaps what you're looking for is that how you specialize in the tech/policy trees should determine how you get production.

    Lower the base tile yields, pantheists can increase them through policy advancement.

    Agrarian civs will rely on techs to increase their production, or the slavery policy tree.

    The slavery policy tree grants some production based on population (would need some drawbacks).

    Add more buildings that add production, some with various drawbacks.

    So you have to pick how you access production through your planning.

    Just some vague brainstorming.
     
  15. Pazyryk

    Pazyryk Deity

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    3,584
    A lot of that is already in: Slavery has several things to boost production, as does Pantheism. And Ag gets you Smith slots and the growth to fill them. You may not have noticed, but I also give 1p for each pop point (on top of the normal 1s). I do this because it is very easy to have a city with no production plots nearby.

    I think what we are in for is a general across-the-board increase, maybe as much as 2x. However, I don't want to make it much harder to get your 1st or 2nd warriors unit. I think what I'll do there is make them a true "spam" unit. Same cost as now, but reduced strength from 7 to 5. And no maintenance cost. So these will always be there no matter what your tech situation. But I don't want you to often be in the situation where this is the only thing you can build...hence the across the board increases.
     
  16. Vinnz

    Vinnz Chieftain

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2013
    Messages:
    56
    As announced, here's report of a game on the same map as my previous post, but with a different strategy (previous one was along the animal husbandry line, and seemed to have an excess of production quickly).
    This time, will go to a culture strategy:
    tradition branch. peaceful. reasonably wide tech-wise at first, then focus towards the culture/science techs.
    Try and found Aŋra, then play with the "mages" against my neighbours.
    (Probably not the best strategy considering horse and sheep ressources, but should be ok)

    Here's the situation at year 100:
    8 science (-19% various modifiers)(researched:writing, animal husbandry, mining, masonry, drama, currently researching maleficium); 427 gold (-3); 8 happy;culture 4.17/5(+0.08)(Tradition opener, folklore, scholasticism, Theism opener); 12 faith(+1); 4 GP alive (2.3%)(dual artist/sage, sage, artist, priest)
    Units: 2 warriors, 1 worker
    Cities:
    Croton (capital)
    pop=4,(25-20)f14p12g7.29s1f3c
    Buildings:Library (no specialist), monument, smokehouse (currently building stoneworks)
    Resources:centre 4f1p, improved horse 5f2p,improved sheep 5f1p1g, improved horse 5f2p, unimproved cow on marsh 4f1p [+unused marble, +unused stone]
    Gopul (founded year 96)
    pop=1, (8-5)f3p,1g0.81s;
    no buildings (currently building monument)
    resources:centre 4f1p, unimproved deer 4f1p, [unused 2*unimproved deer 4f1p,unimproved sheep 2f1g)

    I could found the Aŋra on year 108 and convert some city states, but due to a crash on year 155, did not use it much...

    Turn by turn log:
    Spoiler :
    Yr 0: founded city, queuing monument, researched writing (instant) and queue animal husb.
    Yr 1-12: exploration (pop+1,maps)
    Yr 12: Village builds monument. queuing workers.
    Yr 20: exploration finds Zanzibar
    Yr 22: animal husb researched, queue mining
    Yr26: Workers built, will improve nearby resource, queue warrior.
    Yr30: Ninkasi civ founded by AI.
    Yr31: Mor founded by AI.
    Yr33: Nezeliba civ founded by AI.
    Yr35: Kaza founded by AI.
    Yr41: The Hod and azzandara religion founded by AI.
    Yr44: Mining researched, queue masonry
    Yr45: Choosing first policy: tradition opener. *Taking my name: Theono*, capital Croton. New GP : Queen Theono (Sage/artist); take promotion bard I. Will perform until enough exp to bard 2, then craft Voluspa. Warrior build, queue library
    Yr47: Nemedia civ founded by AI.
    Yr49: Partholon civ founded by AI. Theono learns bardII, start crafting Voluspa (cultural level bonus)
    Yr62: Library build, queing smokehouse.
    Yr68: Golden age starts. Theono learns bard III.
    Yr71: Masonry resaerched (workers will improve marble and stone), queue Drama.
    Yr74: Voluspa crafted (no popup), Theono learns bard IV, then performs. New policy Folklore.
    Yr75: Theono starts crafting Vafthruthnismal (For research bonus)
    Yr77: smokehouse built, queue settler.
    Yr80: New policy: scholasticism
    Yr81: New GP Farmatyr (sage), assigned to research.
    Yr84: Farmatyr learns scholarship I, then back to research.
    Yr86: New GP Hvethnu (artist), assigned to perform.
    Yr88: Hvethnu learns bard I, then perfom.
    Yr91: Settlers built, queing stoneworks.
    Yr92: Drama resarched, queing maleficium. Farmatyr learns scholarship II, back to research.
    Yr93: Azzandara religion spreads to my capital.
    Yr95: Hrevnu learns bard II, back to perform.
    Yr96: Gopul founded, near sheep and deer. Workers going there to help.
    Yr97: New policy: Theism opener (to have a priest ready when I'll have maleficium). New GP Sigfothr, worship.
    Yr100: Vafthruthnismal crafted; Queen theono learns Bard V then performs. Sigfothr learns devotion I, then worship
    Yr101:New GP Merchant Bruth, assigned to trade
    Yr102: Azzandara religion spreads to gopul
    Yr103: Merchant bruth learns trade I then trade. Farmathyr learns scholarship III then start building Great library
    Yr105: Queen theono dies. Sage Farmathyr becomes king
    Yr106: Hvethnu learns bard III, then perform. Stone works built, queue amphitheater
    Yr108: Maleficium researched, queue currency. Sigfothr prophecy of anra. Anra spreads to all of my cities.
    Yr109: Sigforth learns curse, defile. Will send towards neighbour cities for proselitize.Bruth learns trade II. New policy; way of the weak
    Yr:115 Sigforth proselitizes zanzibar city state. New GP Hjalmar warrior. Will train warriors.
    Yr118: Hjalmar leadership I. Currency researched, queue mathematics.
    Yr120: Bruth learnstrade III, then go towards converted city state.
    Yr122: Gopul builds monument, queue shrine.
    Yr123: Bruth starts traderoute in zanzibar. Zanzibar converted to anra (thanks to prozelitize), priest towards next city. New policy: priesthood.
    Yr123-135: rio de janeiro converted to anra, trade route built in zanzibar. Croton builds amphitheater, queue marketplace.
    Yr137 : mathematics researched, queuing bronze working (need access to timber for catapult), new policy unholy order.
    Yr139: Farmatyr king dies (not naming new king, expecting a new sage to take the place)
    yr147: marketplace built, queue workshop.
    yr150: new policy:hell mandate. my priest is near an ai city. exploring its lands until my warriors and general arrive.
    yr 153: new gp sage Tronubeina . crown as queen
    yr 154: tronubeina to finish great library started by previous gp. finished instant, seems to use the bonus of last builder, not of biggest contributor.
    yr 155: popup for game crashing...stop.


    Random notes:
    - To my knowledge, the production (and every other yield) stayed in control in the game.
    - A central concept religion Aŋra with an uncommon letter ŋ is weird form a documentation point of view... The search functions in most text viewers (html, pdf...) cannot recognize it if spelled with a variant (such as Anra which you use, or Angra which would be more consistent with the usual transliteration).
    - My game was suboptimal on many points (researched Drama but did not build the amphitheatre, was up to attack cities with warriors + fallen priest).
    - Most of the naming conditions reached by AI are "first to policy" conditions. Probably a consequence of the impossibility to decline a name/trait for now.
    - Not sure of what happened when building the Great library (some delays due to short production, death of the builder GP, finished instantly by the next GP who gave its bonus). I don't know if it's fine, I didn't check regularly.
    - The 50 or so turns feel a bit like a race to naming condition. Do you mean it to be penalizing if a player gets its name late (say not before turn 70, because of bad luck such as being second to the tech)? Similarly, do you think that (in this game) the Ninkasi (named on turn 30) got advantaged compared to the Partholon (named on turn 49)? What about the names which are longer to get (such as Aldebar which require three techs)?
    - Didn't see advanced units from other civs
     
  17. Pazyryk

    Pazyryk Deity

    Joined:
    Jun 13, 2008
    Messages:
    3,584
    Thanks again Vinnz.

    Ah! the ŋ! You'd be appalled to know how much time I've spent on that already. Such a little thing to get hung up on.

    I want there to be some stress about getting a name. You need this to build settlers and to generate GPs, which then gets you a leader and enables trading with other civs. So there is supposed to be motivation to prioritize this -- otherwise players will go on too long as "Village of Man".

    However, my idea is that there should be enough different names that it is rare to be beaten to one. I know that's not exactly true now. But it can be with some adjustments to policy/tech progress (so policy civ names aren't so common) and to AI priorities. Also, there are in many cases (not all) some sort of backup names. For example 3 associated with Horseback Riding: 1st to tech, 1st to unit, and 1st to tech + Commerce policy.

    Back to modding soon. I've been busy with other stuff lately...
     
  18. 400cats

    400cats Chieftain

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2013
    Messages:
    20
    Alright, so I just found out how to enable mods on my mac and immediately downloaded and played a game of Ea. Even in early Alpha, it's pretty awesome and definitely playable despite the current lack of victory conditions. I took some notes on my first game, which I started after briefly skimming the Guide. I probably did a lot of stupid things! But anyway, here's the log:

    Spoiler :

    Ea Game#1 Alpha v.5
    Man#1/Pangaea/Small/Prince/Standard
    1: Rothulsvollum founded (but it comes up as "Village of Man"
    -Chose free Mining, Started on Masonry (38 turns)
    -In the City area: Marble, Stone, Sheep
    -2nd Ring: Sugarx2, Horses2x2
    -1 marsh, 6 forest nearby
    4: Warriors stepped on ruins, nothing happened
    7: Discovered Great Barrier Reefx2
    10: Currently, only the sheep tile produces any food; city started to starve as soon as it gained a citizen
    11: Warriors stepped on ruins, got map of area
    12: Met purple civ, screen flashed black. We were both leaderless.
    14: Barbarian Camp discovered next to purple warrior.
    16: Another barbarian spawned, run away
    -Built a monument around this time (forgot exactly when)
    20: Warriors gains Combat I
    24: Met "Alexander" civ, screen flashed black. We were also both leaderless.
    26: Worker built
    31: Iacchia civ named
    32: Masonry Researched! King Sophroniscus rises!
    -(engineer lvl 1/age 20/leadership 5/construction 5/combat engineering 5)
    -Sophronia civ, capital at Petra
    -Promoted to Leadership I
    -Started researching husbandry, building warriors
    33: Meet City-state Lhasa, calls for faith
    34: Kaza civ named
    -Adopt Policy: Tradition
    -Ristill rises to power!
    -(artist lvl 1/age 20/leadership 5/barding 5)
    -Met orange civ, screen flashed black. They don't have a leader yet.
    -Ristill begins the Voluspa
    36: Soph promoted (Leadership II)
    37: Nemedia civ discovered, they have a leader! But, no major diplomacy. I go for a Dec. of Friendship and fail.
    39: Pledge to protect Lhasa. Pretty sure it doesn't matter.
    -build quarry on marble.
    40: Barbarian at border
    -Ristill promoted (Barding I)
    41: Barbarian in city, warrior created
    -Petra demands silver!
    -Building another Warriors
    42: Enemy Warriors defeated.
    43: Nezelibia civ named
    -Nemedia civ offers a Decl. of Friendship, I accept
    -Sophronicus promoted (Leadership III), I have him improve general production
    47: Flod(?) civ named
    -Azz religion founded!
    49: build quarry on stone
    50: Animal Husbandry researched, Horseback Riding next
    52: Golden Age begins!
    -Barb camp dispersed, 25 gold
    55: Old Faithful discovered!
    -Build pasture for horses
    57: Warriors completed, settlers started
    58: A general observation. My warriors have some pretty nice bonuses, with 11-14% Morale bonus
    -Adopt Policy: Pantheism Opener! (I basically don't know what I'm doing right now, and Weave of Ea sounds pretty rad)
    -Bragi rises!
    -(druid lvl 1/age 20/Leadership 5/Ritual 5/Devotion 5/Thaumaturgy 5)
    -Reason for quick policy: Ristill finished the Epic of Voluspa. I put her on Perform duty
    -Wave of Ea adopted
    60: Bragi on Ritual of Epona (only one available, I have 2 horses so it sounded nice)
    61: A Barbarian Warriors just left their encampment and attacked my 60% health warriors. My men had 14% morale, Combat I, were in Forest, and were next to another friendly Warriors. The Barbarians were destroyed. Maybe they only noticed my unit was wounded, and didn't notice the buffs?
    -Another note: The bonus of Culture from Ristill's Perform action only shows during my opponents' turns. It's definitely still applied, but I can't see it during my own turn. This is a minor thing though
    65: Bragi learns Ea's Blessing
    67: Hildolf has risen to greatness...
    -(warrior lvl 1/Leadership 5/combat 5)
    -This is strange, because the manual said you'd almost always have a max of 3 GP at a time. Also, my meter for a Warrior popping up was only around 25 when Hildolf was born. However, all of my GP at the time were bonded to a city doing Perform, Build, and the Cult of Epona. Maybe this has something to do with it?
    68: Bragi promoted, but I don't choose anything yet. Instead, I move him to a marsh in my territory to try some terraforming (Ea's Blessing)
    69: Okkvinkalfa has risen to greatness...
    -(sage lvl1/Leadership 5/Scholarship 5)
    -I now have 5 GP, and only 2 of them are still bound to cities. I unfortunately didn't see how many Sage GP points I had at the time
    -Met City-State of Ragusa, longs for culture
    71: Hidolf promoted (Leadership I)
    -Settlers finished, Smokehouse started
    -Bragi learns Heal
    72: Adopt Policy: Earth Lore
    -Cast Ea's Blessing on Marsh, Wait 3 turns (note: I couldn't cast it until I promoted him, because the promotion box was in the way of the casting box)
    -Just noticed that Nezeliba doesn't like my kind (he is Azz), but he's still Friendly.
    74: Founded City of Rothusvallum
    -1 iron, 1 marble, 1 cattle in forest, 1 stone in the outer circle.
    -Ristill promoted (Barding IV)
    -Okkvinkalta is put on research
    75: Ea's blessing is finished on the marsh, but I am still given the option to do it again. I don't really know what it does, but I'm going to do it again anyway.
    -Okkvinkalta promoted (Scholarship I)
    -I just realized that wildlands require no improvements (they improve themselves); going back to destroy all my previous improvements
    -Ea's blessing finishes again later, giving me a Marsh 12.
    -I can't destroy improvements, oops!
    77: Barbarians attack my warriors, are severely injured again
    79: I've periodically been hearing a "mystical" noise between turns, but nothing comes up on my feed and I don't notice any changes associated with it. Maybe I am not paying attention.
    -Horseback Riding researched. Starting on Domestication
    -Building a road (apparently non-imperial) between cities (note: the "build a road" ability was available even before I researched masonry)
    -Just noticed that Cult of Epona isn't producing any Culture from horses, even though I founded it. Maybe the culture is showing up elsewhere, because I'm only looking at the tile yields for it.
    81: Bragi is building Stonehenge in Rothusvallum
    82: Ottvinkalta promoted (Scholarship II)
    83: Smokehouse at Petra finished, time for more Settlers after my pop grows in 3 turns
    84:This pops up in feed: ( -1 ) "Great Person progress was delayed by Production Shortfall!"
    -I only scanned the part about Great Works in the manual, but I remember that they draw production away from your cities. I must not have enough to support it.
    -Used Hidolf's Rally Troops against Barbarians. Very nice boost! (16%)
    85: Get the -1 Message again, so I move Bragi off of Stonehenge and send him to Bless a forest
    87: "Lhasa desires [unintelligable text: "DA_BAOEN_SI"] this is probably an epic, but I can't produce it with anyone right now
    -Policy: Animal Lore
    -I still am not getting the Horse Culture Bonus, but now all my animal wildlands are producing +1 science.
    89: I saw a "Prophecy of Va" button on Bragi's ability list and it looked cool, so I clicked it. Apparently, an unknown civilization immediately founded "a ra" religion. Also, it seems like everyone who was Azz has been converted to A ra. I think I may have accidentally made everyone evil?
    -Note: The button for the Prophecy is still available, even after I clicked it once.
    90: Just became friends with Lhasa by killing barbarians. Suddenly, I get a +8 faith bonus that manifests as +8 mana. This is probably unbalanced, and I shouldn't have been tampering with city states this early in the game's development. Fortunately, we go back to being not-friends next turn, so it's not a huge deal.
    91: Finished Monument in Rothusvallum, now producing Stoneworks.
    92: Ea Blessing'd a forest with cattle twice.
    -Bragi promoted (Terraform I)
    -Researched Domestication. Start on Currency (I'm starting to lose a bit of money)
    93: Ottvinkalta promoted (Scholarship III)
    95: Ristill dies... (about on time. She was 81)
    -I click on the continue button in the pop-up, the music stops, and the game crashed out. There's a generic "CiV quit unexpectedly..." popup. Oh well


    I'm still not very well-versed with the mod's workings and dynamics so I don't really know what I'm talking about, but here are some things I noticed after one game:

    -Somehow, I ended up with 5 simultaneous GP as Man. I know the guide said that you should usually get 3 at a time at the most. I think that by binding some GP with my cities, they were discounted from my total GP count. It could just be a fluke as well.
    -Barbarians didn't seem to factor in certain buffs that my units received, causing them to kamikaze into my slightly-wounded warriors without regard for defensive bonuses, morale, etc.
    -There were a lot of tightly-clustered resources on the map. Judging from how resources and tiles function, this definitely seems intentional (and also really cool).

    I had a blast playing this mod and figuring out what policies did what, which spells there were, how not to completely ruin your city (building improvements and then going pantheism was NOT a good idea), and just generally taking in the lore. This mod almost plays like an entirely different game from Civ; the city placement is extremely cool in this mod. I love the idea of having powerful, rich resources contrasted with unworkable plains and grasslands, so that you have to carefully plan your cities rather than just spreading randomly across the map. I've only scratched the surface with the GP generation, but what I did experience was incredibly complex and entertaining. From a story-telling standpoint, I love how you found your civilization based on what policies and techs you go after, sort of like religion in Civ 4. The "tech shrubbery" also seems to work really well in terms of letting the player create a unique civilization, rather than just researching everything possible. I'll keep posting logs whenever I finish a game. Keep up the awesome work!
     
  19. Calavente

    Calavente Richard's voice

    Joined:
    Jun 4, 2006
    Messages:
    2,786
    Location:
    France
    I love the
    "89: I saw a "Prophecy of Va" button on Bragi's ability list and it looked cool, so I clicked it. Apparently, an unknown civilization immediately founded "a ra" religion. Also, it seems like everyone who was Azz has been converted to A ra. I think I may have accidentally made everyone evil?"
    ahahah
     
  20. Pazyryk

    Pazyryk Deity

    Joined:
    Jun 13, 2008
    Messages:
    3,584
    5 GPs is not out of the range of normal. They are generated based on a shrinking probability that really starts to shrink after you have 3. I'll fix up the explanation a little.
    That was The Hod, which is the name given to the first civ that adopts Theism. They get a priest so immediately found Azzandarayasna. IIRC, they have about a 20% chance of going for Maleficium, which is definitely a turn for the worse (otherwise they will avoid it forever -- as most AI civs do). When you made the Prophecy of Va, you didn't "make them evil." More accurate to say that you "revealed them as evil". It's sort of a Schrödinger's Cat situation: the Prophecy of Va is like opening the box to look in. It's one necessary step for either of the "good" and "evil" victories (Protector and Destroyer). If you didn't do it, someone else would have anyway.

    Thanks for the feedback. You're all motivating me to put aside my other hobbies and get moving on this again. (Coming up on 3 yrs working on Éa now. Sometimes I drop it for up to a month but I always come back to it.)
     

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